Author Topic: What ever happened to TV technicians?  (Read 10156 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2022, 04:11:49 am »
When I was a boy, my Dad wanted me to fix the TV. As I recall, a couple of knobs released the back panel. I pulled the tubes out and brought them to the grocery store to be tested. Tubes were kept right in the tester cabinet. I don't remember if I fixed the thing. 

The things kids were allowed to do back in the day.  :palm:

Frankly I think kids should be allowed to do a lot more than they typically are these days. I think there are a lot of people that suffer from a sort of stunted development where they reach adulthood having no ability to go out and do basic life tasks. Kids are too sheltered now.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2022, 04:56:53 am »
If you are so sure, why don't you link it?
Thank you.
A quick search found the PA119. https://apexanalog.com/products/pa119.html
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Offline Zoli

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2022, 05:32:02 am »
If you are so sure, why don't you link it?
Thank you.
A quick search found the PA119. https://apexanalog.com/products/pa119.html
Well, slightly fells short: 4A vs 10A+, ±40V vs ±70V(+); what about the distortions(sorry not to put it up up in the previous posts), because the square wave doesn't looks too nice(overshoot)?
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2022, 08:28:18 am »
Oh that brings memories of the late 90s
Everything was soaked with nicotine
In the basement of the apartment house, I lived as a kid, was a small repair shop. Cigarette smoke come out of the window and at the night there were TVs running to test the long-term functionality.
 

Offline magic

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2022, 12:54:09 pm »
I challenge you to build the Alexander amplifier(https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/58052492001115525484056221917334an211.pdf) with current transistors, and show the original performance(output power, distorsions, bandwith).
I see a bunch of jellybeans and those weird linear IGBTs from Toshiba.

Do you think the latter are irreplaceable in this design or that they don't make 2N5551 like they used to?

BTW, Cordell's error-corrected MOSFET amplifier has been characterized in similar manner and beats this thing in most every way except DIM, apparently. That's 100% jellybean discretes, vertical MOSFET output stage.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 01:08:29 pm by magic »
 

Offline Zoli

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2022, 04:31:42 pm »
...
I see a bunch of jellybeans and those weird linear IGBTs from Toshiba.
Do you think the latter are irreplaceable in this design or that they don't make 2N5551 like they used to?
...
Either my google-fu fails me, but I cannot find any P-channel IGBT's available to buy; beside, what do you recommend to replace the MPS-Ux0's(originals, or suggested replacements are unobtanium)?
The only way I can think to replace the IGBT+MPS-U's are darlingtons; the problem with those are the fT, typically around 60MHz, which gives you a bandwith around 500kHz; the rest of the parts are available as originals or improved versions, AFAIK.
...
BTW, Cordell's error-corrected MOSFET amplifier has been characterized in similar manner and beats this thing in most every way except DIM, apparently. That's 100% jellybean discretes, vertical MOSFET output stage.
Link, please; with proper parts list, so we can discuss what is jellybean and what unobtanium.
 

Offline magic

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2022, 09:42:36 pm »
Hmm, you've got me, there is no complete parts list in the original article. It can be found on Cordell's website:
http://www.cordellaudio.com/papers/

At a quick glance, whatever JFETs he used are likely obsolete and the MOSFETs are IRF parts in TO-3 and the N-ch is obsolete so it would need to be replaced or the whole thing redesigned with newer plastic parts. I suppose you could just go to DIYAudio and ask him there if he (or anyone else for that matter) thinks an updated version would be feasible today. Maybe something has actually been built, I honestly have no clue.

P-IGBTs aren't a thing anymore, not even in switching. I just fail to see how they are supposed to be better than alternatives like ordinary power MOSFETs. (The author mentions cost as a factor). It is my understanding that IGBTs are fairly sluggish too; they are minority carrier devices, essentially a MOSFET/BJT Sziklai pair.
 

Offline Zoli

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2022, 11:23:55 pm »
Hmm, you've got me, there is no complete parts list in the original article. It can be found on Cordell's website:
http://www.cordellaudio.com/papers/

At a quick glance, whatever JFETs he used are likely obsolete and the MOSFETs are IRF parts in TO-3 and the N-ch is obsolete so it would need to be replaced or the whole thing redesigned with newer plastic parts. I suppose you could just go to DIYAudio and ask him there if he (or anyone else for that matter) thinks an updated version would be feasible today. Maybe something has actually been built, I honestly have no clue.

P-IGBTs aren't a thing anymore, not even in switching. I just fail to see how they are supposed to be better than alternatives like ordinary power MOSFETs. (The author mentions cost as a factor). It is my understanding that IGBTs are fairly sluggish too; they are minority carrier devices, essentially a MOSFET/BJT Sziklai pair.
IGBT vs. MOSFET: beside the price, the input capacity make the IGBT's favourite for the output stage; to have similar performances(SOA included), the MOSFET has multiple times the input capacity of the IGBT's: Ciss GT20D201-Y:1450pF, IXTH32P20T:14.5nF.
The start of the discussion was:
Old audio equipment is often better than new audio equipment so is often worth fixing.
I assume you're referring to build quality since modern transistors and opamps perform vastly better than old ones. They're still improving albeit well into diminishing returns.

I also read claims that old music (especially from the days of tube amps) was mastered with technical limitations of that era consumer equipment in mind and sound "wrong" on modern equipment, similar to retro games looking really poor on a modern gaming monitor.
I think at this moment we can stop, and agree, that currently a wide-band, high powered linear amplifier is a real challenge to build, specifically caused by the lack of the proper output&driver stage.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2022, 12:05:09 am »
IGBT vs. MOSFET: beside the price, the input capacity make the IGBT's favourite for the output stage; to have similar performances(SOA included),
From what I understand, IGBTs have a smaller die than a MOSFET of similar rating so I'm surprised that they have a comparable SOA. Does the "bipolar" part of the IGBT name indicate that they would be subject to second breakdown like a traditional bipolar transistor?
 

Offline Zoli

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2022, 12:27:14 am »
IGBT vs. MOSFET: beside the price, the input capacity make the IGBT's favourite for the output stage; to have similar performances(SOA included),
From what I understand, IGBTs have a smaller die than a MOSFET of similar rating so I'm surprised that they have a comparable SOA. Does the "bipolar" part of the IGBT name indicate that they would be subject to second breakdown like a traditional bipolar transistor?
Had - past tense, since the linear IGBT's became unobtanium; and I think I saw the second breakdown line on the the linear IGBT's SOA graphic.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2022, 01:44:28 am »
Apple purposely makes their products unrepairable.
If you are referring to the construction of their products, then I would have to disagree to a point.  To provide the functionality in a form factor that the market will accept, space saving alternatives are mandatory.  This does have the result of making repair more difficult - requiring a higher level of skill and/or equipment to do so - but not impossible.

If you are talking about post-purchase support, then there is a case to answer - especially when Apple take active steps to block access to resources
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Apple even got caught providing firmware updates that purposely slowed your phone down so you go out and buy a new Apple phone.
That was unconscionable.

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Apple is a company run by wankers.
Some may agree with you, others will not.  Considering the company's value and brand loyalty, they must be doing something right.

Um no. They have an official parts store and rent proper equipment to you to repair stuff with and provide service manuals:

https://www.selfservicerepair.com/
Apple did much the same sort of thing for third party repair service people - their "Authorized Service Provider Program" - but it was little more than lip service.  For those service people, the facilities provided were abysmal and the demands made upon them were draconian, to say the least.  It made a good PR stunt for those who don't read past the headlines.

How much better will this be?

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This is fairly new on the scene but they are scaling it out to most of their devices at the moment.
Breadth is nice, but how about depth?  More devices is great, but how much detail will they go into for each of those devices?

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Here’s the service manual for what I’m writing this on: https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/2000/MA2074/en_US/iphone-13-pro-07300324A-repair.pdf
The "Orderable Parts" list is rather short, IMHO.  I would like to see that expand.  It is also painfully devoid of any technical detail.

Do we know if Apple will ease on their stance regarding (for example) prohibiting chip suppliers from selling to third party repairers?

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They also give you cash back for broken parts returned so they don’t end up on the grey market and people get ripped off.
That is sensible and I applaud that move.  I see it as a brand protection move more than anything else - but they do have a brand worth protecting.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2022, 05:52:30 am »
They also give you cash back for broken parts returned so they don’t end up on the grey market and people get ripped off.

That right there is exactly how Apple maintain an iron grip on their products whilst still appearing to support right to repair.

They stick a huge premium on 'repair' parts which is then discounted on return of the faulty bits, they've been doing it for *decades*.

It's nothing to do with protecting people from getting ripped off and everything to do with trying to ensure that nobody else can repair their stuff.

I've been on the non Apple side of that shady practice and was eventually forced out of business by their repeated, baseless legal claims.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2022, 10:28:26 am »
I disagree. I think you need to look at the customer side of things and work back rather than the right to repair. The customer story is simply:

I want my phone to work like it was before I broke it.

The third party repair market has long been a race to the bottom on cost which leads to some quite horrible outcomes. The third party clone cameras and screens are generally shitty. Even if there is a genuine repair supply chain available, the independent repairers will supply the shitty parts to maintain margins. And that's where the customers walked away from it, other than the desperate and those who can't afford a reliable repairer. The outcome is a net negative for the customer almost universally.

Everyone I know has been burned at least once by this, myself inlcuded, and wants to go down the official repairs business route now. That means authorised or vendor provided repair services where possible. And Apple has become incredibly popular because it does a really good job of repairs and provides an affordable insurance hedge policy if you break your premium device which surpasses independent insurers and network insurance.

No one out there other than us cares or understands right to repair. They hire a plumber when the tap stops working. They hire a roofer when the roof leaks.

The reality is that right to repair is actually a pretty stupid thing because it compromises on numerous things: Firstly it allows the vendor to shift liability onto the end user quickly. 1y warranty, then on your own for service. Secondly it doesn't solve the problem which is device longevity and service support. Thirdly, it still pushes the environmental responsibility of the device onto the end user rather than the vendor.

We should throw right to repair in the hype bin where it belongs and force vendors to support the device for a reasonable lifetime on the software and hardware front (5 years minimum) and if they do not fulfil their obligation have a pro-rata return refund for anything that isn't serviceable ore replaceable. At the end of life, they should give you cash back and be forced to recycle it for materials.

This applies to more than just phones for ref. Everything from washing machines to cars needs environmental and consumer protection legislation, not an empty marketing policy of "right to repair"

tl;dr: we've been conned by marketing of self repair nostalgia into accepting a worst environmental and customer-centric outcome.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 10:30:49 am by bd139 »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2022, 10:38:22 am »
The "Orderable Parts" list is rather short, IMHO.  I would like to see that expand.  It is also painfully devoid of any technical detail.

Do we know if Apple will ease on their stance regarding (for example) prohibiting chip suppliers from selling to third party repairers?

That's the nature of modern devices and a big point of this thread.

At a high level, the only realistically serviceable components are at module level at this point. When I say realistically, I mean in a commercially viable scenario. No vendor is going to set up a supply chain for individual parts for board level repair. It makes no economic sense whatsoever to do this when the post-repair manufacturing test cases would need to be executed on rather large and expensive kit. What you end up with board level repair is an unvalidated system and the vendor would not risk their reputation on shipping that. Independent repairers (and I've pissed off Rossman on here before) do not do that validation and do not necessarily provide working kit after repair. It looks like it works but might not. Enough for data recovery, yes, but that's about it.

It's being terribly dishonest that a mechanical board level repair on a complex SoC is fit for purpose when you have no way of validating that other than it POSTing.

Also the default nature of supply chains is exclusive and is concerned with protecting intellectual property. If you start selling chips then your entire supply chain and IP is compromised. I certainly wouldn't entertain that approach if I was bringing a product to market that I was selling. Incidentally some of the parts, at least in my MacBook Pro are off the shelf and shipped by TI and Intel. The ASICs are however ASICs and the supply chain is not open. I have insurance and an expected lifespan, which is the correct approach to handling assets like that.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 10:40:42 am by bd139 »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2022, 02:23:15 pm »
Also the default nature of supply chains is exclusive and is concerned with protecting intellectual property. If you start selling chips then your entire supply chain and IP is compromised.
Sorry.  I don't see that as a valid concern in any way, shape or form.

Why? ... Simple.  You've already sold the chip when you sell the product!

Anybody that would be in a position to compromise IP wouldn't have a problem buying a device and ripping into the chips.  Preventing the direct sale of chips does NOTHING the protect intellectual property since the chips are already out in the wild.

Please ... tell me how you think it would.
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2022, 02:50:40 pm »
At a high level, the only realistically serviceable components are at module level at this point. When I say realistically, I mean in a commercially viable scenario. No vendor is going to set up a supply chain for individual parts for board level repair.
If you are talking about Apple here, then this, IMO, is a dumb comment .... sorry.  Nobody is suggesting Apple turn into Mouser or Digikey - just that they LET Mouser and Digikey sell the parts if Mouser and/or Digikey feel it is worth doing.

In addition, you can't be too critical at a repair industry that cannot GET original parts and have to go scrounging for whatever they can get.

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It makes no economic sense whatsoever to do this when the post-repair manufacturing test cases would need to be executed on rather large and expensive kit. What you end up with board level repair is an unvalidated system and the vendor would not risk their reputation on shipping that.
This is where one repairer can differentiate themselves from others - perhaps not by their post-repair test processes, but by their overall success (or failure) rate.  This results in a thing called a reputation - something by which a great many non-manufacturer repair organisations have distinguished themselves within an industry.  The vendor's reputation is isolated because it is the repairer's actions that are at the forefront.  When did the reputation of Ford, GM or Toyota ever suffer because the mechanic around the corner stiffed a customer on a service?

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Independent repairers (and I've pissed off Rossman on here before) do not do that validation and do not necessarily provide working kit after repair. It looks like it works but might not. Enough for data recovery, yes, but that's about it.
Maybe.  Such repairs could run for years - but it is an unknown.  The skill of the repairer has a lot to do with that.

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It's being terribly dishonest that a mechanical board level repair on a complex SoC is fit for purpose when you have no way of validating that other than it POSTing.
Even if they offer a warranty on the repair and declare any concerns they have?  If a duly informed customer is OK with that, where is the dishonesty?


Certainly, I am looking at the scenario of a repairer with some principles.  There are going to be bottom feeders - as there are in any industry.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 02:53:55 pm by Brumby »
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2022, 05:35:46 pm »
If you are talking about Apple here, then this, IMO, is a dumb comment .... sorry.  Nobody is suggesting Apple turn into Mouser or Digikey - just that they LET Mouser and Digikey sell the parts if Mouser and/or Digikey feel it is worth doing.

In addition, you can't be too critical at a repair industry that cannot GET original parts and have to go scrounging for whatever they can get.

Agree with pretty much all of that. Apple have actively sought to prevent anyone doing component level repair on their equipment by fair or foul means over the past 30-35 years that I know of, they've created the market where people have to clone components precisely by denying anyone access to spares.

I have some sympathy for the argument that module level repair is the only feasible route for home repairers but I know of companies that make very nice profits repairing warranty boards for companies like HP, Dell etc and even some mobile device manufacturers (though that is a relatively small part of their business) who would *love* to be able to get their hands on genuine Apple parts and ramp up to offer component level repairs.

 

Offline bd139

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2022, 06:20:53 pm »
I don’t think my argument was dumb. Go and look at the logic board in an M1 MacBook Air. It’s a couple of ASICs, FLASH, RAM and power management and SFA else. The component level repair isn’t viable even if skilled.

Reputation doesn’t even factor in here. That’s not a value you can add without lying about your capability to validate the repair.

People have access to spares now and everyone is complaining still  :-//

No one is ever happy  :-//

For reference Apple are slowly ramping their repair scope to all devices. They did the phones first because the market impact is the highest. It’s computers next I understand.

What I really want to see on the market is replacement port daughter boards for the recent MacBooks because that’s the thing I’m probably going to break and can replace myself. (Unlike Lenovo who solder the damn things onto the logic board now and when they go it tears the tracks off  |O)
 

Offline David_AVD

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2022, 09:20:40 pm »
Getting back closer to the original post, the number of electronics repair shops has definitely decreased over time.

Most of the A/V repair techs I know are in the 50+ year old age bracket. There has been a lack of people entering the trade for a long time now.

The interest in component level repairs from younger people just doesn't seem to be there.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2022, 10:21:43 pm »
Quote
the number of electronics repair shops has definitely decreased over time
How much of that is down to the falling price of consumer electronics? A quick google says an average black +white tv in 1970 was equal  to over 2 months pay,now your average tv is less than a weeks wages,is it really worth paying £50-£100 to get your 40" tv fixed when you can buy a new one for less than £200.
 

Offline David_AVD

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2022, 10:35:40 pm »
That's definitely part of it. I used to repair A/V gear back in the 80s' and 90s' but then people started replacing those items instead, so I pivoted to other technical areas. Now there is demand again for the repair of older gear, so it's come full circle in a way.

The other issue now is that the techs who used to repair stuff other than TVs and stereos are disappearing. That leaves very few to work on specialty gear at anything more than a board change level. What happens when the boards are NLA or 6 months leads time?
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2022, 11:09:57 pm »
That's definitely part of it. I used to repair A/V gear back in the 80s' and 90s' but then people started replacing those items instead, so I pivoted to other technical areas. Now there is demand again for the repair of older gear, so it's come full circle in a way.

The other issue now is that the techs who used to repair stuff other than TVs and stereos are disappearing. That leaves very few to work on specialty gear at anything more than a board change level. What happens when the boards are NLA or 6 months leads time?

That was the case with components from the EU for TV transmitters or test equipment, as early as the late 1980s.

A month to even notice an order from Oz, two months to finally find the part, one month to organise to place it at the very bottom of a container, one month for the shipping company to fill the container, a month in transit, followed by less than a week for the container to be emptied, so yes, just over six months.

I often thought that a fleet of fast "clipper ships", could, under sail, economically trim a couple of months off that time for small parcels.
Sony, of course, used airfreight!
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2022, 11:17:41 am »
I don’t think my argument was dumb. Go and look at the logic board in an M1 MacBook Air. It’s a couple of ASICs, FLASH, RAM and power management and SFA else. The component level repair isn’t viable even if skilled.
That's a pretty broad statement.  Replacing a shorted SMD cap is not an unrealistic possibility ... and that's not viable?

Certainly, having access to a schematic would be helpful.  Yeah, well.

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Reputation doesn’t even factor in here. That’s not a value you can add without lying about your capability to validate the repair.
While I understand the value of a validation process, I don't see why it is so essential here.  When a motor vehicle is first released, it goes through exhaustive testing, but when you change a head gasket or just replace brake pads you don't go through all that again.

There are risks - yes - inversely proportional to the level of skill utilised, but those risks will be reflected in the longer term results and it is these results which will create the reputation for that repairer.  Yes - I admit - validation would apply to each repair and a reputation is something built "after the fact".

However, validation of each and every repair will make the whole concept absurd.  A reputation built on previous results will indicate how well a customer will be looked after - and that is what really matters.  If a repairer is fair, honest, explains things to the customer and offers a warranty, then validation isn't really necessary ... IMO.

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People have access to spares now and everyone is complaining still  :-//

No one is ever happy  :-//
Yes sir, we have spares for your vehicle.  We have replacement windscreens, spark plugs and tail lights. <end-of-list>
.... and I'm supposed to be happy with that?

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For reference Apple are slowly ramping their repair scope to all devices. They did the phones first because the market impact is the highest. It’s computers next I understand.
Increasing products included is to be commended, but without more depth, to me it feels more like a PR stunt than a genuine effort.  I call what they have offered - a start.  It needs more to truly be what it purports to be .... IMHO.

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What I really want to see on the market is replacement port daughter boards for the recent MacBooks because that’s the thing I’m probably going to break and can replace myself. (Unlike Lenovo who solder the damn things onto the logic board now and when they go it tears the tracks off  |O)
The more the merrier!


Anyway, getting back on topic - If manufacturers (such as Apple) are more forthcoming with support for repair, we could see a resurgence in the repair industry as people with the interest and ability will have fewer issues chasing parts.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2022, 12:05:27 pm »
Yes sir, we have spares for your vehicle.  We have replacement windscreens, spark plugs and tail lights. <end-of-list>
.... and I'm supposed to be happy with that?

Given the profusion of lights with funky shapes, I wouldn't presume they would have spares available at a reasonable price.

A replacement for a Toyota Yaris 2003's exhaust system from the manufacturer is >£1000, not far off the value of the car. Fortunately I found someone that could fix the faulty bit for a sensible sum.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Brumby

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Re: What ever happened to TV technicians?
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2022, 12:42:37 pm »
Fortunately I found someone that could fix the faulty bit for a sensible sum.
Was there a validation process performed before you took delivery after the repair?
 


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