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Offline barycentricTopic starter

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ea6e3e22634d1327de811b9bdb1b7af6745910f0
« on: January 05, 2022, 07:17:52 am »
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« Last Edit: April 16, 2022, 04:46:24 am by barycentric »
 

Offline daqq

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2022, 07:54:16 am »
1. Faster connectivity.
2. See above.
3. See above.
4. See above.
5. See above.
6. See above.
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Offline EPAIII

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2022, 08:03:36 am »
Actually I think it is about serving more customers. More customers = more bills. And more bills = more money.

The faster thing is just a way of accomplishing that.
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 
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Offline rob77

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2022, 08:12:15 am »
Actually I think it is about serving more customers. More customers = more bills. And more bills = more money.

The faster thing is just a way of accomplishing that.

nope, it's the increasing data volume... higher resolution of pictures,videos. more data on web  sites.. that's the reason why higher speeds are needed.

in 1993 i could get along with a 14400baud modem.. that's little over 1kByte/s... nowadays 10Mbit/s(~1Mbyte/s), approx 1000 times faster is considered kind of slow.
 

Offline newbrain

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2022, 08:34:04 am »
Could someone explain it to me? Pretend there's a six-paragraph prompt with supporting details, brainstorm cloud seeds etc. below. :box:
5G: More data, more faster and with less latency, higher efficiency in power and spectrum occupation.
Some changes and simplifications in the core network.

That's enough to justify it - and by no means a complete list - as with many other things, technology advances and pushes the market, that promptly pushes technology for more.
Or is your digital camera still taking pictures in 640×480?

BTW: 5G is mostly acquired technology by now; be forward looking, and start wondering what is the point of 6G (now being actively studied, at least where I work).
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
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Offline mansaxel

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2022, 08:37:38 am »
While "faster" is certainly a part of it, that is not the big deal, AFAICT. 

The major driver is that there are large simplifications of the communications infrastructure that make both base stations and the controlling infrastructure easier and cheaper per bit transported.  Systems engineering in the different generations is different.

Timing, for instance: The Old Way was to have the SDH-derived PDH clock in a E1 or T1 circuit steer the reference clock in the RBS. Which was fine when every telco had a SDH net (because this TCP/IP thing is not something we believe to be usable for Real Telecoms) but since most telcos today provision E1's over IP it is something of a nuisance having the only part of your actual telephone infrastructure not being decommissioned rely on something that's now expensive to provision, with questionable timing accuracy to boot. 

Therefore most new build systems use PTP over Ethernet for clock steering. Now, you can put a simple IP router like the Cisco ASR920 in your base station rack, pull 2 dark fibres with 10GE to it from your backbone, and instantly, you have connectivity, timing, and clock backup (it's got a GNSS receiver as well). The ASR920 is not cheap to you or me (USD 5000 list, plus software licenses), but compared to what the telecoms manufacturers made the telcos pay for SDH, it's basically for free..

Offline newbrain

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2022, 10:14:27 am »
[...]simplifications of the communications infrastructure [...] PTP over Ethernet for clock steering.
Mostly agree with you, with some notes:

While it is true that the push for eCPRI (fronthaul transport over Ethernet defined in 2017 PTP as opposed to the synchronous CPRI interface) came from the new 5G requirements, the technology is not strictly 5G specific.

Ethernet fronthaul, with PTP (or SyncE) for synchronization as an associated technology and the different split of processing between Radio Equipment Controllers and Radio equipments, has been used for some time in also in 4G.
Other, smarter and "bottom up", network synchronisation techniques are also being developed (e.g radio mutual synchronization)

As an example, the O-RAN Alliance specifications only admit Ethernet based transports for maintenance (NETCONF over SSH and also TLS in the more recent drafts), user data and control (eCPRI or IP/UDP) , and synchronization (PTP/SyncE) planes and are explicitly valid for both 4G and 5G.

The simplification of infrastructure by using Ethernet transport is then not a strictly 5G thing (5G can also use CPRI for the FH), though admittedly 5G gave it a major push.
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Offline snarkysparky

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2022, 03:23:36 pm »
I wonder that also.

5g has three bands.

Low band.  Service speed and availability mostly the same as what we have now with 4g
mid band.  Limited range with much faster speed.  Available almost nowhere outside of major metro areas.
high band.  A few streets in Manhattan.  Line of sight.  1300 ft max from the tower.  Very fast if you want to stand on your balcony.

the point is to make the telecos a lot of money.


 
 

Offline Bud

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2022, 03:44:13 pm »
Beamforming and stearing to aim the signal directly at the receiver.
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Offline mansaxel

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2022, 05:20:41 pm »

As an example, the O-RAN Alliance specifications only admit Ethernet based transports for maintenance (NETCONF over SSH and also TLS in the more recent drafts), user data and control (eCPRI or IP/UDP) , and synchronization (PTP/SyncE) planes and are explicitly valid for both 4G and 5G.


This quote is very telco. I would guess you work at a major Swedish telecoms manufacturer.  :-DD

The only part of above that is not an IP protocol and therefore mostly ignorant of the L2 transport, is PTP. No wonder it's a IEEE protocol; the desire to mix layers is strong in the EE.   :-DD

To note; I've run both TLS and SSH (which as we all know are TCP application protocols) over IP over Packet Over Sonet, over IP over PPP on top of E1 and E3 serial, over IP on ATM vc's, over IP inside MPLS VPN, via SLIP over modem, and of course on top of every data carrier offered by mobile operators so far, and the list probably goes on. Not quite certain if I've run over Flame Delay, but I would not be surprised.

A related question: Would it be "O-RAN illegal" to have, say, a STM-64 backbone circuit, a router that can be a GM (clock from the SDH line, for instance), with  STM-64 and  10GE line cards, and use that to connect up a base station?  Because that would not be Ethernet for maintenance, not all the way.


Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2022, 05:24:55 pm »
Just saying - 5G is already "obsolete" while being barely deployed so far. 6G is coming. And as far as I've gotten, this time we'll be in the THz territory. :popcorn:
 

Offline Johnny10

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2022, 05:25:59 pm »
Speed, baby, Speed !
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2022, 05:50:56 pm »
Actually I think it is about serving more customers. More customers = more bills. And more bills = more money.

The faster thing is just a way of accomplishing that.

nope, it's the increasing data volume... higher resolution of pictures,videos. more data on web  sites.. that's the reason why higher speeds are needed.

I fail to see how this point is orthogonal to getting more customers and thus more money.
Anyway, this is really what it's mostly all about. Nobody would invest that much cash in this if it wasn't for the ROI.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2022, 07:06:54 pm »
nanobots in blood need 2 phone home and or faster connectivity  :-//
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2022, 09:14:24 pm »
Those bastards at AT&T here in the States slapped the label "5GE" on an older technology leading the naïve to believe they were getting real 5G. They weren't...
"That's not even wrong" -- Wolfgang Pauli
 
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Offline eti

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2022, 09:37:04 pm »
(- [for almost everyone else]) Travels less distance, requires new technology and infrastructure
(+[for the carriers]) Earns carriers £££+++ (which is basically ALL they care about, no, seriously, ALL they care about)

Oh, and cloud storage: The faster you can fill up your online cloud storage, the sooner you realise you need more, and the sooner your cloud storage company gets your paid upgrade  :palm:

We do not need 400 GigaFloppaTerrabps on our phones, laptops, or ANYTHING; the world has gone (more) INSANE.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2022, 09:40:06 pm by eti »
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2022, 09:58:36 pm »

We do not need 400 GigaFloppaTerrabps on our phones, laptops, or ANYTHING; the world has gone (more) INSANE.

Oh, but I do. Please don't we stop building it. While there are all sorts of kinds of traps around, as you indicate, there are good, useful ways to use this, and it will only ever be cheap enough that we won't think about the cost unless it's built the best way we can, and made something we all can benefit from. 

I am a more focused person with less worries now that I don't have to bother saving bits, and the kind of mobile plan I've got now (free domestic calls, free messaging, 20-i-think-something gigs per month data) is something my 2002 self hardly could have dreamt of.

Offline newbrain

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2022, 06:05:37 pm »
This quote is very telco. I would guess you work at a major Swedish telecoms manufacturer.  :-DD

The only part of above that is not an IP protocol and therefore mostly ignorant of the L2 transport, is PTP. No wonder it's a IEEE protocol; the desire to mix layers is strong in the EE.   :-DD

[...] related question: Would it be "O-RAN illegal" to have, say, a STM-64 backbone circuit, a router that can be a GM (clock from the SDH line, for instance), with  STM-64 and  10GE line cards, and use that to connect up a base station?  Because that would not be Ethernet for maintenance, not all the way.
I'll neither confirm or deny where I work  ;) - I cannot and do not want to speak for my employer, my opinions are my own etc. etc.

The user plane in the fronthaul is not necessarily IP, eCPRI is carried mainly directly over Ethernet.
Still L2(-ish), as the IQ samples nees to get to right processing elements and finally in the right RF time slot - but a very different one (and then there are proprietary Ethernet based transports too - of course not in the scope of O-RAN).

Since we are talking about fronhaul, the scenario you depict does not seem very practical, but as long as an O-RAN radio (O-RU) sees the correct interfaces (DHCP/SLAAC, NETCONF, eCPRI or UDP/IP, PTP/SyncE) I would think it's not against the specs!

Also, O-RAN was just an example and it's still an immature and evolving standard (and still full of oversights and ambiguities  |O).

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Flame Delay
:-DD :-DD
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2022, 06:48:24 pm »

We do not need 400 GigaFloppaTerrabps on our phones, laptops, or ANYTHING; the world has gone (more) INSANE.

Oh, but I do. Please don't we stop building it.

Oh, I'm sure you do. :-DD

(Well, to be fair, I'd exclude the ANYTHING part of eti's statement. There sure are cases for which getting data throughput as high as possible is a plus. But on a mobile phone? Who are we kidding? :-DD )
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2022, 09:03:17 pm »
I'll neither confirm or deny where I work  ;) - I cannot and do not want to speak for my employer, my opinions are my own etc. etc.
Fully understood. I probably can't hide where I work, but neither I speak for my employer. And so on and so forth.
The user plane in the fronthaul is not necessarily IP, eCPRI is carried mainly directly over Ethernet.
Still L2(-ish), as the IQ samples nees to get to right processing elements and finally in the right RF time slot - but a very different one (and then there are proprietary Ethernet based transports too - of course not in the scope of O-RAN).
Would this be mostly a vertical path, from RBSS to PA/receiver in antenna, or is it even more distributed than that?
Since we are talking about fronhaul, the scenario you depict does not seem very practical, but as long as an O-RAN radio (O-RU) sees the correct interfaces (DHCP/SLAAC, NETCONF, eCPRI or UDP/IP, PTP/SyncE) I would think it's not against the specs!
Yes, makes sense.

Also, O-RAN was just an example and it's still an immature and evolving standard (and still full of oversights and ambiguities  |O).
Obviously.
Quote
Flame Delay
:-DD :-DD

A classic, but still good.

Online tom66

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2022, 09:23:26 pm »
Higher bandwidth.  5G in many places could replace conventional DSL internet, which is typically very expensive at the 'last mile'.

Improving connectivity in congested areas.  Shopping malls, office blocks, stadiums, etc.  Currently 3G/4G may get a signal but there is insufficient capacity per customer to make this useful.

More bandwidth efficient.  So the expensive bandwidth the cell co's buy can be used for more customers/more data.  Which means more money, of course.
 
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Offline IanB

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2022, 09:32:24 pm »
I will mention, I found having 5G data speeds very helpful when using my phone as a hotspot in a location were wi-fi was slow and inadequate.
 

Offline nali

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2022, 09:50:11 pm »
(+[for the carriers]) Earns carriers £££+++ (which is basically ALL they care about, no, seriously, ALL they care about)

Which is basically the principle behind the existance of *any* company.

Quote
We do not need 400 GigaFloppaTerrabps on our phones, laptops, or ANYTHING; the world has gone (more) INSANE.

Wrong. There are useage cases which desperately need more mobile data bandwidth. For example, ever tried to use the WiFi service on a train? I'm talking about work emails or web-based UIs, not neccesarily watching tiktoks or cat videos.
 
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Online rstofer

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2022, 02:49:39 am »
I want to monitor the stock market in real time no matter where I am.  Faster is better!  There's money on both sides of this deal.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2022, 03:30:54 am »
Not quite certain if I've run over Flame Delay, but I would not be surprised.

Now sit yerself down here on the porch sonny - no not there, you'll get in the way of the rockin' chair - hand me my pipe and that mason jar there, and I'll tell you about the time that I ran th' infrastructure for a national UK ISP with nuthin' more than a 768k Frame Relay circuit to MAE-WEST for transit...
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 


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