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| Kasper:
--- Quote from: Kasper on March 30, 2020, 10:50:40 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2020, 10:47:23 pm --- --- Quote from: Kasper on March 30, 2020, 10:25:55 pm --- --- Quote from: IDEngineer on March 30, 2020, 07:40:31 pm ---[...] UBI is a minimum wage taken to the ultimate extreme. The difference is that while a minimum wage is a form of targeted assistance, a UBI (by definition) applies to everyone. Well, anything that applies to everyone just changes the baseline for everyone. It's like raising all of the voltages in a system by some --- End quote --- UBI is universal but the systems it replaces are not. That means when it is first applied, it is not a universal change to everyone. People who previously got welfare stop getting welfare. People who make tons of money get extra taxes. That is not universal. --- End quote --- What stops UBI dead in it's tracks is that it needs a tax of at least 75% on income which makes it totally uninteresting to have a job. A long standing rule of economy is that tax on income has an optimum around 49% and should not exceed that number. --- End quote --- Ouch. 75% would be painful. Is that 75% evenly distributed? --- End quote --- Does it factor in reduced costs of welfare distribution complexity, medicare and judicial system? People with no incentive to work get bored and do things that increase those costs. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: Kasper on March 30, 2020, 10:50:40 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2020, 10:47:23 pm --- --- Quote from: Kasper on March 30, 2020, 10:25:55 pm --- --- Quote from: IDEngineer on March 30, 2020, 07:40:31 pm ---[...] UBI is a minimum wage taken to the ultimate extreme. The difference is that while a minimum wage is a form of targeted assistance, a UBI (by definition) applies to everyone. Well, anything that applies to everyone just changes the baseline for everyone. It's like raising all of the voltages in a system by some --- End quote --- UBI is universal but the systems it replaces are not. That means when it is first applied, it is not a universal change to everyone. People who previously got welfare stop getting welfare. People who make tons of money get extra taxes. That is not universal. --- End quote --- What stops UBI dead in it's tracks is that it needs a tax of at least 75% on income which makes it totally uninteresting to have a job. A long standing rule of economy is that tax on income has an optimum around 49% and should not exceed that number. --- End quote --- Ouch. 75% would be painful. Is that 75% evenly distributed? --- End quote --- Likely. Unlike what communists think you can't feed the entire country from what 10 rich people make (I call myself a pragmatic socialist; but UBI goes under communism in my book). The middle class makes far more money combined so that is where the majority of the UBI money has to come from. |
| NiHaoMike:
To prevent freeloading, what about only give the basic income to working age people working for 20 hours per week or more? (Less than that can also be accepted in special cases.) |
| IDEngineer:
--- Quote from: Marco on March 30, 2020, 10:41:33 pm ---Of course such a debt jubilee should really be combined with a restructuring of the economy to avoid debt building as much the second time. --- End quote --- The "debt jubilee" I was talking about was only the US fedgov debt, and as I mentioned it should be combined with a balanced budget requirement going forward for 1) exactly the reason you mentioned, and 2) so that the rest of the world would slowly start to have faith in the USA again. You cannot have a "debt jubilee" for private debt, because just like "student loan forgiveness" it penalizes those who have properly managed their finances. Despite what they say during campaign season, every politician knows that is political suicide. Every career professional who hunkered down, behaved themselves, and worked hard to pay off their student loans will hate such politicians AND the freeloaders who got their debts wiped clean. The same would happen for people who paid off their houses vs. those who got a free mortgage payoff, people who paid cash for a used car vs. those who have $1K payments on a dream sports car, etc. There's no way to unravel that in an equitable way. And so far we're only talking about people who are debtors... what about those who saved and invested, whose money is backing up those loans? How do you make those people whole in a fair and equitable manner? I have some friends who sold their large acreage, are carrying the note, and have structured their retirement to live on the principal + interest payments (which at 30 years will outlive them). Even if you simply repaid them their principal, they'd be out all of the interest on which they've based their retirement. Then what? How is that fair to them? The entire deal was set up by a willing seller and a willing buyer at terms both found acceptable, no one feels slighted. Yet the buyers would be fools to not take advantage of a jubilee, and it's highly unlikely the contract anticipates such an event to protect the sellers. |
| IDEngineer:
--- Quote from: Kasper on March 30, 2020, 10:25:55 pm ---If you want an electronics example think about an op amp with input range of 5V to 15V being fed by a signal with a range of 0V to 12V. --- End quote --- Having "inputs" out of range makes the example meaningless. --- Quote ---It seems reasonable to think there could be a way to make sure people who do 40hrs of easy work / week get more money than people who do 0 hrs work / lifetime. --- End quote --- That happens naturally: Work zero hours and I doubt you'll have a line of people waiting to give you cash. You don't need a UBI to do that, Nature does it automatically. |
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