What happens when your cloud service just pulls the plug - Insteon gone

[xrunner]

If you don't know already, Insteon is a set of devices that let you control lights and other devices via a wireless link to a central hub. I've probably had the system for 6 - 8 years or so.

Last week my Insteon hub's LED went red, indicating it couldn't communicate with the Mothership (Insteon's servers). After troubleshooting locally I searched online to see if others had the same issue. They did. Long story short - they just pulled the plug and quit with no notice to customers. Phone is disconnected, emails not answered.

Problem is, using their components, you cannot "bypass" the hub with the type of topology they designed, even though you have an app on your phone, she no work that way captain. I did have all my timers set up and they are still working from the memory in the hub, but they cannot be altered any longer and individual lights cannot be turned on/off remotely. No Insteon server - no worky.

Some guy even drove by the Office in SoCal (Irvine, CA) and verified they all skedaddled off and shut down. I think there might be some hacky ways around it but my plan now is to go with another system and move on. A system that does not depend on the cloud of course.

Beware the Cloud! 

Below is a link explaining it or you can go to Reddit and read more if you are so inclined -

Insteon pulls the plug

[kripton2035]

if you really need a cloud, make your own private cloud on a NAS device. or be prepared to something like that ! (i.e. make backups if possible)

[Towger]

Just thank your self luck they just control your lights etc.  I have had a couple of customers on over the years, in a panic at the companies they used to host their back office (accounts, payroll, stock control etc) functions in the 'Cloud' suddenly decided to shut down.

[PKTKS]

What to expect?

A CLOUD  is just a single node of catastrophe ...

Rationale of it it is obviously by now:
-  Remove all control from USER/CUSTOMER to landlord business man
- Deprecate as a whole  all de facto Internet services ( Mail FTP SSH remote protocols.. etc IRC..)
- Replace all the now deprecated  legacy services with "New cloud modern"  business ones..

Things are converging fast to such pre locked  devices  offering modern  services..

Business - cheap and dirt ones

Paul

[free_electron]

Z-wave. There is no cloud command and control server. It's in your home.

[xrunner]

Z-wave. There is no cloud command and control server. It's in your home.

Yes, and there are others I'm checking out. Back in pre-history I had, I think it was, X10. When I read about Insteon I decided to try it out, I didn't think too hard about the cloudy part of how it worked, perhaps I was too naive.

I'd say about 3 to 4 years ago the original little hub went bad. Turned out it was a part that failed inside I think due to the high heat the unit always had. I had wondered about that heat because it did not have any vent holes in the case. They did send everyone a new hub, which did not run hot (different design) but that was when I realized oh crap - without that hub I can't even control the lights with my phone app.

So whatever I get it won't depend on the outside world to work. 

[PKTKS]

Yes  ... same bottom line of IoT  and stuff...


Deploying a anyway smart  thing at present status requires a considerable plan ahead including routers and switches ( mostly PoE) and an insanely caution on protocols deployed and how these devices will...  or definitively will not   be connected to any sort of external internet..

It was never easy.. NVRs local intranets are bullet proof..

Gateways are always unsafe nodes.


Paul

[Brumby]

This is just one of the reasons I avoid any systems that rely on external parties for ongoing operation.

Let me have everything under my own control.  Even if I miss out on updates, I know what I have will continue to work as it has.


The only subscriptions I've ever indulged have been for Electronics Australia and similar magazines.  Once those subscriptions expired (or the business folded) I simply received nothing further - but all my previously received material was still fully accessible.

[Jr460]

Not happy with the direction of Insteon.  However I have a house full of it, works just fine, never used their service or hubs, I have an ISY944 that does all the stuff and is also a Z-Wave controller, so I'm slowly moving over to Z-wave.   Again nothing in terms of a cloud service, it is all local.   I hit up the ISY from Roomie Remote if I want to do something from a a Phone.

[Bassman59]

Last week my Insteon hub's LED went red, indicating it couldn't communicate with the Mothership (Insteon's servers). After troubleshooting locally I searched online to see if others had the same issue. They did. Long story short - they just pulled the plug and quit with no notice to customers. Phone is disconnected, emails not answered.

Ah, the whole IoT landscape will be littered with the detritus left behind when cloud-based service providers like Insteon shut down. Insteon was not the first and won't be the last.

Seriously -- what did end users expect? Obviously they expected that their ~$50 IoT gadgets would work forever.

But think it through. These hardware gadgets get introduced and they require the cloud service because that's how they get the "access your devices from anywhere!" to work. But that cloud service costs money and the hardware gadgeteers were loathe to sell a product that also required a monthly subscription fee to maintain that cloud service. Of course at some point they realize that yeah, they can't keep subsidizing the cloud service that is just bleeding cash, so they have two options: Do what Wink did and say "pay us or your shit stops working," or just shut down.

The obvious question: "who didn't see this coming from a mile away?"

It's why you have to be careful and choose IoT devices that don't require talking to the cloud for access. The Ikea TRADFRI things are like that. I don't know what else.

I notice that Insteon products are still being sold -- their website is up (the forum is not!) and there are links to big box stores and to the rain forest for Insteon-compatible products. It's a mine field to figure out what devices will work with local-only access and which require the cloud.

[bdunham7]

It's not just small, shady companies that 'pull the plug'.  Ford turned off the 3G-based mobile data system for my 8 year old car (they had previously upgraded it from 2G to 3G, obviously thinking 90 days ahead like most of the corporate world) without any notice or mention.  The relatively minor feature set that used this simply stopped working.  Not exactly confidence inspiring when a company that size thinks it's OK to just walk away from their products--although I predicted that they would do exactly this when we bought the car.  I said it would become 'abandonware', as it was a low-volume EV that they mostly outsourced.  I'm sure their management, to the extent that they are even aware of them, sincerely wishes that they didn't exist.

The cloud is a trap and I can't believe people stilll go for it.  My files are physically on my hard drives.  The few server-involved remote systems I do have, are fully controllable locally, so if I do lose the server I can still use them.  And even then, nothing terribly important.  Imagine the chaos if larger cloud-based companies started to go away.  We're not exactly prepared for the apocalypse.

[kripton2035]

I have a postgres database in a local NAS. and then lots of small esp8266 modules that measure or switch things in the house, each one acting as a web server and interacting with some others if needed. the database records the values along time, and I can control anything with a simple web browser on any device around the world, after initiating a vpn connection to the house. simple and in total control. not even need for mqtt or alike.

[PKTKS]

not just the "cloud is a trap.."

All these cell phone based gizmos.. they require you to be signed in the cloud to do anything ...

And not really a surprise OS vendors are requiring same shit...

You will just not be able to boot without a "connection" ..

and these new "chips"   inside plain mobos..

Or we deal with it now and DITCH ALL THIS SHIT for good..

or..  is plain simple  to see what and from whom is coming ahead..

Not a surprise..  why people accept these insanely shit overpriced gizmos...

Paul

[Bassman59]

It's not just small, shady companies that 'pull the plug'.  Ford turned off the 3G-based mobile data system for my 8 year old car

I think it's less that Ford turned off the 3G than the network providers turned it off.

In this case, it's the dependence on "someone else's network" that screwed this. I think at this point, everybody should understand that every cellular data network will not be around
forever, and probably not around for the lifetime of the product -- your car -- that uses it.

And you're right -- management wishes the feature didn't exist. Were they unaware that these networks are not forever? Were they willfully selling a product they knew they couldn't support?

How long until the cellular hardware in early Tesla models stops being functional because the network providers decided they don't want to support the older networks? This is going to be a shit show.

[Monkeh]

It's not just small, shady companies that 'pull the plug'.  Ford turned off the 3G-based mobile data system for my 8 year old car

I think it's less that Ford turned off the 3G than the network providers turned it off.

In this case, it's the dependence on "someone else's network" that screwed this. I think at this point, everybody should understand that every cellular data network will not be around
forever, and probably not around for the lifetime of the product -- your car -- that uses it.

And you're right -- management wishes the feature didn't exist. Were they unaware that these networks are not forever? Were they willfully selling a product they knew they couldn't support?

How long until the cellular hardware in early Tesla models stops being functional because the network providers decided they don't want to support the older networks? This is going to be a shit show.

Imagine if they designed it with modular hardware which could be upgraded in the future if necessary. Wait, that would involve intending the vehicles to remain on the road more than a few years, silly idea.

[bdunham7]

I think it's less that Ford turned off the 3G than the network providers turned it off.
How long until the cellular hardware in early Tesla models stops being functional because the network providers decided they don't want to support the older networks? This is going to be a shit show.

I think it is up to the car manufacturers to support their product by offering an upgrade of the cellular modem as required.  In Ford's case, they knew that AT&T was shutting off the 3G network, but in response they simply disabled the MyFordMobile website on the same day without even an explanation--the website simply no longer loads.  The car can communicate with WiFi, so I still would have had some use of the remote features when it was at home.  I would have paid a reasonable amount for a 4G modem.  But instead I'll simply live without the few doodads that the app provided.

[jonpaul]

a single EMP attack could kill all cloud, internet and devices over an entire continent or country

Back to,1950, vacuum tubes will still  work fine..

Checkout Starfish Prime Pacific nuclear test in 1952

Jon

[xrunner]

Last week my Insteon hub's LED went red, indicating it couldn't communicate with the Mothership (Insteon's servers). After troubleshooting locally I searched online to see if others had the same issue. They did. Long story short - they just pulled the plug and quit with no notice to customers. Phone is disconnected, emails not answered.

Ah, the whole IoT landscape will be littered with the detritus left behind when cloud-based service providers like Insteon shut down. Insteon was not the first and won't be the last.

Seriously -- what did end users expect? Obviously they expected that their ~$50 IoT gadgets would work forever.

But think it through. These hardware gadgets get introduced and they require the cloud service because that's how they get the "access your devices from anywhere!" to work. But that cloud service costs money and the hardware gadgeteers were loathe to sell a product that also required a monthly subscription fee to maintain that cloud service. Of course at some point they realize that yeah, they can't keep subsidizing the cloud service that is just bleeding cash, so they have two options: Do what Wink did and say "pay us or your shit stops working," or just shut down.

The obvious question: "who didn't see this coming from a mile away?"

It's why you have to be careful and choose IoT devices that don't require talking to the cloud for access. The Ikea TRADFRI things are like that. I don't know what else.

I notice that Insteon products are still being sold -- their website is up (the forum is not!) and there are links to big box stores and to the rain forest for Insteon-compatible products. It's a mine field to figure out what devices will work with local-only access and which require the cloud.

Yep Insteon devices are being sold, probably a mass dumping on Ebay until unsuspecting people realize what happened. Right in that it wasn't subscription so after the product is sold they have to pay to support it on the cloud. How many years 5, 10, 20 ... wait this ain't gonna be profitable!

It's a really skanky way to dump people with no notice though. OK you are going to close down, shit happens, can 't you tell your customers a month in advance so they can prepare?

You know the first day it happened I went to their status page to check it -

https://www.insteon.com/systemstatus

It still shows "All services Online" no known issues.

 

[SilverSolder]

Unfortunately, only a minority of tech savvy people will be smart enough to avoid the "cowboy cloud" trap...

Imagine the conversation with a car dealer in the future...  "What do you mean, you don't want any Internet connectivity in the vehicle???"


...I just bought a Garmin GPS navigator for my car, because its built in GPS is getting long in the tooth and using Waze/Google Maps is hard on the phone (gets hot).  Wow, what a pleasure!   -  Boots quickly, doesn't need connectivity (built-in maps), doesn't display advertisements.  Optionally connects to your phone for traffic updates.

There are still companies around that make quality stuff without trying to make you their slave for all future....   find them, and support them by buying their products!

[SiliconWizard]

Anyone falling for cloud services for no good reason (do you really need a remote server to control your local devices?) just deserves what they get: privacy issues, unsollicited changes, failures, company pulling the plug...

Funny thing is that the little benefits it has for the end-user can be more efficiently implemented with purely local solutions. Most of those cloud solutions are absurd from an energy point of view, yet we have no problem promoting that heavily while pretending we care for the environment.

And, this cloud stuff lays the groundwork for a society of total surveillance.

Consider yourself lucky when one such service fails, and it gives you the opportunity to reflect on that. For now, most of the cloud services are on a voluntary basis. Unless there's a big change, it'll be mandatory soon enough.

[TimFox]

Luckily, I never encountered this company.  I loathe companies that go under but can't be bothered to remove their website or mention that they have ceased business.

[bson]

Nothing wrong with cloud services, but like any external dependency you need to look closely to see who it is you're dependent on, and what the risks are.  Garmin is a cloud service also - the maps you download are in S3 or GCS or similar, the traffic updates are licensed from yet another party by Garmin - and delivered using cloud provisioned services.  If Garmin goes so do these services.  Cloud or not doesn't matter, it can be AWS, GCP or a private data center (and in-house cloud provisioning).  Garmin though would do an orderly shutdown, give you advance notice, perhaps discounts on replacements, or if they're acquired the acquirer will.  They're in it for the long term and want customers to buy an assortment of Garmin products, and be in it for future product generations as well.  The customers as much as their products is what makes them valuable and a good investment.

You just need to be a little more selective.  Or accept this might just go away one day.  Really small startups though in this situation will often open source the bare essentials, as a sort of guarantee against exactly this.  (Which you can then go spin up yourself on AWS or wherever.)

[bson]

Luckily, I never encountered this company.  I loathe companies that go under but can't be bothered to remove their website or mention that they have ceased business.

Or stick their backend source tree on gitlab before they turn off the lights.  Especially since it's probably there already.

[SilverSolder]

I just read an article about people leaving subscription video services (Netflix and the like) in droves, as inflationary pressures rise.

At the same time, apparently, vinyl records had a boom year in 2021, the best sales since 1986!  ...  and even CDs are making a comeback, with the first year on year sales increase since 2004. 

Funny old world!

[xrunner]

I just read an article about people leaving subscription video services (Netflix and the like) in droves, as inflationary pressures rise.

At the same time, apparently, vinyl records had a boom year in 2021, the best sales since 1986!  ...  and even CDs are making a comeback, with the first year on year sales increase since 2004. 

Funny old world!

That's inspiring. You know what? I'm gonna unplug my lamps from the Insteon dimmer modules and do something crazy. I'm going to turn the lights on and off the old fashion way - using the light switch!

 

[NiHaoMike]

I think there might be some hacky ways around it but my plan now is to go with another system and move on. A system that does not depend on the cloud of course.

Tear down that hub and let's see if the community can figure out an easy hack to make it useful again.

[CatalinaWOW]

It is going to be fun when the clouds with much larger market penetration (Alexis, Google Home and a couple others) do the same thing.  Particularly for the folks whose door locks are under those controls.

[daqq]

Today on why "IoT is a Bad Idea in its current form, episode #34109"...

[xrunner]

Tear down that hub and let's see if the community can figure out an easy hack to make it useful again.

I can open it up and post pics if you want a cheap thrill. Here's a pic of the little bugger as it sits now, red light still glowing, still controlling the lights via my programmed schedule that cannot be altered. But as I said I want to move on to another system. I don't want to mess with it until I get something else, I've got a few alternatives in mind. Perhaps in a few days I'll have decided on a new direction & starter kit to swap out and get me going with another system. Whatever it is will be able to be controlled from the cloud but not dependent on it in any other way.


Here's a few more links of the news, for anyone here or guests that might come across this thread searching for reasons why -

The smart home company Insteon has vanished.

The entire company seems to have abruptly shut down just before the weekend, breaking users' cloud-dependent smart-home setups without warning. Users say the service has been down for three days now despite the company status page saying, "All Services Online." The company forums are down, and no one is replying to users on social media.

As Internet of Things reporter Stacey Higginbotham points out, high-ranking Insteon executives, including CEO Rob Lilleness, have scrubbed the company from their LinkedIn accounts. In the time it took to write this article, Lilleness also removed his name and picture from his LinkedIn profile. It seems like that is the most communication longtime Insteon customers are going to get.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/04/shameful-insteon-looks-dead-just-like-its-users-smart-homes/

Oh yea and if you are unsuspecting and factory reset the little bugger read this  -

Furthermore, troubleshooting steps that users have taken have done further damage. A factory reset of the company's hubs requires a server connection to complete. With the servers down, there is no way for the initial setup after the reset to complete.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/04/18/smarthome-firm-and-early-homekit-partner-insteon-is-dead-with-no-warning-to-customers

It seems that Insteon’s leadership is ignoring the situation. Or, at the very least, avoiding backlash from angry customers. The Insteon “leadership bios” page now shows a 404 error, and as Stacey on IOT notes, Insteon CEO Rob Lilleness no longer lists the company in his LinkedIn profile. Other higher-ups at the company list that their job ended in April of 2022. (I should note that Rob Lilleness bought Insteon and Smartlabs in 2019, promising big things for the smart home brands.)

Insteon also appears to have shut down its forum and terminated its phone service. Smartlabs and Smarthome.com, which are associated with Insteon, are similarly unreachable. Additionally, Reddit users in Irvine say that the Insteon offices are closed, though the closure hasn’t been confirmed.

https://www.reviewgeek.com/115308/insteon-may-have-joined-the-list-of-failed-smart-home-companies/

[dbctronic]

Current and future legislation around the world will no doubt tackle this issue by forcing manufacturers to at least provide for a minimum period of minimal service when they go belly up. This could create a market for companies that take over cloud services, and could also, in some cases, force companies to remain in business as zombie corporations to at least provide the service.
Who wants to depend on such service? Remember Radio Shack? The government forced it to become a zombie corporation so they could pay off creditors. They were a treat to deal with...

Either way, contract legacy service or zombie service, you just know you'll be in excellent hands. 

[hans]

Ironically, if the IoT hub has bad security.. it should be 'trivial' to redirect any outgoing cloud requests to a local NAS, and "clone" the hub API functions to get a working system. Especially if all requests are done to somekind of dumb HTTP server or something..
Problem is, the main hub is down.. so how to figure out what kind of response to give. It's all a massive pain. So even though I say "trivial".. anything different  is almost impossible to clone while being honest about time/energy investment. It's still a lot of work and messing around. And all that to avoid a pile of e-waste because of another companies bad design decisions.

Nonetheless, the amount of smart cloud devices you see is insanity (like a doorbell). Imagine if any of those companies go bankrupt, or another narcissist joins the boards of directors.. and then wants to buy the whole company because he/she wants to everything different.
When can we have regulations that forbids IoT products to use the internet for it's daily operations? (only firmware updates allowed, no behaviour tracking, advertising, or core functions)

[NiHaoMike]

Ironically, if the IoT hub has bad security.. it should be 'trivial' to redirect any outgoing cloud requests to a local NAS, and "clone" the hub API functions to get a working system. Especially if all requests are done to somekind of dumb HTTP server or something..
Problem is, the main hub is down.. so how to figure out what kind of response to give. It's all a massive pain. So even though I say "trivial".. anything different  is almost impossible to clone while being honest about time/energy investment. It's still a lot of work and messing around. And all that to avoid a pile of e-waste because of another companies bad design decisions.

I was thinking reverse engineer it and make an open source firmware for it.

[MrMobodies]

Problem is, using their components, you cannot "bypass" the hub with the type of topology they designed, even though you have an app on your phone, she no work that way captain. I did have all my timers set up and they are still working from the memory in the hub, but they cannot be altered any longer and individual lights cannot be turned on/off remotely. No Insteon server - no worky.

Some guy even drove by the Office in SoCal (Irvine, CA) and verified they all skedaddled off and shut down. I think there might be some hacky ways around it but my plan now is to go with another system and move on. A system that does not depend on the cloud of course.

They worked fine a decade ago without this "cloud"/managed crap before so why are they set to depend on it.
It's sounds incredibly stupid to me.

I always thought of these sorts of things as a scam waiting to happen.

They can pack up, go and not give you control over the gear that you "brought" what you think you owned which ceases to function and your rights to use it effectively taken away.

If I can't set it up myself, it can't work inhouse and support a set of standards to work other equipment, provided with a means of with the recovery when it fails and for when they no longer exist then they can screw it and this is why I refuse to "buy"/pay for crap like this.

I wonder what would happen if they didn't use the word "cloud" to describe it but one more sensible like "locked down camera" or "non user managed solution".

Sounds to me like disgusting behaviour:

First investigated by IoT reporter Stacey Higginbotham, Insteon’s community forums appear to be down and a number of its high-profile executives have removed all reference to their Insteon employment from their LinkedIn profiles.

I wonder why or is it that they are afraid and want to run away?

[xrunner]

Dave now has a video about Insteon up -

[ebastler]

Not sure whether it has already been mentioned -- there may be workarounds which can keep your Insteon system going. According to techcentral:

The main piece of advice for owners of Insteon products is to not factory reset their devices because first-time set-up requires a connection to Insteon servers. Resetting Insteon devices that are already set up could mean the device is rendered unrecoverable if the company doesn’t restore its services.

The easiest solution to move away from the Insteon network appears to be with the open source home automation and device management software Home Assistant. Some users reported being able to use the software and have all their devices aggregated and working again in just a few hours.

[Gregg]

Inste-on is now inste-gone; who could have predicted this type of corporate behavior? 

The bottom line is that corporations have too much protection from liability, too little ethics and too much incentive to make a profit above all other motives.  The only solution would be to keep corporations from buying politicians and to make marketing truthful --- good luck with that! 

Meanwhile caveat emptor…. 

[Halcyon]

That's inspiring. You know what? I'm gonna unplug my lamps from the Insteon dimmer modules and do something crazy. I'm going to turn the lights on and off the old fashion way - using the light switch!

The true definition of a "smart home".

[EEVblog]

The CEO LInkedIn is now completely gone.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/roblilleness/

[hans]

That's inspiring. You know what? I'm gonna unplug my lamps from the Insteon dimmer modules and do something crazy. I'm going to turn the lights on and off the old fashion way - using the light switch!

The true definition of a "smart home".

Peak "smart home" I've heard was some guy installing smart lamps with motion sensors on the smallest room of the house. And light switches? Humpf, I've got smart everything, so why would you need one of those ugly plastic plates on the wall? Let's plaster+tile over them.
Of course one day his server went down. So he couldn't turn on the light if he wanted to, even though he needed to...

Now personally I do use some smarthome stuff. Just some basic dimmable lamps from IKEA. But they have a fallback: if the motion sensor in the kitchen acts up, you can turn off/on the power in a brief sec, and the lamp powers up normally.
Likewise, you can set up lamps to go on/off at certain times (e.g. sunset or turning on TV), but there always needs to be a sane fallback to something physical.

[xrunner]

The CEO LInkedIn is now completely gone.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/roblilleness/

He's got a lot more scrubbing to do. The Insteon website is still up - why?  Oh they feel for the users and left it up for the documentation. 

https://www.insteon.com/

I guess he/they can't get it shut down. His name is easily found there by searching areas like press releases -

“Insteon’s inherent interoperability with systems and devices makes it easy to extend one’s home IoT devices to the automobile,” said Rob Lilleness, CEO of Insteon. “Our latest integration with EVEConnect solution for Tesla provides our customers with even more options of controlling their lights and other smart devices. And Tesla is just the beginning.”

https://www.insteon.com/press-releases-blog/2018/1/23/insteon-support-for-tesla-with-eveconnect?rq=lilleness

I'm probably going to go with a Lutron Caseta system. Simple and has good reviews, can work from the cloud but it doesn't need it locally. I didn't go crazy with Insteon, I just had 4 dimmer modules plugged in to automate a few lights in the house.

[oPossum]

https://www.insteon.com/news2022

In 2019, the onset of the global pandemic brought unforeseen disruption to the market, but the company continued to move forward. However, the subsequent (and enduring) disruption to the supply chain caused by the pandemic proved incredibly difficult and the company engaged in a sales process in November, 2021. The goal was to find a parent for the company and continue to invest in new products and the technology. The process resulted in several interested parties and a sale was expected to be realized in the March timeframe. Unfortunately, that sale did not materialize. Consequently, the company was assigned to a financial services firm in March to optimize the assets of the company.

[JustSquareEnough]

Just leaving this here in case someone comes across it. Insteon devices can be used without the cloud/hub, its the reason I chose them actually because you can set them up locally with no subscription, internet, cloud.  Its unfortunate they wont be producing devices anymore though.

How do you do it?
you need an Insteon Power Line Modem (PLM) 2413u(usb) or 2413s (serial). They are already going for stupid prices on ebay...
https://www.smarthome.com/products/powerlinc-modem-insteon-2413s-serial-interface-dual-band

you need to run Home Assistant (completely free and open source) you can control all of your insteon devices locally from within side your network!
https://www.home-assistant.io
https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2022/04/19/for-insteon-users/

what we need now is the firmware for the PLM and reverse engineer the PLM hardware. because as long as we have the PLM and or a clone we can control all legacy Insteon devices without Insteon the company or the cloud.


-David

[free_electron]

The CEO LInkedIn is now completely gone.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/roblilleness/

meh, the internet never forgets thanks to the wayback machine

https://web.archive.org/web/20180203231620/http://www.insteon.com/leadership-bios

[JustSquareEnough]

Here is a tear down / cap repair of the 2413U:


fccid: sbp2413u
fcc docs: https://fccid.io/SBP2413U

[Halcyon]

That's inspiring. You know what? I'm gonna unplug my lamps from the Insteon dimmer modules and do something crazy. I'm going to turn the lights on and off the old fashion way - using the light switch!

The true definition of a "smart home".

Peak "smart home" I've heard was some guy installing smart lamps with motion sensors on the smallest room of the house. And light switches? Humpf, I've got smart everything, so why would you need one of those ugly plastic plates on the wall? Let's plaster+tile over them.
Of course one day his server went down. So he couldn't turn on the light if he wanted to, even though he needed to...

Now personally I do use some smarthome stuff. Just some basic dimmable lamps from IKEA. But they have a fallback: if the motion sensor in the kitchen acts up, you can turn off/on the power in a brief sec, and the lamp powers up normally.
Likewise, you can set up lamps to go on/off at certain times (e.g. sunset or turning on TV), but there always needs to be a sane fallback to something physical.

I use motion sensors in some areas of the house such as outside or in the garage but for all those things, I always have a manual over-ride. I've had an outdoor sensor fail after a storm which caused the lights to randomly flash on and off; I want some way to manually turn that off without killing power to half the house.

[Jr460]

Better yet, you can link and un-0link most devices with a PLM.   When I first setup first things in my house that is what I did, even replacing the function of three-way switches.   The doc with a devices tells you how,

Tea said once you have a PLM and something link aan ISY944, you never want to go back to manual linking to make Insteon scenes.   


Now if someone can get figure out how to open up clubs that failed and replace the cap that I'm sure dried up, that would be super.

[Ed.Kloonk]

https://www.insteon.com/news2022

In 2019, the onset of the global pandemic brought unforeseen disruption to the market, but the company continued to move forward. However, the subsequent (and enduring) disruption to the supply chain caused by the pandemic proved incredibly difficult and the company engaged in a sales process in November, 2021. The goal was to find a parent for the company and continue to invest in new products and the technology. The process resulted in several interested parties and a sale was expected to be realized in the March timeframe. Unfortunately, that sale did not materialize. Consequently, the company was assigned to a financial services firm in March to optimize the assets of the company.

They can try and blame it on the thing all they want but the sentences before the part quoted indicates that problems were there long before that.

Dear Insteon Community,

In 2017, after many successful years, Smartlabs, Inc found itself in financial difficulties and the path forward was unclear. That year, Smartlabs took in additional capital and brought in new management to turn the situation around. These efforts resulted in new investment into the fortification of the technology and development of new products. The future was looking bright.

In 2019, the onset of the global pandemic brought unforeseen disruption to the market, but the company continued to move forward. However, the subsequent (and enduring) disruption to the supply chain caused by the pandemic proved incredibly difficult and the company engaged in a sales process in November, 2021. The goal was to find a parent for the company and continue to invest in new products and the technology. The process resulted in several interested parties and a sale was expected to be realized in the March timeframe. Unfortunately, that sale did not materialize. Consequently, the company was assigned to a financial services firm in March to optimize the assets of the company.

The pioneering work in smart lighting and world-class products have created an extraordinary following and community. Clearly, all Smartlabs’ employees who have worked so hard to produce such world-class products and technology hope that a buyer can be found for the company.

Although incredibly difficult, we hope that the Insteon community understands the tireless efforts by all the employees to serve our customers, and deeply apologize to the community.

[ebastler]

https://www.insteon.com/news2022

Thanks for the link to the Insteon statement. Could someone explain how the present shutdown constitutes "optimizing the assets of the company"? And if they are still looking to find a buyer, as claimed in their statement, how does running the whole cloud backend into the ground and scaring away all their users/customers help with that?

[wilfred]

https://www.insteon.com/news2022

Thanks for the link to the Insteon statement. Could someone explain how the present shutdown constitutes "optimizing the assets of the company"? And if they are still looking to find a buyer, as claimed in their statement, how does running the whole cloud backend into the ground and scaring away all their users/customers help with that?

Optimising the assets is jargon for we've had an administrator appointed to see if the company can trade out of its difficulties. Apparently it cannot and is insolvent. A lot would depend on whether suppliers and creditors are willing to be patient and are confident they won't lose more money by waiting.

Even without the cloud servers being permanently switched off I think this type of dependency is incredibly risky just to avoid flicking a light switch or turning a key in a lock. The server should be in home at the very least it should be a fallback option. It still doesn't help in a power outage.

[xrunner]

Can they get out of any legal responsibilities? Excerpt from Insteon warranty -

"Home automation devices have the risk of failure to operate, incorrect operation, or electrical or mechanical tampering. For optimal use, manually verify the device state. Any home automation device should be viewed as a convenience, but not as a sole method for controlling your home. In no event shall Seller be liable for special, incidental, consequential, or other damages resulting from possession or use of this device, including without limitation damage to property and, to the extent permitted by law, personal injury, even if Seller knew or should have known of the possibility of such damages. Some states do not allow limitations on how long an implied warranty lasts and/or the exclusion or limitation of damages, in which case the above limitations and/or exclusions may not apply to you. You may also have other legal rights that may vary from state to state."

Product Warranty

Most Insteon products carry a 2 year limited warranty. For warranty details on your specific product, please see your product manual.

Limited Warranty

Seller warrants to the original consumer purchaser of this product that, for a period of two years from the date of purchase, this product will be free from defects in material and workmanship and will perform in substantial conformity to the description of the product in this Owner’s Manual. This warranty shall not apply to defects or errors caused by misuse, neglect, improper installation, and/or use of unsupported connected devices. If the product is found to be defective in material or workmanship, or if the product does not perform as warranted above during the warranty period, Seller will either repair, replace with new or refurbished stock, or refund the purchase price, at its option, upon receipt of the product at the address below, postage prepaid, with proof of the date of purchase from an authorized Seller, and an explanation of the defect or error. Replaced units will be warranted from the original date of purchase and will not extend the original warranty. The repair, replacement, or refund that is provided for above shall be the full extent of Seller’s liability with respect to this product.

This warranty does not cover products purchased from a party that is not an authorized retailer, dealer, or distributor of Insteon products. For more details, visit www.insteon.com/authorized.

For repair or replacement during the warranty period, call 866-243-8022 with the Model # and Revision # of the device to receive a RMA# and send the product, along with all other required materials to:

Insteon
ATTN: Receiving
1621 Alton Parkway, Suite 100
Irvine, CA 92606

Limitations

The above warranty is in lieu of and Seller disclaims all other warranties, whether oral or written, express or implied, including any warranty or merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose. Any implied warranty, including any warranty of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose, which may not be disclaimed or supplanted as provided above shall be limited to the two-year of the express warranty above. No other representation or claim of any nature by any person shall be binding upon Seller or modify the terms of the above warranty and disclaimer. Home automation devices have the risk of failure to operate, incorrect operation, or electrical or mechanical tampering. For optimal use, manually verify the device state. Any home automation device should be viewed as a convenience, but not as a sole method for controlling your home. In no event shall Seller be liable for special, incidental, consequential, or other damages resulting from possession or use of this device, including without limitation damage to property and, to the extent permitted by law, personal injury, even if Seller knew or should have known of the possibility of such damages. Some states do not allow limitations on how long an implied warranty lasts and/or the exclusion or limitation of damages, in which case the above limitations and/or exclusions may not apply to you. You may also have other legal rights that may vary from state to state.

https://www.insteon.com/legal#warranty

[rsjsouza]

https://www.insteon.com/news2022

In 2019, the onset of the global pandemic brought unforeseen disruption to the market, but the company continued to move forward. However, the subsequent (and enduring) disruption to the supply chain caused by the pandemic proved incredibly difficult and the company engaged in a sales process in November, 2021. The goal was to find a parent for the company and continue to invest in new products and the technology. The process resulted in several interested parties and a sale was expected to be realized in the March timeframe. Unfortunately, that sale did not materialize. Consequently, the company was assigned to a financial services firm in March to optimize the assets of the company.

Gotta love how even the clocks are starting to be moved back to blame everything on the virus and erase history. 2019 was an year untouched by the pandemic in a global scale. Not only that but the bad financial health comes from decisions pre-virus.

Yet another PR *bs* ploy.

[MrMobodies]

Gotta love how even the clocks are starting to be moved back to blame everything on the virus and erase history.

I am hearing this talk quite recently:
Local GP surgery - no GP's available due to COVID as they were told.
Lost parcel and refusing to refund due to COVID

Then I see this a couple of days ago:
https://www.btwholesale.com/contact-us.html

COVID-19 and Openreach
All solutions that rely on new installations, modifications or repairs of key access products will be affected.
As the situation develops, we’re updating our websites with as much information as we possibly can.

Joke: Then they start talking about self driving cars where the drivers can lounge about in them and watch television whilst it self drives. - No COVID in the way for that one.

Some users who already reset their hubs while troubleshooting report being able to access the hub with the default username and password that is printed on it; however, changing login info or network settings is no longer possible.

I wonder if that is just due to just the site it depends on no longer being contactable or is it that they put these restrictions in place in an update before they shut down but didn't reach every hub?

[madires]

There's a thread with a collection of "bye-bye cloud service" reports. This is nothing new. It happens every week. Company went into bankruptcy, new product line doesn't generate enough profit, company wants to sell new products for more profit and so on. The only thing we can do is to educate people about the risks of cloud based services to make better choices in the future when choosing IoT devices.

[mac.6]

Even with local cloud and opensource solution you can experience bitrot and deprecation.
My homeassistant install regulary broke my esphome devices so I am switching away from it and use zigbee device instead (where possible).

[xrunner]

Document sent to me (and presumably all registered users of Insteon products) from enotice@creditorinfo.com  -

Excerpt -

TO ALL CREDITORS AND EQUITYHOLDERS OF SMARTLABS, INC. AND OTHER PARTIES IN INTEREST:
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that on March 22, 2022, SmartLabs, Inc. (“SmartLabs” or “Assignor”), a California
corporation (EIN: 33-0557391) with offices at 1621 Alton Parkway, Suite 100, Irvine, California 92606 United
States as assignor, made a General Assignment for the Benefit of Creditors (the “Assignment”) to SmartLabs
(ABC), LLC (“Assignee”), a California limited liability company, as assignee, pursuant to California state law. The
Assignment of Assignor previously was approved by Assignor’s stockholders holding the requisite majority of the
company’s stock. This correspondence constitutes notice under Section 228(e) of the Delaware General
Corporation Law for corporate action taken without a stockholders’ meeting by less than unanimous written
consent of the Company’s stockholders.

etc., etc., etc ...

PDF attached if you enjoy reading legal notices. 

[cdev]

 You are now entering the Debarkation Area. No talking. No smoking. Follow the orange line to the Processing Area. The next scheduled departure to the prison is in two hours. You now have the option to terminate and be cremated on the premises. If you elect this option, notify the Duty Sergeant in your Processing Area.

[xrunner]

Please dear friends - read the legal notice if you are interested once and only once. I hesitated posting it completely for fear of inducing mental stress and fatigue. I'm telling you this because I care about you all. 

[themadhippy]

Could someone be kind enough and translate it into something that at least resembles english and not legal double speak

[Nusa]

Should have just copied the other 2/3rd's of the text from the one-page pdf instead of making people look at it.

It basically says submit claims by Sept 18th if you want to chase whatever money you paid for their stuff.
Unwritten subtext is that the assets are insufficient, so expect pennies on the dollar if you get anything at all.

[cdev]

Politicians just hate admitting they are failures.  Its always somebody else's fault.

[Stray Electron]

Corporate types just hate admitting they are failures.  Its always somebody else's fault.

  Fixed it for you.  I don't see anything anywhere that this had to do with politicians.

[Monkeh]

Could someone be kind enough and translate it into something that at least resembles english and not legal double speak

"If this company owed you money tell us by this date and maybe you'll get some of it back"

[bdunham7]

Could someone be kind enough and translate it into something that at least resembles english and not legal double speak

It is a notice of an alternative form of bankruptcy under California law.  It allows the assignor and the former management to escape the scrutiny they might otherwise face in a US Bankruptcy court. 

[Monkeh]

Could someone be kind enough and translate it into something that at least resembles english and not legal double speak

It is a notice of an alternative form of bankruptcy under California law.  It allows the assignor and the former management to escape the scrutiny they might otherwise face in a US Bankruptcy court.

The usual "We screwed up, lots of employees lost their jobs, creditors lost their money, and customers lost support, but we'll take the absolute bare minimum responsibility while we go home to our mini mansions".

[bdunham7]

The usual "We screwed up, lots of employees lost their jobs, creditors lost their money, and customers lost support, but we'll take the absolute bare minimum responsibility while we go home to our mini mansions".

mini mega mansions

These guys are in Orange County.  They probably have $20M homes.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Corporate types just hate admitting they are failures.  Its always somebody else's fault.

  Fixed it for you.  I don't see anything anywhere that this had to do with politicians.

The mention of offices in Cali and admin in Delaware tells us the type of creature it was.

[Stray Electron]

The mention of offices in Cali and admin in Delaware tells us the type of creature it was.

   Nails it.  For the ones of you outside of the US, Delaware has the most "corporate friendly" laws in the US. Beware of any company incorporated there! 

[TimFox]

Data from 2019:
Over 50% of all publicly traded companies are incorporated in Delaware, as are 66.8% of the Fortune 500 and nearly 100% of US startups that have been incorporated over the last 5 years (198,450 in 2017 alone).

[free_electron]

These guys are in Orange County.  They probably have $20M homes.

They have a french cafe in their building. They probably burned their last money on overpriced paintstripper

[xrunner]

Someone wanted to see the guts of the insteon hub, so here it is. I researched the main smd components and found these parts on the Insteon hub, date printed on pcb 20170613 -

Major components on the Insteon hub pcb -

PIC32MX695F512H microcontroller

PIC18F25J10 microcontroller

PIC16F688 14-Pin Flash-Based, 8-Bit CMOS Microcontroller with nanoWatt Technology

PIC25LC256 2.5V SPI Serial EEPROM

PICSST25VF016B SPI Serial Flash (3 pieces)

Si4421 Universal ISM Band FSK Transceiver, power output +7 dBm (5 mW) The Si4421 FSK transceiver is designed to cover the unlicensed frequency bands at 433, 868 and 915 MHz

SMSC8720a Small Footprint RMII 10/100 Ethernet Transceiver

Crystals - 25, 10, 8, and 5.529 MHz (5.5296 MHz allows integer division to common baud rates)

Five empty headers J2, J4, J8 (RF ICP), J15 (PLM ICP), J19 (PIC32 ICP)


The unit does not obtain power from an external DC power supply, it is connected directly to AC mains and has it's own internal PS.

[NiHaoMike]

Looks like they took the existing designs for their PLC and RF products and added a PIC32 for the networking. Shouldn't be too difficult to make an open source firmware for it.

Or perhaps it might be easier to just take a Raspberry Pi (Zero) and add a ISM RF module? From what I have read, Insteon uses a mesh network so it just has to be within range of an existing Insteon device to get the message repeated onto PLC.

[cdev]

They didnt want people finding out how hot their hardware was running?
And ditching it?

Z-wave. There is no cloud command and control server. It's in your home.

Yes, and there are others I'm checking out. Back in pre-history I had, I think it was, X10. When I read about Insteon I decided to try it out, I didn't think too hard about the cloudy part of how it worked, perhaps I was too naive.

I'd say about 3 to 4 years ago the original little hub went bad. Turned out it was a part that failed inside I think due to the high heat the unit always had. I had wondered about that heat because it did not have any vent holes in the case. They did send everyone a new hub, which did not run hot (different design) but that was when I realized oh crap - without that hub I can't even control the lights with my phone app.

So whatever I get it won't depend on the outside world to work. 

[SL4P]

I sad this a couple of years ago….

C L O U D

Centralised Lock On User’s Data

[SL4P]

a single EMP attack could kill all cloud, internet and devices over an entire continent or country

Back to,1950, vacuum tubes will still  work fine..

Checkout Starfish Prime Pacific nuclear test in 1952

Jon

Remember, almost all consumer CLOUD junk is hosted in China.
They may close the door any time.

[xrunner]

I'm trying to use the old phrase "Every Cloud has a silver lining" here somewhere, let me work on that ... 

[ebastler]

Remember, almost all consumer CLOUD junk is hosted in China.

Is that so? I would have assumed that the major consumer brands predominantly use Amazon, Google and Microsoft cloud services, and that these are hosted in the US and in Europe.

Would you have examples of consumer-brand IoT systems which have their servers based in China?

[cdev]

Nothing, because corporations just go out of business without any accountability. Thats a thing they do. take their money and run. Thats why corporations are set up. To insulate debtors from creditors.

[cdev]

a single EMP attack could kill all cloud, internet and devices over an entire continent or country

Back to,1950, vacuum tubes will still  work fine..

Checkout Starfish Prime Pacific nuclear test in 1952

Jon

Remember, almost all consumer CLOUD junk is hosted in China.
They may close the door any time.

Its not true that "almost all cloud junk is hosted in China"  Thats untrue of US cloud services. There are lots of hosting farms in several areas  Because, there.. Its cheap... to host services in the US. It costs very little. Huge buildings filled with servers. Some areas, like Dallas, Tx. have a lot of servers. Probably because its cheap there.. hosting and power?
[/quote]

[madires]

Not really IoT, but a lot of bloatware apps preinstalled on Android phones from Chinese brands send data/telemetry back home to servers in China. And the major cloud hosters have datacenters in China too. A small IoT service might run its platform only at a specifc datacenter/location. Larger platforms are usually distributed across multiple locations for lower network latency and resiliency. If you live in Europe your IoT device would most likely talk to a server in Europe (nearest datacenter = lowest latency). When you're in China it would be a server in China. Same for US east coast, west coast and so on.

[cdev]

There seems to be a lot of them here in NJ. As of fairly recently. This is because we have fat pipes here in NJ and large hosting centers. After 9-11.

 I remember back when there was only one hosting farm and it was in a big building south of Market in San Francisco that hosted lots and lots of servers.. Ebay was located there, for example. They had extension cords going to the server rooms which were down in the basement... it was a storage building. Some parts of the building were dark, mostly. Very funky. I went there for a few job interviews. At the time I was doing a lot of job hopping.

Dice was always sending me to the same few addresses. I grew to dread going to certain addresses that I viewed as guaranteed to be wastes of my time. Because they always were.

[cdev]

"Blue" brand cell phones, for example.

Of course governments cannot regulate oil prices, which they equate with quartering troops in houses in the US. Poor people can pay up or clear out. There are lots of warm countries.

Not really IoT, but a lot of bloatware apps preinstalled on Android phones from Chinese brands send data/telemetry back home to servers in China. And the major cloud hosters have datacenters in China too. A small IoT service might run its platform only at a specifc datacenter/location. Larger platforms are usually distributed across multiple locations for lower network latency and resiliency. If you live in Europe your IoT device would most likely talk to a server in Europe (nearest datacenter = lowest latency). When you're in China it would be a server in China. Same for US east coast, west coast and so on.

How much latency is "too much"? In ms. ?  What is the effect of NUMA configuration on server latency ?

[Zero999]

Gotta love how even the clocks are starting to be moved back to blame everything on the virus and erase history.

I am hearing this talk quite recently:
Local GP surgery - no GP's available due to COVID as they were told.
Lost parcel and refusing to refund due to COVID

Then I see this a couple of days ago:
https://www.btwholesale.com/contact-us.html

COVID-19 and Openreach
All solutions that rely on new installations, modifications or repairs of key access products will be affected.
As the situation develops, we’re updating our websites with as much information as we possibly can.

Joke: Then they start talking about self driving cars where the drivers can lounge about in them and watch television whilst it self drives. - No COVID in the way for that one.

Some users who already reset their hubs while troubleshooting report being able to access the hub with the default username and password that is printed on it; however, changing login info or network settings is no longer possible.

I wonder if that is just due to just the site it depends on no longer being contactable or is it that they put these restrictions in place in an update before they shut down but didn't reach every hub?

Which is all a load of bollocks. COVID-19 didn't do any of that. At first is was the panic policies put in place and now it's just an excuse, as they've been revoked for some weeks at this point.

[madires]

How much latency is "too much"? In ms. ?  What is the effect of NUMA configuration on server latency ?

There's no simple answer, it depends on the requirements of each service. A local datacenter is roughly 30-50 ms, US-EU 100 ms and EU-Asia about 250/300 ms. The difference can be an order of magnitude. Server latency doesn't play an important role in this context as long as it's within reasonable limits. So I don't see any point in discussing memory access methods.

[cdev]

The former Clinton Administration signed the papers approving the Act enabling the WTO on December 8, 1994 So governments already agreed to this long ago. We traded our jobs for intellectual property laws.

  " “War is too important a matter to be left to the military.” it was once said.  This is to give corporations the final say, the real power.

Now its a crime to violate "patents". The owners make lots of money.

[ve7xen]

This kind of thing highlights why what we really need is more (open) standards and federation, and fewer silos.

Back in the day, the Internet operated on agreed protocols like SMTP, where anyone can stand up a server that can interoperate with everyone else's to deliver mail, and any device that wants to originate mail can connect as a user agent. All you need is an IP address and the RFC in hand to guide your implementation. Everything works together. New developments are encouraged. The best products succeed.

For a while we even had this for instant messaging with most of the major providers implementing federated XMPP.

Then the corporations decided it was better to hold users hostage, and federation basically died for everything that was not already entrenched. I am not sure how to push back, but federation & standards is the way things should be. But then you could mix and match IoT vendors in the same ecosystem, and that would be good for you as a user and I guess bad for the company that didn't get all your business.

It's the Apple model - lock people in to your ecosystem so they are forced by your lack of interoperability to buy your stuff next time too. Problem for us is that 'users' seem to love it this way, as long as the corporation uses enough fancy product design and flashy marketing as lube. Defenders come out of the woodwork to crow about how awesome these companies are whenever any talk of regulating them or trying to force them to interoperate or reduce lock-in comes up. A pro-consumer solution seems untenable.

[xrunner]

" “War is too important a matter to be left to the military.” it was once said ...

Yes it was Georges Clemenceau, Prime Minister of France during the First World War.

"“War is too important to be left to the generals”

I remember it from the movie Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

[station240]

They have a french cafe in their building. They probably burned their last money on overpriced paintstripper

Yup, that and the rent of a building in SF.
Honestly these IT companies are their own worst enemy, they could setup this office just about anywhere in the world, yet they chose a city with insane, unsustainable property prices.
And then the vital part of the service (the server and the min 2 people who would be needed to keep it running), is not a separate entity ?

I'm just sick of the amount of e-waste this nonsense business model generates.

[madires]

I'm just sick of the amount of e-waste this nonsense business model generates.

It's called "after me, the deluge". A big problem in cases like Insteon is the legal protection of IP. Possibly it will be sold to some IP troll for monetization. Any alternative firmware/service may have a hard time to fend off a greedy IP troll. For that reason some campaigners already suggested that IP of an EOLed product should become public domain. IMHO, it's not possible to simply do this because part of the IP might live on in newer product. But it should be feasible to make the hardware public domain as one can reverse engineer it anyway, and to allow any use of the hardware without the fear of litigation by the IP owner.

[cdev]

That would create a big flood of corporations attem[pting to monetize all "abandoned" common property. The powers that be now dont recognize the concept of a public domain, in case you didnt notice..

This also happened during the great enclosure.. Everything that was shared was taken away...Thats basically its intent.

[cdev]

I used to know SF very well, lived there for 30 yrs. What building are you talking about?

I agree that it became insanely expensive at the end. The intent was to drive the peons out.  Even though they paid rent, it was never enough. IT didnt keep up with inflation. So ...

[cdev]

When a "cloud service" is unavailable you need to use others, or roll your own. Ive done this many times. Learn how the web works. No law ties you to any providers services.

[cdev]

Ive found it very easy to use the Zope toolkit to make simple cloud services. Just to give an example of how to do it.

Learn CGI.

[SiliconWizard]

As I already said though, the easiest path is just not to use a cloud service if it's actually not needed, and favor local solutions.

[cdev]

As I already said though, the easiest path is just not to use a cloud service if it's actually not needed, and favor local solutions.

In the world of today cloud services are ALWAYS needed.. it seems to me..  ??

[bson]

Should have just copied the other 2/3rd's of the text from the one-page pdf instead of making people look at it.

It basically says submit claims by Sept 18th if you want to chase whatever money you paid for their stuff.
Unwritten subtext is that the assets are insufficient, so expect pennies on the dollar if you get anything at all.

You won't get anything at all.  There's a schedule used for liquidations, and things like unpaid wages, taxes, government fees and outstanding loans are at the top.  Since the company is bankrupt (meaning it can't pay its obligations) and has little capital assets (no factories, warehouses of inventory, truck fleets, rail rolling stock, etc) and probably little or no IP, chances are once its outstanding taxes are paid the employees get some portion of their outstanding wages, and then that's it.

[themadhippy]

chances are once its outstanding taxes are paid the employees get some portion of their outstanding wages, and then that's it

Dont forget the sneaky trick of an outstanding invoice for a large sum to  a company  that just happens to be owned by one of the directors  relations

[SiliconWizard]

As I already said though, the easiest path is just not to use a cloud service if it's actually not needed, and favor local solutions.

In the world of today cloud services are ALWAYS needed.. it seems to me..  ??

Uh, no.
You certainly do not need cloud services to switch your lights on and off.
You do not need them for getting the temperature or RH inside your house.
You do not need them for using a fridge, an oven or whatever.
You do not even *need* them for storing your data.

The only cloud services you actually "need" is those services that you are forced to use and that are beyond your control. Fortunately, that's still the exception rather than the norm. (But let's not hold our breath...)

[EEVblog]

As I already said though, the easiest path is just not to use a cloud service if it's actually not needed, and favor local solutions.

In the world of today cloud services are ALWAYS needed.. it seems to me..  ??

Uh, no.
You certainly do not need cloud services to switch your lights on and off.
You do not need them for getting the temperature or RH inside your house.
You do not need them for using a fridge, an oven or whatever.
You do not even *need* them for storing your data.

The only cloud services you actually "need" is those services that you are forced to use and that are beyond your control. Fortunately, that's still the exception rather than the norm. (But let's not hold our breath...)

Home automation has existed long before the cloud or the internet/web as we know it.
Any decent home alarm system even allows home automation.

[cdev]

Just thank your self luck they just control your lights etc.  I have had a couple of customers on over the years, in a panic at the companies they used to host their back office (accounts, payroll, stock control etc) functions in the 'Cloud' suddenly decided to shut down.

You can make almost any computer, including a very lightweight machine like a raspberry pi into a web server and implement your personal cloud box.. Just make sure it stays cool. Thin clients work well.. and take very liottle power.. Plus no surveillance, no google..I can esily wak you through setting up apache or nginx or a database server..

[vk6zgo]

Should have just copied the other 2/3rd's of the text from the one-page pdf instead of making people look at it.

It basically says submit claims by Sept 18th if you want to chase whatever money you paid for their stuff.
Unwritten subtext is that the assets are insufficient, so expect pennies on the dollar if you get anything at all.

As we say in Oz, "Down the gurgler"!

[darkspr1te]

Just thank your self luck they just control your lights etc.  I have had a couple of customers on over the years, in a panic at the companies they used to host their back office (accounts, payroll, stock control etc) functions in the 'Cloud' suddenly decided to shut down.

You can make almost any computer, including a very lightweight machine like a raspberry pi into a web server and implement your personal cloud box.. Just make sure it stays cool. Thin clients work well.. and take very liottle power.. Plus no surveillance, no google..I can esily wak you through setting up apache or nginx or a database server..

I Self cloud all my systems, no internet access routes for protection apart from one service for me to vpn into should i require access to any "clouded" systems , eg cctv, access control, lights, power and data services. I just dont trust a company to be there in 6 months a year.
When i started out in my current profession the company had been sold 10 trackers at great cost, company disappeared before last two had been installed and no web service was provided to use the paid for trackers. Thankfully they were plain old GT06 clones and Traccar  the open tracking system go great together. The end result actually saved a great deal of money as self hosting was free and not at $60/per month ,  per tracker. only cost moving forward was the data fees per tracker and the bonus there was locally gprs is not charged for, only 3g and up so the tracking unit still remain with their initial talk time top up 5 years later.

It's not always a win though, i have a lot of tech still unused that is no longer supported or minor firmware issues and no open solutions exist or the tech is too locked down , this is not 20year old tech, this is in most cases less than 5 years old , while not cloud services the end result is the same, more e-waste.

and don't get me started on kernel sources , that a new rabbit hole of pain.


darkspr1te

[cdev]

if you really need a cloud, make your own private cloud on a NAS device. or be prepared to something like that ! (i.e. make backups if possible)

When they go out of business, the info, all the info required to jailbreak the hardware, should become public property.. NOT useless junk..

[SiliconWizard]

if you really need a cloud, make your own private cloud on a NAS device. or be prepared to something like that ! (i.e. make backups if possible)

When they go out of business, the info, all the info required to jailbreak the hardware, should become public property.. NOT useless junk..

I'd be fully supportive of that at least for medical devices. For other kinds of products, this could be some kind of rabbit hole as far as IP is concerned.

I don't think one should ever rely too much on some service/product unless one doesn't have a choice (as with medical devices) anyway, and getting occasionally bitten by doing so is a reasonable reminder. Whatever you do, don't freaking put all your eggs in the same basket. Popular wisdom which seems to have almost completely disappeared.

[vk6zgo]

My iteration of W10 seems to have gone, following a few updates, from defaulting my files to "This Computer", to instead, sending them to "One Drive".

I still have "enough of my marbles" to say "I don't want no steenkin' One Drive", & make sure the important ones are stored locally, but plenty of older people have lost a few of theirs, & many young people never had any "marbles".

For most things that you need the 'Net to do, it probably doesn't matter, although the thought of my "Online Banking" details being on the "Cloud" is a bit worrying.
If you've lost Internet access for a while, some stuff can normally be done offline, but if all your files rely on an intact Internet connection, you are out of luck.

I'm not supposing that Microsoft will suddenly "turn up their toes" & disappear, but there is, on their previous form, the likelihood that "One drive" will change to a subscription service, so they "can hold my files to ransom"!

[xrunner]

I don't think one should ever rely too much on some service/product unless one doesn't have a choice (as with medical devices) anyway, and getting occasionally bitten by doing so is a reasonable reminder. Whatever you do, don't freaking put all your eggs in the same basket. Popular wisdom which seems to have almost completely disappeared.

I can assure you, my thinking will never be "clouded" again regarding this technology's dangers. 

[thm_w]

I'm not supposing that Microsoft will suddenly "turn up their toes" & disappear, but there is, on their previous form, the likelihood that "One drive" will change to a subscription service, so they "can hold my files to ransom"!

Onedrive files will exist on the PC they were created on, they are not deleted in the background, so there is no ransom risk here.
The subscription option already exists: if you use more than 5GB, you can pay $20/year for the 100GB account.

Privacy concerns still valid of course.

[Monkeh]

if all your files rely on an intact Internet connection, you are out of luck.

It's a good job that's not how One Drive works then, eh?

[vk6zgo]

if all your files rely on an intact Internet connection, you are out of luck.

It's a good job that's not how One Drive works then, eh?

Oops!! I saw "cloud", & my "inner Luddite" came to the fore!

[SilverSolder]

if all your files rely on an intact Internet connection, you are out of luck.

It's a good job that's not how One Drive works then, eh?

Oops!! I saw "cloud", & my "inner Luddite" came to the fore!

I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that Microsoft's cloud offering is among the "least bad" of the bunch...    they have a free offering that's better than Dropbox (mostly because Dropbox limits you to max 3 devices on a free account.   So when you buy a new phone or something...  you can't install Dropbox on it.   If you wanted to invent a policy to stop people using your product, it's hard to think of a better idea!).   

Some of the MS subscription models are (currently) so cheap that it compares "OK" with running your own server, for some purposes (e.g. 100GB for $2 a month is fine for storing critical data (encrypted!) off site, for example).   

Of course, you are at the mercy of arbitrary price increases once you get dependent on these services.  You just have to remember, when doing the math, that is isn't actually free to run your own server, and you deserve better than valuing your own time at zero as well! 

[xrunner]

Email received from group that acquired Insteon this PM -

Hello,

In case you missed my blog post, my name is Ken Fairbanks and I am leading a small group of passionate Insteon users that have successfully acquired Insteon. Like many of you, our homes are powered by Insteon’s amazing dual-mesh technology and highly configurable products.

Like you, I was outraged at the sudden loss of connectivity to my Insteon Hub without warning. Many of you discovered just the other day that the Insteon Hubs began coming back online. While we didn't intend to surprise you again, our first priority was restoring access to your hubs immediately even before we had access to send you this email. Every day more customers were giving up hope so it was critical to get that restored as soon as possible. We are aware not all functions are back online but we are actively working on it. We hope you understand this urgency and appreciate your patience.

Here's a list of Insteon Hub services we are actively working on or have completed:

    Access to Insteon Hub: Completed
    Apps available in Google Play and Apple App Store: Completed
    Push notifications: Completed
    Email notifications: Completed
    Amazon Alexa skill availability: In process
    Google Assistant availability: In process

In addition to the efforts above, we are working to see what inventory we have available as well as reaching out to factories to restart manufacturing.

Going forward we are committed to responsibly re-building the Insteon business. Our commitment to you, as part of the Insteon family, is to listen, communicate and be as transparent as possible in everything we do.

With that in mind, our immediate plan is to make the Insteon Hub services a self-sustaining business. This is where we need your help. To properly and responsibly run and support these services we will be introducing a yearly subscription fee of $39.95, or $69.95 for two years.

We are working to finalize the details of the subscription and should have more information as well as ways to purchase it by next week. Meanwhile, I would love to hear your thoughts. Please reach out here.

We will also be posting updates on Insteon’s social media accounts so if you don’t tend to check email as often, you can get updates on the Insteon blog, twitter, facebook, and reddit.

Thank you all for your patience. We look forward to sharing this new journey with you.

Best regards,

Ken Fairbanks

CEO, Insteon Technologies
Insteon logo

Insteon Technologies

29 Sonrisa, Irvine, CA 92620

[madires]

With that in mind, our immediate plan is to make the Insteon Hub services a self-sustaining business. This is where we need your help. To properly and responsibly run and support these services we will be introducing a yearly subscription fee of $39.95, or $69.95 for two years.

Rinse and repeat.

[rdsi]

I was happy to unload my ISY944 & PLM for $1,025 on eBay.  For my remaining Insteon devices I use Home Assistant to control them (I had a spare USB PLM) running in a container on my TrueNAS (Scale) server.  Works great!

[NiHaoMike]

As long as they continue to allow the devices to be used locally, I don't see the problem with it. It's OK to have optional cloud based services, holding user owned devices ransom every year without prior agreement during purchase is not.

[Kasper]

I've had an outdoor sensor fail after a storm which caused the lights to randomly flash on and off; I want some way to manually turn that off without killing power to half the house.

I used to make home automation systems.  A wireless doorbell was returned with a similar problem.  Sounded really annoying, it would ocassionally ring, sometimes in the middle of the night.  Was fairly random but more often during / after a storm.

The button net was floating because of a failed solder joint on its pullup resistor.

[SilverSolder]

There's something to be said for keeping home automation to a minimum, in the long run!

[xrunner]

I've already moved on to a Lutron system with one hub and four lamp dimmers. It's got a better app (IMHO), and it doesn't require the cloud to work. However it will control lights from the cloud if you have an internet connection on your phone. Otherwise it's local control.

It also came with two stand-alone remote control Pico switches you can link to an individual dimmer, for convenience if you don't want to use the app (another means of local control).

As has been stated, the Insteon light switches work over the cloud with the Insteon hub, that's why they stopped working when they quit the business. Well to clarify, the lights in my house didn't stop being controlled by the hub, but you got locked-out of modifying the schedule, and the app stopped working so you could not turn the lights off before the schedule would, or back on anytime you wanted to. Well sure, you could walk up to the dimmer module and push the switch. 

They work over the cloud using their system model - if you want to use some other system that works with them locally, then it's up to you to figure it out. But for people that don't want to do that, or can't go to the trouble, they want to re-enable the hub functionality for a recurring charge going into the future. That's the new businness model ...

Good Luck

[Bud]

What does that mean "a small group of passionate Insteon users that have successfully acquired Insteon" . Don't they have a legal company name in order to run this business? Sounds fishi.

[rdsi]

Hmm, maybe they are back from the dead - Insteon
If the new company can bring all their products back I'll probably stick with them...
We'll have to wait & see!

[Ed.Kloonk]

I'd only hand them money I'd be prepared to loose. The tech economy sector has now become vastly different compared to the high times during which the company was founded. The Tech industry was as fertile as it was ever going to be since the early 2000s.

[Bassman59]

With that in mind, our immediate plan is to make the Insteon Hub services a self-sustaining business. This is where we need your help. To properly and responsibly run and support these services we will be introducing a yearly subscription fee of $39.95, or $69.95 for two years.

Rinse and repeat.

They should say up front that the only way to maintain the cloud access is to charge users for it. That's what they imply by this statement, but honesty and clarity would be nice.

[eti]

Well, to be excruciatingly obvious, "da kloud" is JUST... just... other computers somewhere else. Computers routinely break down, and other people's computers are no exception to failure. No matter how "robust and fail-safe" a HUMAN designed system is, there is always that one circumstance that NO ONE saw coming, and... Er oopps ; bye bye all your data.

Relying on the "cloud" is a fool's errand. Relying on ANY media is equally so. Make MULTIPLE copies on MULTIPLE differing media formats, and spread them far and wide, if your data is life or death level.

If a flood happens (and do not think it can't), then even ALL those copies can be permanently trashed, even across all media types. Nothing in life is permanent.../ (did I digress?)

[Black Phoenix]

Well, to be excruciatingly obvious, "da kloud" is JUST... just... other computers somewhere else. Computers routinely break down, and other people's computers are no exception to failure. No matter how "robust and fail-safe" a HUMAN designed system is, there is always that one circumstance that NO ONE saw coming, and... Er oopps ; bye bye all your data.

Relying on the "cloud" is a fool's errand. Relying on ANY media is equally so. Make MULTIPLE copies on MULTIPLE differing media formats, and spread them far and wide, if your data is life or death level.

If a flood happens (and do not think it can't), then even ALL those copies can be permanently trashed, even across all media types. Nothing in life is permanent.../ (did I digress?)

Jesus fucking Christ mate, why every comment I see from you is always: big wall of text, goes into a big tangent around the subject (stating obvious things that every one here knows) and don't add anything meaningful for the discussion.

If you don't have anything of value for the discussion just do what I do in most the discussions, don't say anything...

[eti]

Well, to be excruciatingly obvious, "da kloud" is JUST... just... other computers somewhere else. Computers routinely break down, and other people's computers are no exception to failure. No matter how "robust and fail-safe" a HUMAN designed system is, there is always that one circumstance that NO ONE saw coming, and... Er oopps ; bye bye all your data.

Relying on the "cloud" is a fool's errand. Relying on ANY media is equally so. Make MULTIPLE copies on MULTIPLE differing media formats, and spread them far and wide, if your data is life or death level.

If a flood happens (and do not think it can't), then even ALL those copies can be permanently trashed, even across all media types. Nothing in life is permanent.../ (did I digress?)

Jesus fucking Christ mate, why every comment I see from you is always: big wall of text, goes into a big tangent around the subject (stating obvious things that every one here knows) and don't add anything meaningful for the discussion.

If you don't have anything of value for the discussion just do what I do in most the discussions, don't say anything...

Teach me the right way, by example… I hope you can lead by example. It seems unlikely but I don’t feel shouting and cursing is the answer. That speaks more about you than about me. I await your guidance.

[Black Phoenix]

Teach me the right way, by example… I hope you can lead by example. It seems unlikely but I don’t feel shouting and cursing is the answer. That speaks more about you than about me. I await your guidance.

Sorry but I'm not going to play your game. You will put myself at your level and then win by experience.

You look like that annoying uncle in the family reunions who no one ask his opinion but he feels the need to say them. And I close my discussion on this topic regarding the subject. I've gone enough off topic. Sorry to the rest of the users in this thread.

[eti]

Teach me the right way, by example… I hope you can lead by example. It seems unlikely but I don’t feel shouting and cursing is the answer. That speaks more about you than about me. I await your guidance.

Sorry but I'm not going to play your game. You will put myself at your level and then win by experience.

You look like that annoying uncle in the family reunions who no one ask his opinion but he feels the need to say them. And I close my discussion on this topic regarding the subject. I've gone enough off topic. Sorry to the rest of the users in this thread.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ excellent. Be blessed and have a happy day

[Kasper]

Well, to be excruciatingly obvious, [...]

Jesus fucking Christ mate [...]

I guess eti's description was accurate.  Now we just need to heed his warnings.

[gnif]

That’s why I prefer using a local server instead of a cloud. It is less expensive and less problematic in the long run. A cloud seems to be an easier solution, but its possible issues are much bigger than if you use a server.
You can develop nice AWS architectures with ...removed..., and they would look and work really nice until something happens to the cloud service. And you can never tell what will happen or when it will happen. In the case of a local server, you can at least know the possible problems and how to deal with them

Company contacted, will remove the above post once they have seen it.

[EPAIII]

But,
.....
but,
.....
But,
.....
BUT,
.....
they are selling "the cloud" as the preferred backup device!

Gee, I wonder why I never liked that idea.

if you really need a cloud, make your own private cloud on a NAS device. or be prepared to something like that ! (i.e. make backups if possible)

[xrunner]

Insteon got bought finally by a group. They started selling "subscriptions" for two years $69.95 for access to your hub (through the cloud).

I moved on to Lutron which is better IMHO and can do everything Insteon can do with the cloud or without and it has no subscription.

Here's the last email I got from them -

Hello,
 
According to our records, you are a Hub owner who has yet to subscribe to our Insteon Hub services.  This is your last reminder that if you subscribe no later than July 15, you will get a $10 coupon* that can be used towards Insteon products (once we have some in stock).
 
The free access period for everyone without a subscription is scheduled to end August 1, 2022. 
 
Here is the link to subscribe: www.insteon.com/store
 
Thank you and we sincerely hope that you will decide to continue supporting Insteon!
 
Ken
CEO, Insteon Technologies

[Ed.Kloonk]

https://iotpodcast.com/2022/08/episode-383-meet-insteons-new-ceo/

[SilverSolder]

Insteon got bought finally by a group. They started selling "subscriptions" for two years $69.95 for access to your hub (through the cloud).

I moved on to Lutron which is better IMHO and can do everything Insteon can do with the cloud or without and it has no subscription.

Here's the last email I got from them -

Hello,
 
According to our records, you are a Hub owner who has yet to subscribe to our Insteon Hub services.  This is your last reminder that if you subscribe no later than July 15, you will get a $10 coupon* that can be used towards Insteon products (once we have some in stock).
 
The free access period for everyone without a subscription is scheduled to end August 1, 2022. 
 
Here is the link to subscribe: www.insteon.com/store
 
Thank you and we sincerely hope that you will decide to continue supporting Insteon!
 
Ken
CEO, Insteon Technologies

Will Lutron be smart enough to handle the Cloudy weather intelligently?