What ever happened to MAPP gas?

[Ben321]

I know they don't sell it anymore, and instead sell something called Map Pro gas now instead. I also heard it burns much cooler now. Why the change? MAPP gas was supposed to be good for welding with a small rig, because it didn't need to be stored in large cylinders like acetylene, only small cylinders like propane. But for some reason MAPP gas is no longer made. Why? And unfortunately Map Pro gas doesn't actually burn hot enough to weld with (based on some temperature values I've been reading on the internet, it only burns a 100 or 200 degrees hotter than propane, whereas acetylene and MAPP gas burned a couple THOUSAND degrees hotter than propane). So now is there any good substitute for acetylene that, like MAPP gas, can actually be stored in small cylinders?

[langwadt]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/why-was-mapp-gas-discontinued.419683/

[Ben321]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/why-was-mapp-gas-discontinued.419683/

From my understanding, it was an issue (possibly a leak at the seal where the hose attaches) with some of the larger professional tanks used by major companies for welding operations (not small ones you find in a hardware store, for ordinary folks to do small welding projects in their garage). The small hardware-store-bought MAPP gas tanks were as safe as the small hardware-store-bought propane tanks, from my understanding.

For some reason, the factory stopped making the big leak-prone tanks, and then instead of just making more of the small safe tanks (like boosting production of the small tanks after discontinuing making the large tanks), they did something really stupid. They completely closed the factory. I don't know why. But I hope to find a reasonable alternative (and no, Map Pro is NOT a reasonable alternative). You can't weld with Map Pro gas, not even when using it in conjunction with an oxygen tank and an oxy+fuel rig. The flame still won't get quite hot enough to melt steel or even raw iron. It's enough to get the iron white hot (at which point it will be very soft, but not quite a liquid), so that means that even in in an oxy+fuel configuration, Map Pro gas can't weld iron. I don't even know why Map Pro gas exists. Propane is a cheaper alternative to Map Pro gas for standard torch uses that don't involve welding/melting iron or steel. So I don't know why Map Pro exists at all.

There may be some VERY RARE application, in which the small temperature difference between propane and Map Pro gas flames is important, but if there is, I don't know what it is.

[SilverSolder]

Sometimes you can be lucky and find real MAPP gas -  I found a welding store in NY years ago that had a stash.  Expensive, of course...

[Monkeh]

(based on some temperature values I've been reading on the internet, it only burns a 100 or 200 degrees hotter than propane, whereas acetylene and MAPP gas burned a couple THOUSAND degrees hotter than propane)

Rubbish. MAPP only burns that hot mixed with pure O2, just like acetylene - in open air it's only a little hotter - maybe 200C at best.

Other propylene mixes are perfectly good, if you need that much more heat you should just use acetylene.

[Ben321]

Anybody know if this Bluefire MAPP gas http://www.aerosolgas.com/p1_mapp.asp is as good as the original (now discontinued MAPP gas)? I'm surprised that they have the exact same name, because I thought MAPP gas was a trademark of the company that made the original MAPP gas. Are they chemically similar? How similar is the temperature of the flame when mixed with normal air? How about when mixed with pure oxygen from an oxygen tank in a welding rig?

[Ben321]

(based on some temperature values I've been reading on the internet, it only burns a 100 or 200 degrees hotter than propane, whereas acetylene and MAPP gas burned a couple THOUSAND degrees hotter than propane)

Rubbish. MAPP only burns that hot mixed with pure O2, just like acetylene - in open air it's only a little hotter - maybe 200C at best.

Other propylene mixes are perfectly good, if you need that much more heat you should just use acetylene.

Sorry. I thought air/oxygen burning temperatures (measured in degF) for different gasses were approximately the following:
Propane 2000/3000
Map Pro was 2200/3200
MAPP 3500/4500
Acetylene 4200/5200

[Monkeh]

How similar is the temperature of the flame when mixed with normal air? How about when mixed with pure oxygen from an oxygen tank in a welding rig?

There's a table right there on that page telling you that.

[Ben321]

How similar is the temperature of the flame when mixed with normal air? How about when mixed with pure oxygen from an oxygen tank in a welding rig?

There's a table right there on that page telling you that.

The table has:
Acetylene
Mapp
MAP/PRO
Propane
Butane
Methane

But tha ttable makes no comparison between the original MAPP gas and their substitute for MAPP gas. It does mention MAP/PRO gas, but that's different. That's the more commonly known substitute for MAPP gas that's made by Bernzomatic, but not the supposedly better substitute offered by Bluefire. There is literally ZERO comparison between the original MAPP gas, and the MAPP gas that Bluefire is offering. I'm just hoping someone here in this forum has had a chance to use BOTH of these (original MAPP, as well as Bluefire MAPP) and had the equipment needed to measure their flame temperature on the same torch for an accurate comparison.

[Ben321]

In fact I've sent them an email asking for this information. Here's the text of the email.

I saw a chart on your website of different gas burning temperatures, including Mapp gas. I'm not sure which Mapp gas that refers to though. Does it refer to your Mapp gas that's now being sold in the US, or the original Mapp gas that is no longer sold in the US? I heard that the company that made the original Mapp gas had to stop making it in the US, due to issues with their gas cylinders. But what I'm most curious about is the temperature. Does your Mapp gas burn at the same (or similar) temperature as the original Mapp gas? Could it serve as a drop-in replacement for the original, in Mapp gas welding rigs? That is, does your Mapp gas (when mixed with oxygen) burn hot enough to melt iron or steel? A temperature comparison on your website, including the flame temperatures of the original Mapp gas (with air and with pure oxygen), as well as your version of the gas (with air and with pure oxygen), could be useful in making a purchasing decision.

[Monkeh]

MAPP was never one mixture anyway. Their temperatures are within margin of error of other mixes.

If you need to weld, use acetylene. MAPP was never magic. Why people are so fixated on 'one' (many.) proprietary gas mixes I've no idea.

[ejeffrey]

I'm guessing what happened is that cheap arc welders and portable inverters/generators became a thing.  That can replace many but not all small volume users of MAPP.  High volume applications are going to use oxy-acetylene.  There are still some applications where arc welders are not suitable and acetylene is not practical but I'm not surprised that it isn't enough to justify production.

[Ben321]

MAPP was never one mixture anyway. Their temperatures are within margin of error of other mixes.

If you need to weld, use acetylene. MAPP was never magic. Why people are so fixated on 'one' (many.) proprietary gas mixes I've no idea.

There is one specific one that was supposedly really good MAPP gas, and that was the one made by Bernzomatic (same company that makes the small blue propane tank cylinders, but the MAPP gas ones were yellow instead of blue).

[SilverSolder]

[...]  air/oxygen burning temperatures (measured in degF) for different gasses were approximately the following:
Propane 2000/3000
Map Pro was 2200/3200
MAPP 3500/4500
Acetylene 4200/5200

Wikipedia states 2925 °C (5300 °F) in oxygen for the original MAPP,  vs. (3160 °C, 5720 °F) for Acetylene.   This puts the original MAPP temperature at around 92% of acetylene.  Your table puts the new MAPP at about 86% of acetylene temperature, so the new MAPP isn't as good, but obviously a lot better than propane...