Author Topic: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?  (Read 7291 times)

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Offline Lord of nothingTopic starter

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What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« on: March 22, 2022, 06:28:43 pm »
Hi
Long story Short here in Vienna we have a Thermal Bath where the Hot Water was found by accident during an search for Natural Oil. Wikipedia say the drill 900m deep: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therme_Wien
So I life on the other side of my City and I asked my self what does such a drilling would cost?
If here in the same depth hot Water would be found it would mean "free" Heating for the next Century and free Water.  :-DD
Does someone know it or maybe done if before?
Thanks
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Offline rstofer

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2022, 06:55:16 pm »
We produce a TON of electricity from geothermal sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power

I would think that drilling to these depths would be prohibitive for individuals.  I have been told that the steam/water is quite corrosive and that creates another constraint.

Our water well is 300 feet deep and newer wells are drilling to 1000 feet.  Right now, the water level is at 200 feet so we're ok, for a while.  I don't look forward to drilling further.

Gas and oil wells can go to 30,000 feet - that's a hike!

https://www.aeraenergy.com/anatomy-of-an-oil-well

 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2022, 07:20:04 pm »
I would think that drilling to these depths would be prohibitive for individuals.

Not only that, but if you're talking about individuals drilling the piece of land they own, that would just be illegal in many countries. Depending on local regulations, the "depth" of land you own is very variable, but often pretty limited.
 
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Offline Lord of nothingTopic starter

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2022, 08:26:44 pm »
Quote
the piece of land they own
Theoretical in my Country its not possible to "own" Something since the Gov. can take the Land who you life away and re purpose it. You also have to pay Tax just for "own" a Land who I would say it more pay Rent to the Gov. But beside of that dont be to political. Sure I know I must apply for an Permit but before I drive the Gov. Employee to insanity I would like know if it is affordable enough or so expensive to not think further.
Sorry I have no idea what something could cost. So before I plan way ahead in the Future its good to know if it is just a dream or it could come true.
Thanks  :-+
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Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2022, 09:15:41 pm »
I can't speak to costs in your area.  Drilling costs always vary wildly with the material being drilled, the size of the hole and required liner.  Obviously hard rock (taconite for example) is worse than sandstone and best case is loess soils found in some locations to the depths you mention.

Here in the US a ball park figure for a six inch (12 cm) borehole with a liner appropriate for domestic water would be $25/ft or about $75/meter.  But that is a very large ball park.  I would not be surprised at values 3-4 times larger or a factor of 2-3 smaller.  Doing lining and or plumbing for a hydrothermal system would undoubtedly be higher, and I believe for this type of things costs in western Europe tend to be a bit higher.
 
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Online themadhippy

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2022, 09:56:24 pm »
You got an sds drill? inch  x   1 meter long  drill bit at £15 and 899 1 meter extension rods at around a tenner each,so about £9k ,plus the leccy for your drill.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2022, 10:20:54 pm by themadhippy »
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2022, 10:52:32 pm »
Our well is 375 feet deep and it's been a dry hole for the past several years due to the drought in California. My well guy says he can dig another well, even deeper, for about USD$60,000 with no guarantee he'll hit water.
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Offline SmallCog

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2022, 03:27:42 am »
I can't speak for European prices but in Australia we wouldn't drill and case (line) a single shallow water bore for less than $10,000 but if you wanted a few of them near each other, or a bunch of neighbors all wanted them at the same time, that could bring prices down.

Irrespective of the cost to do the actual drilling (typically charged per meter) there's all the fixed costs related to millions of dollars worth of equipment, staff, etc.

Getting to about 100m would run you closer to $20,000 and be about 2 days work.

900m can be reached with a large mostly self contained truck mounted rig, but it's unlikely to be able to be drilled with compressed air so the rig will need mud pits. These can either be swimming pool sized holes dug in the land or be large tanks brought to site. The work area will need to be around 20x20m minimum with clear access for heavy vehicles and no neighbors to complain about the noise (there'll be lots)

There'll be a lot of spoil to be disposed of, it might only be quite narrow but you are digging a hole to 900m deep and it will add up. On a drill pad (area) the size about there wont be space for all of it and it will need to be taken away in trucks. I'm not costing this in my estimate below

The deeper you go the fancier the caseing (liner) of your drill hole needs to be to withstand the forces in the earth, this may end up costing as much as the drilling.

It would be somewhere around $750,000 if my former employer drilled and cased your hole in Australia, and that's only if the ground was favourable. If it was unfavourable ground we'd pass on a job like that - too much risk of things going wrong, taking too long, and costing us money given we would be charging by the meter on completion.

We actually got enquiries in regards to things like this on a semi regular basis from well meaning people who had no idea how tricky it was to do :-)
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2022, 03:56:32 am »
Here's a long thread about DIY drilling shallow wells for a DIY geothermal heat pump:
https://ecorenovator.org/forum/showthread.php?t=484
Drilling deep wells is a lot more difficult.
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Offline Someone

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2022, 06:14:18 am »
We produce a TON of electricity from geothermal sources
Compared to other sources geothermal is still a tiny tiny speck of US production around 1% of electricity or 0.3% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Balance
which is behind the world average of 1.5% of electricity and 0.5% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=World&s=Balance

So yeah, "we" produce a pitiful amount of geothermal energy, and its source/supply is extremely limited compared to alternatives:
https://www.withouthotair.com/c16/page_97.shtml
mW per square meter!

If here in the same depth hot Water would be found it would mean "free" Heating for the next Century and free Water.  :-DD
Long term production depends on how quickly you pull down on the stored energy, geothermal sources tend to get "used up" in short periods of time years/decade.
 

Offline Mazo

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2022, 08:35:44 am »
Just a reference number,a buddy of mine had a hole drilled in afaik not that bad soil for drilling.30m hole=1500EUR,so 50EUR per m.In Bulgaria.Not a drop of water unfortunately.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2022, 08:54:39 am »
We produce a TON of electricity from geothermal sources
Compared to other sources geothermal is still a tiny tiny speck of US production around 1% of electricity or 0.3% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Balance
which is behind the world average of 1.5% of electricity and 0.5% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=World&s=Balance

So yeah, "we" produce a pitiful amount of geothermal energy, and its source/supply is extremely limited compared to alternatives:
https://www.withouthotair.com/c16/page_97.shtml
mW per square meter!
Unfortunately that article got the numbers all messed up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy says that between 2MW and 10MW can be produced per well.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Lord of nothingTopic starter

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2022, 09:27:39 am »
 :-+ I would use a Heat exchanger or so.
Sure I would depend what the Mixture is and if the Water is consumable "fresh" out of the Hole.
I dont know if any Values are over the Limit like Sulfure, Lead,... or what ever could come out from the Core of the Earth.
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Offline Miyuki

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2022, 09:36:27 am »
There is an issue with deep drilling. You can cause loss of water in other wells, even kilometers away. By accidentally puncturing some deep layers.
And then you are liable for the losses. You do not want to be in this situation.

btw for water, I use an old dug well, it is really old and has water at about 10m level. It must be a hell of a work to dig it back in the day without power tools.
 

Offline Lord of nothingTopic starter

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2022, 10:02:04 am »
I guess there are no other commercial used Wells in my Area.
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Offline Someone

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2022, 10:22:56 am »
We produce a TON of electricity from geothermal sources
Compared to other sources geothermal is still a tiny tiny speck of US production around 1% of electricity or 0.3% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Balance
which is behind the world average of 1.5% of electricity and 0.5% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=World&s=Balance

So yeah, "we" produce a pitiful amount of geothermal energy, and its source/supply is extremely limited compared to alternatives:
https://www.withouthotair.com/c16/page_97.shtml
mW per square meter!
Unfortunately that article got the numbers all messed up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy says that between 2MW and 10MW can be produced per well.
Geothermal energy is not evenly distributed, highly productive wells are the anomalies. Peak power generation is not addressing the energy/lifespan issues of geothermal. A more on topic wikipedia page has the salient quote that although there is power, its uneconomic/impractical to harvest:
most of this power is too diffuse (approximately 0.1 W/m2 on average) to be recoverable
Low-grade heat has its purposes, but its not a widely exploitable and magic source of useful energy.
 

Online langwadt

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2022, 01:03:05 pm »
We produce a TON of electricity from geothermal sources
Compared to other sources geothermal is still a tiny tiny speck of US production around 1% of electricity or 0.3% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Balance
which is behind the world average of 1.5% of electricity and 0.5% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=World&s=Balance

So yeah, "we" produce a pitiful amount of geothermal energy, and its source/supply is extremely limited compared to alternatives:
https://www.withouthotair.com/c16/page_97.shtml
mW per square meter!
Unfortunately that article got the numbers all messed up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy says that between 2MW and 10MW can be produced per well.
Geothermal energy is not evenly distributed, highly productive wells are the anomalies. Peak power generation is not addressing the energy/lifespan issues of geothermal. A more on topic wikipedia page has the salient quote that although there is power, its uneconomic/impractical to harvest:
most of this power is too diffuse (approximately 0.1 W/m2 on average) to be recoverable
Low-grade heat has its purposes, but its not a widely exploitable and magic source of useful energy.


here there is an office building that uses an old well with too much nitrate for human consumption for cooling in the summer and via a heatpump heating in winter
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2022, 09:08:10 pm »
A more on topic wikipedia page has the salient quote that although there is power, its uneconomic/impractical to harvest:
most of this power is too diffuse (approximately 0.1 W/m2 on average) to be recoverable
Low-grade heat has its purposes, but its not a widely exploitable and magic source of useful energy.
here there is an office building that uses an old well with too much nitrate for human consumption for cooling in the summer and via a heatpump heating in winter
Which is (almost certainly) using the ground not as an energy source but as a thermal (energy) storage/"infinite" heatsink, that works great in isolated/sparse areas where the climate annually averages around the "comfortable" indoor temperature. When imbalanced it doesnt last forever and isnt as "infinite" as people think:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_cooling
as a utility/storage method it doesnt scale up to mid-desnity suburbs:
https://www.withouthotair.com/cE/page_302.shtml
Are you going to be the one putting energy in for the other users? a massive free-rider problem on that.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2022, 10:28:03 pm »
We produce a TON of electricity from geothermal sources
Compared to other sources geothermal is still a tiny tiny speck of US production around 1% of electricity or 0.3% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Balance
which is behind the world average of 1.5% of electricity and 0.5% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=World&s=Balance

So yeah, "we" produce a pitiful amount of geothermal energy, and its source/supply is extremely limited compared to alternatives:
https://www.withouthotair.com/c16/page_97.shtml
mW per square meter!
Unfortunately that article got the numbers all messed up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy says that between 2MW and 10MW can be produced per well.
Geothermal energy is not evenly distributed, highly productive wells are the anomalies. Peak power generation is not addressing the energy/lifespan issues of geothermal. A more on topic wikipedia page has the salient quote that although there is power, its uneconomic/impractical to harvest:
most of this power is too diffuse (approximately 0.1 W/m2 on average) to be recoverable
Again, you are not reading carefull enough: 0.1W/m2 is what is being radiated to the earths surface into space. Which is why you need to drill a deep hole in order to get closer to the core to circumvent the insulation of the earth's crust.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2022, 10:33:04 pm »
:-+ I would use a Heat exchanger or so.
Sure I would depend what the Mixture is and if the Water is consumable "fresh" out of the Hole.
I dont know if any Values are over the Limit like Sulfure, Lead,... or what ever could come out from the Core of the Earth.
Count on the water being non-potable.

There is an issue with deep drilling. You can cause loss of water in other wells, even kilometers away. By accidentally puncturing some deep layers.
And then you are liable for the losses. You do not want to be in this situation.

That is a serious concern indeed. The first thing to find out is whether you can get a permit to drill a well. In some places there are ancient natural water reservoirs that need to remain untouched.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online langwadt

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2022, 11:02:17 pm »
A more on topic wikipedia page has the salient quote that although there is power, its uneconomic/impractical to harvest:
most of this power is too diffuse (approximately 0.1 W/m2 on average) to be recoverable
Low-grade heat has its purposes, but its not a widely exploitable and magic source of useful energy.
here there is an office building that uses an old well with too much nitrate for human consumption for cooling in the summer and via a heatpump heating in winter
Which is (almost certainly) using the ground not as an energy source but as a thermal (energy) storage/"infinite" heatsink, that works great in isolated/sparse areas where the climate annually averages around the "comfortable" indoor temperature. When imbalanced it doesnt last forever and isnt as "infinite" as people think:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_cooling
as a utility/storage method it doesnt scale up to mid-desnity suburbs:
https://www.withouthotair.com/cE/page_302.shtml
Are you going to be the one putting energy in for the other users? a massive free-rider problem on that.


the ground water is 8-10'C. When used for cooling you could call it a heatsink, when used for heating it is a heat source for the heat pump

 

Offline Someone

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2022, 01:03:20 am »
Compared to other sources geothermal is still a tiny tiny speck of US production around 1% of electricity or 0.3% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Balance
which is behind the world average of 1.5% of electricity and 0.5% total:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=World&s=Balance

So yeah, "we" produce a pitiful amount of geothermal energy, and its source/supply is extremely limited compared to alternatives:
https://www.withouthotair.com/c16/page_97.shtml
mW per square meter!
Unfortunately that article got the numbers all messed up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy says that between 2MW and 10MW can be produced per well.
Geothermal energy is not evenly distributed, highly productive wells are the anomalies. Peak power generation is not addressing the energy/lifespan issues of geothermal. A more on topic wikipedia page has the salient quote that although there is power, its uneconomic/impractical to harvest:
most of this power is too diffuse (approximately 0.1 W/m2 on average) to be recoverable
Again, you are not reading carefull enough: 0.1W/m2 is what is being radiated to the earths surface into space. Which is why you need to drill a deep hole in order to get closer to the core to circumvent the insulation of the earth's crust.
Sure go deep, its hot down there, but you're depleting the stored energy. Which is why practical geothermal plants move the extraction wells around as they deplete.

Or are you going to try and argue the 100mW/m2 flux at the surface is hiding some other mechanism (the earths core is increasing in temperature over time?). Rather:
Mean heat flow is 65 mW/m2 over continental crust and 101 mW/m2 over oceanic crust. This is 0.087 watt/square metre on average (0.03 percent of solar power absorbed by Earth)
The heat of Earth is replenished by radioactive decay at a rate of 30 TW. The global geothermal flow rates are more than twice the rate of human energy consumption from all primary sources
So what replaces that energy you take out? Or is cooling the core of the earth going to have zero side effects? lolol.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2022, 01:06:14 am »
Are you going to be the one putting energy in for the other users? a massive free-rider problem on that.
the ground water is 8-10'C. When used for cooling you could call it a heatsink, when used for heating it is a heat source for the heat pump
So its likely with that imbalance of thermal demand that they are drawing down on the thermal store and it will cool down. Why are you all railing against this simple concept? Yes, its hot, but if you use that energy it is replaced very slowly.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2022, 02:31:24 am »
So its likely with that imbalance of thermal demand that they are drawing down on the thermal store and it will cool down. Why are you all railing against this simple concept? Yes, its hot, but if you use that energy it is replaced very slowly.
How long is the time constant? If it's on the order of days or weeks or more, it could make sense to "recharge" it with solar thermal.
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Offline Someone

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Re: What does drilling a Hole for Water cost here in Europe?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2022, 07:07:10 am »
So its likely with that imbalance of thermal demand that they are drawing down on the thermal store and it will cool down. Why are you all railing against this simple concept? Yes, its hot, but if you use that energy it is replaced very slowly.
How long is the time constant? If it's on the order of days or weeks or more, it could make sense to "recharge" it with solar thermal.
Its not a simple as a time constant, think a sum of infinite time constants like the model for dielectric absorption (spreading further and further into the volume). Short answer is practical storage lifetimes are months/seasonal, and real sites observe this along with changes in ground temperature on the time scales of years:
"Evaluation of Ground Temperature Changes by the Operation of the Geothermal Heat Pump System and Climate Change in Korea"
https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4441/12/10/2931/htm
Put too many users with imbalanced energy demands in the ground and it will cook or freeze (depending on which direction you push the energy), hence it only being practical if balanced or sparse/selfish/tragedy of the commons/ignoring externalities/short term (the opposite of sustainable).
 


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