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| Kasper:
--- Quote from: IDEngineer on March 30, 2020, 07:40:31 pm ---[...] UBI is a minimum wage taken to the ultimate extreme. The difference is that while a minimum wage is a form of targeted assistance, a UBI (by definition) applies to everyone. Well, anything that applies to everyone just changes the baseline for everyone. It's like raising all of the voltages in a system by some shared amount, say by raising the common from 0V to 10V... nothing actually changes because all of the potential differences, which cause current to flow, are still the same. A potential that used to measure 5V to ground now measures 15V to 10V - same differential, same current flow. For that reason, a UBI is nothing but a devaluation of the currency as explained above. [...] --- End quote --- UBI is universal but the systems it replaces are not. That means when it is first applied, it is not a universal change to everyone. People who previously got welfare stop getting welfare. People who make tons of money get extra taxes. That is not universal. If you want an electronics example think about an op amp with input range of 5V to 15V being fed by a signal with a range of 0V to 12V. Currently, anything below 5V is clipped up to exhibiting same response as 5V (min wage workers get same money as welfare users). If you incr DC bias on the signal (apply UBI) then you remove clipping on bottom end (aka incentivize welfare users to get jobs) and add clipping on top end (aka higher taxes for higher income). People on welfare should see no big change. People on min wage should see biggest change, as they should. Currently they do way more work than people on welfare but have similar income. People of moderate wage will see relatively low change because the extra money is relatively less meaningful to them. People of extra high wage will see less income (after taxes). Ideally removing the welfare system that gives incentive to have kids and not work means society becomes more productive and that reduces the extra taxes required to pay for UBI. There should be a correlation between effort and income but our system clips on the bottom end because effort and income have different bottoms. Min effort is 0 hours/lifetime and min income is ~$1000/month or whatever welfare pays. It seems reasonable to think there could be a way to make sure people who do 40hrs of easy work / week get more money than people who do 0 hrs work / lifetime. UBI seems like a way to do that. |
| Marco:
--- Quote from: IDEngineer on March 30, 2020, 07:12:33 pm ---Just like a rising tide lifts all boats, and deflation/inflation changes the value of all currency in circulation, raising the economic baseline for literally everyone just resets the value of all transactions (as described above). --- End quote --- Not saying it's a good idea, but a shock increase to inflation rapidly decreases existing private debt (and savings). Given that private debt overhang is becoming a break on the economy that particular aspect wouldn't be so bad. Unlike sovereign debt, private debt does matter. Of course such a debt jubilee should really be combined with a restructuring of the economy to avoid debt building as much the second time. Fix real-estate, better regulate leveraged buyout, stock buy backs and dividend issues etc. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: Kasper on March 30, 2020, 10:25:55 pm --- --- Quote from: IDEngineer on March 30, 2020, 07:40:31 pm ---[...] UBI is a minimum wage taken to the ultimate extreme. The difference is that while a minimum wage is a form of targeted assistance, a UBI (by definition) applies to everyone. Well, anything that applies to everyone just changes the baseline for everyone. It's like raising all of the voltages in a system by some --- End quote --- UBI is universal but the systems it replaces are not. That means when it is first applied, it is not a universal change to everyone. People who previously got welfare stop getting welfare. People who make tons of money get extra taxes. That is not universal. --- End quote --- What stops UBI dead in it's tracks is that it needs a tax of at least 75% on income which makes it totally uninteresting to have a job. A long standing rule of economy is that tax on income has an optimum around 49% and should not exceed that number. |
| Kasper:
Drew a picture to show what I am thinking about UBI vs welfare only for people who don't work. With the current system, anyone who doesn't feel like doing lots of work is better off doing no work. Getting off welfare means more expenses (child care, transportation, tuition, etc) and less free money. With UBI, every bit of work is rewarded and people who are in the hole can see incentive to try even if they can only manage to do a bit of work. Hopefully that gets them on the right path to becomming productive instead of being stuck on welfare for generations. |
| Kasper:
--- Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2020, 10:47:23 pm --- --- Quote from: Kasper on March 30, 2020, 10:25:55 pm --- --- Quote from: IDEngineer on March 30, 2020, 07:40:31 pm ---[...] UBI is a minimum wage taken to the ultimate extreme. The difference is that while a minimum wage is a form of targeted assistance, a UBI (by definition) applies to everyone. Well, anything that applies to everyone just changes the baseline for everyone. It's like raising all of the voltages in a system by some --- End quote --- UBI is universal but the systems it replaces are not. That means when it is first applied, it is not a universal change to everyone. People who previously got welfare stop getting welfare. People who make tons of money get extra taxes. That is not universal. --- End quote --- What stops UBI dead in it's tracks is that it needs a tax of at least 75% on income which makes it totally uninteresting to have a job. A long standing rule of economy is that tax on income has an optimum around 49% and should not exceed that number. --- End quote --- Ouch. 75% would be painful. Is that 75% evenly distributed? |
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