What if someone is WRONG on this forum?

[RJSV]

   (Liked wraper's posts, on this).

   I've mentioned a couple times, on EEVBLOG, that I actually got 'Canceled', by a non-profit helper agency (services and counseling for disabled locals).  That means that when I next contacted them, about an active waiting list, the office person said that my file had been 'SHREDDED'....a pretty rude term to be dispensing considering that it took a bit to even decode what she had said. 
   Figuring out (myself) that meant I was 86'ed from services there, I realized I had previously made a wise-crack, something about they were 'bragging' about how diverse the non-profit office was, announcing to the world.
   That wise crack, meant to convey that I didn't care about that aspect, of a help provider.  Well that treatment, of myself, turned me into a walking CRITIC.  Didn't cause any stirr, mainly because I wasn't out there, screaming 'Unfair!', just was somewhat bitter, about them.

   My point is that with some folks in the general public, a 'ban' or temporary take-down, will cause a certain amount of bad will, often in the form of trash-talking, it's only natural.
My case, there, I don't know a lot of people, around town etc. so not a problem.
   But the 'bad will' effect can lead to some undeserved 'slander' that's maybe or not, harmless.
   Certainly I remember what they did to me.  Just not a big deal in my case.

[tggzzz]

   (Liked wraper's posts, on this).

   I've mentioned a couple times, on EEVBLOG, that I actually got 'Canceled', by a non-profit helper agency (services and counseling for disabled locals).  That means that when I next contacted them, about an active waiting list, the office person said that my file had been 'SHREDDED'....a pretty rude term to be dispensing considering that it took a bit to even decode what she had said.  ....

Upsetting nurse Ratched is usually a bad move...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_Ratched

[joeqsmith]

A link to the original thread for context.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/veritasium-direct-downwind-video-debunked/msg5240022/#msg5240022

if they asked the question in a new thread and refuse to admit they are wrong, should they be banned? If so, why?
...
My question is relevant and remains, should they be banned for not admitting they are wrong? And if so, why?

I wouldn't think so but it's your site.   

... esteemed Professor Lewin

I feel I was expertly trolled by him.  Why? He was going for the wow factor without giving credit to the original author. 

I have seen accounts with a history of making technical contributions, but are banned for some reason or another.  Sometimes I attempt to find out what happened but normally I am unable to locate the cause.  Guessing their offending comments get scrubbed.  So I really don't know the cause in most cases.

But I guess that's the issue, people who think people are "troublesome" and report them. There is always someone who just can't resist reporting someone they don't like and won't take their advice or admit they are wrong etc.

Based on above and previous posts, I assume this is the cause.  Too many reports.    I think I have only reported twice the entire time I have been here where someone uses the site for porn ads or the like.
   

[EEVblog]

I propose two strategies.  First, it is possible to provide "known trusted source" tags next to a poster's ID. 

That sounds like 'agent of the Ministry of Thruth' to me. I fully understand your intention to guide new users, i.e. here's someone you can trust and has a proven track record. A newbie will find that out sooner or later anyway. A badge could also work in a negative way by discouraging others from commenting or creating some sort of 'I have a badge, therefore I'm always right' mentality.

This has actually been discussed before and IIRC it was voted down adding such a feature. Most were happy with the Thanks feature to effectively rank think on an individual post level and leave it at that.

When it comes to Thanking a post (and also Hearting a comment on my Youtube videos). I don't always do that because I think a post is right, or I'm neccesarily "endorsing" that post. I also do it to just send appreciation for the effort put into the response.

[EEVblog]

Awkward question: should someone be allowed to continue beligerantly encouraging other people (especially beginners) to do things that are generally acknowledged to be dangerous?

We have a specifc rule about safety for that very reason. It's only been used once or twice, but it's there.
Everyone's level of "dangerous" is different. I famously say that anything over 12VDC scares the shit out of me. Then you have Electroboom and Photonic Induction.

[SiliconWizard]

And now the question is, what if everyone is wrong?

[EEVblog]

And now the question is, what if everyone is wrong?

We are in a simulation anyway.

[xrunner]

And now the question is, what if everyone is wrong?

If everyone is wrong, then anyone that said another person was wrong ... would be wrong. This could get complicated. 

[RJSV]

   "...things could get complicated...".   TOO LATE for stopping 'complexity' we being humans and all.
   Can be pointed out, even in the midst of the most holyest, pure, like in a church, there's often little 'Shirley' or 'Frederick' smirking, while holding up a middle finger, in defiance.
So you can't catch everything, even if you try hard.  Some, will try holding (that middle finger up), even DURING discussions on how to adjust the management.

   I guess it's related to the 'bad' zoo chimps, slinging the wet fertilizer, at shocked patrons.
I think (any) future Alien visitors might remark, of how us Humans don't wanna take orders from anyone!

[Andy Chee]

We are in a simulation anyway.

Wrong.  You are in a simulation, I'm not.

[EPAIII]

Wrong?

Just who is to say what is wrong?

It is FUNDAMENTAL to the scientific method to QUESTION what is well established and "known to be correct".

And then, when a new theory is well established, someone else comes along and kicks it in the you-know-what.

Flat earth --- Kepler --- Newton --- Heisenburg --- Einstein --- Hawkings --- Who was wrong? The only correct answer is ALL of them and ALL of the ones who question their theories. Every scientist is WRONG! And the best of them readily admit it. They still argue for their latest theories, but in their heart of hearts they know all theories will ultimately be shown to be flawed. To be WRONG!

The science is NEVER settled. It is NEVER final. It is ALWAYS subject to further question and improvement.

So to criticize someone who disagrees with the "established" science is to go AGAINST science itself. The very core of science is disagreement which brings about a better understanding. And that NEVER ends. At least not for us mere mortals. So be careful in saying someone should not disagree with the science. Disagreement IS SCIENCE!

[fourfathom]

Wrong?
[...]

Yeah, but that wind-powered vehicle can actually go directly downwind faster than the wind.  There is zero ambiguity about this fact.

[2N3055]

Awkward question: should someone be allowed to continue beligerantly encouraging other people (especially beginners) to do things that are generally acknowledged to be dangerous?

We have a specifc rule about safety for that very reason. It's only been used once or twice, but it's there.
Everyone's level of "dangerous" is different. I famously say that anything over 12VDC scares the shit out of me. Then you have Electroboom and Photonic Induction.

I'w seen a guy dropping a wrench on car battery and it made short on terminals. That was scary shit too. So yeah, no hard limit what is dangerous and not.

[.RC.]

Fanbois and girls are generally not that hard to pick out.  I do not think I am smarter then average, maybe less so, but be on forums awhile you can find the people who generally have a slant and may not be a reliable source of information.

Some forums are just slanted.  I feel these forums are slanted slightly to the more right of centre socially. But not overtly so. Or maybe I am just getting positive bias as I probably have a more individual freedoms bias.

Get into some places like Reddit and the bias can be pretty strong and stands out like daves pale buttcheeks when he is skinny dipping in his new pool at night.

[Brumby]

Is "trolling" on a thread they started actually trolling?
...
If you don't think you are getting through to someone who asked a question, then just don't reply any more.

Yes, a first poster can troll.

My opinion as well.

To me, trolling has nothing to do with any so-called "ownership" ... it is purely a matter of behaviour.

All in all it is a difficult subject with no simple answers. A big grey area in the middle. Someone has to exercise judgement and decide the "purpose" of the forum. Without that the conspiracy theorists (and others) will gradually dominate.

This forum has had the "free and open" policy since day one, and it hasn't ruined the forum. Free energy, flat earthers, crowd funding scammers etc are free to join and disuss, but they usually don't last long because they get ridiculed or ignored.
Signal to noise ratio has always been very high, and time wasting threads usually just die into obscurity.

"time wasting threads usually just die into obscurity"  This is a philosophy I try to encourage.  Sometimes it isn't easy, but adding your two cents to a futile argument simply keeps the pot stirred up.  Walking away is often the best policy.


I will say, however, that sometimes putting yourself into debate on a subject can be very useful in YOU learning more about a subject, especially supporting a point of view that you hadn't studied in detail.



My bottom line ... if it's a waste of time, walk away.  Banning is, IMHO, only appropriate when deliberate trouble-making affects the forum.  Flat-earth discussions and such aren't in this category.

[tggzzz]

Awkward question: should someone be allowed to continue beligerantly encouraging other people (especially beginners) to do things that are generally acknowledged to be dangerous?

We have a specifc rule about safety for that very reason. It's only been used once or twice, but it's there.
Everyone's level of "dangerous" is different. I famously say that anything over 12VDC scares the shit out of me. Then you have Electroboom and Photonic Induction.

A 12V car battery scares me in the wrong circumstances: drop metal across that and see how much disappears as vapour and blobs. Metal bracelets and necklaces are verboten EDIT: 2n3055 mentioned another classic: wrenches.

OTOH I have secondary school physics equipment where there is 230-400V (controlled by front panel potentiometer) on an exposed terminal. Touching that terminal with a finger causes the dekatron counters to spin It has a 5Mohm resistor in series, which is required so that a Geiger-Muller tube discharge generates a pulse, which is counted.

The particular problem encountered here is people telling beginners that floating a scope is OK, and that traditional scope probes are OK when connected to the mains. They never add the necessary pre-conditions, and - disgracefully IMHO - often belittle or deny them.

[wilfred]

Yes, but it's only a simulation to the fool that made it.  To us it's simply "the universe".

As far as the Earth is concerned I thought it was created for a race of superintelligent pan-dimensional beings that humans perceived as a pair of white mice. As for the Universe you'll have to convince me it wasn't created by the Great Green Arkleseizure.

[watchmaker]

Awkward question: should someone be allowed to continue beligerantly encouraging other people (especially beginners) to do things that are generally acknowledged to be dangerous?

We have a specifc rule about safety for that very reason. It's only been used once or twice, but it's there.
Everyone's level of "dangerous" is different. I famously say that anything over 12VDC scares the shit out of me. Then you have Electroboom and Photonic Induction.

A 12V car battery scares me in the wrong circumstances: drop metal across that and see how much disappears as vapour and blobs. Metal bracelets and necklaces are verboten EDIT: 2n3055 mentioned another classic: wrenches.

OTOH I have secondary school physics equipment where there is 230-400V (controlled by front panel potentiometer) on an exposed terminal. Touching that terminal with a finger causes the dekatron counters to spin It has a 5Mohm resistor in series, which is required so that a Geiger-Muller tube discharge generates a pulse, which is counted.

The particular problem encountered here is people telling beginners that floating a scope is OK, and that traditional scope probes are OK when connected to the mains. They never add the necessary pre-conditions, and - disgracefully IMHO - often belittle or deny them.

This is my point about having a vetted sticky that provides the essential information about how to be safe while you learn.  I was taught in one of those setups in the 1960s.  The instructor was present and taught safety at every new entry point.  Students were removed from the lab if they were careless for whatever reason (fine line between carelessness and opportunity to learn).

Today many people are coming from PC based devices to a true bench environment and have no idea what the costs can be.  To use the chainsaw analogy again:  People who buy chainsaws after a hurricane and think because they watched AxeMen or some variant they know what they are doing (in flip flops no less).

No, not everyone will read it, but it then becomes a simple link when such questions are asked.

Dave has videos that hit many of these aspects, but it might be useful if there was one self contained video or playlist.

Regards,

Dewey

[RJSV]

I noticed this topic is a 'Fast Mover', not sure if maybe there is a web site term for that kind of topic ?

   At any rate any response I've had for EPAIII for example gets old and with many other newer responders so sorry if my comments are dated, somewhat (it's only a matter of some minutes).

   My comment, RE: Antivax'er labels put on people:
   Got the usual seasonal FLU SHOT, first off it made my shoulder muscle really sore!  But now, that whole, left arm is weak and sore...the shot was in September...more than 3 months should have been sufficient for the arm muscles to recover.
   Thing is, I'm reluctant to bring the subject up, as folks are SOOO propagandized these days, (it's like a kindergarten play-pen out there these days).  I'll be labeled as an anti-vaxxing etc.etc.etc. with about 40 'slanderous' fictional labels, like racist etc.etc.etc.

   Powerful politician (you'd rec the name) using terms like 'mis-dis-information' a humourous yet pathetic symptom, of the modern stereotype Really Smart Dumb-ass ...prosecutor, doctor, Governor.

   So I'm intimidated.  Not by some individual, but I'd just rather skip the accusations; 'Anti-vax' etc. etc.  Many folks like me have gone underground these days.

   The News is saying that it's a Social Virus type affliction...then they flash a 'CoronaVirus' looking round foam thingy, to make their point.
So clever; that foam thingy, lifted straight out of the 'Covid19' images folder.

I usually SKIP the seasonal shots, altogether

[tggzzz]

I noticed this topic is a 'Fast Mover', not sure if maybe there is a web site term for that kind of topic ?

   At any rate any response I've had for EPAIII for example gets old and with many other newer responders so sorry if my comments are dated, somewhat (it's only a matter of some minutes).

   My comment, RE: Antivax'er labels put on people:
   Got the usual seasonal FLU SHOT, first off it made my shoulder muscle really sore!  But now, that whole, left arm is weak and sore...the shot was in September...more than 3 months should have been sufficient for the arm muscles to recover.
   Thing is, I'm reluctant to bring the subject up, as folks are SOOO propagandized these days, (it's like a kindergarten play-pen out there these days).  I'll be labeled as an anti-vaxxing etc.etc.etc. with about 40 'slanderous' fictional labels, like racist etc.etc.etc.

   Powerful politician (you'd rec the name) using terms like 'mis-dis-information' a humourous yet pathetic symptom, of the modern stereotype Really Smart Dumb-ass ...prosecutor, doctor, Governor.

   So I'm intimidated.  Not by some individual, but I'd just rather skip the accusations; 'Anti-vax' etc. etc.  Many folks like me have gone underground these days.

   The News is saying that it's a Social Virus type affliction...then they flash a 'CoronaVirus' looking round foam thingy, to make their point.
So clever; that foam thingy, lifted straight out of the 'Covid19' images folder.

I usually SKIP the seasonal shots, altogether

Que? What on earth has that word salad got to do with this thread? Is it intended to raise the question of what to do when someone tries to derail a thread?

On second thoughts, please don't tell us.

[MK14]

Que? What on earth has that word salad got to do with this thread? Is it intended to raise the question of what to do when someone tries to derail a thread?

On second thoughts, please don't tell us.

It seems to make a reasonable amount of sense, me.  But I'm not 100% sure, I have correctly understood what was said.  Also, I can understand, why it might not make sense, to everyone.

What I think they are saying, is that these days.  It is NOT just a problem of saying something, which might be *WRONG*, technically speaking, on the forum, or while speaking to people.
But also there is a risk, of being labeled, with some of those modern terms, such as audiophile, free energy nut, anti-vaxer, anti-5g nut job, flat-earther etc.

Just for expressing your scientific comments.

[RJSV]

Yup, you got it right.
   The frustration comes out, when (I) mimic some politician's word salad.  (I tried to refrain from long explanation, as not oriented towards  bugging people here,...(they asked that I refrain from the long-winded response, that's fair enough).

[thm_w]

Wrong?

Just who is to say what is wrong?

It is FUNDAMENTAL to the scientific method to QUESTION what is well established and "known to be correct".

And then, when a new theory is well established, someone else comes along and kicks it in the you-know-what.

Flat earth --- Kepler --- Newton --- Heisenburg --- Einstein --- Hawkings --- Who was wrong? The only correct answer is ALL of them and ALL of the ones who question their theories. Every scientist is WRONG! And the best of them readily admit it. They still argue for their latest theories, but in their heart of hearts they know all theories will ultimately be shown to be flawed. To be WRONG!

I don't know if that is the main point though, yes current theories can be flawed and we should be free to discuss alternatives, you are correct.
But is flat earth worth discussing? Its very clearly done and dusted, if you come in here spouting endless flat earth claims, and don't read the evidence showing you are wrong, should you not be banned?

[bdunham7]

But is flat earth worth discussing? Its very clearly done and dusted, if you come in here spouting endless flat earth claims, and don't read the evidence showing you are wrong, should you not be banned?

If it isn't worth discussing, then don't.  I'll admit to having been sucked into some discussions that seem silly in retrospect, but that's on me.  I wouldn't want to see people being banned to protect me from my own stupidity.  At some point a ban is necessary, but it is a drastic step that I'd like to see reserved for the most egregious cases.

[fourfathom]

I'll admit to having been sucked into some discussions that seem silly in retrospect, but that's on me.

In spite of what George Bernard Shaw said, sometimes it's fun to get down in the mud and wrestle with the pig.  For a while, anyway.