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Offline Cerebus

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2022, 03:33:19 am »
Wrong. There are useage cases which desperately need more mobile data bandwidth. For example, ever tried to use the WiFi service on a train? I'm talking about work emails or web-based UIs, not neccesarily watching tiktoks or cat videos.

You could read a book instead. I'm told there are some quite good ones still available on folded cellulosic media that don't even need batteries, let alone connectivity.  :)
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Offline Nusa

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2022, 03:43:33 am »
Most of the people I know that have 5G phones are:
a) not using 5G because it isn't available where they live. Rumors of 5G coverage are exaggerated.
b) deliberately turn off 5G because 4G is still better at performing well consistently while traveling. It's no fun dealing with the jerkiness of 5G falling back to 4G as you move in and out of coverage areas, after a lovey timeout period where it doesn't work at all.
 

Offline nali

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2022, 10:43:11 am »
Wrong. There are useage cases which desperately need more mobile data bandwidth. For example, ever tried to use the WiFi service on a train? I'm talking about work emails or web-based UIs, not neccesarily watching tiktoks or cat videos.

You could read a book instead. I'm told there are some quite good ones still available on folded cellulosic media that don't even need batteries, let alone connectivity.  :)
..and some do. Others watch cat videos or shit-tocs and some have to work. Average that over maybe 1000 passengers on a busy commute and you've got quite a bit of data. Personally I use a pair of noise-cancelling headphones and listen to some music or the occasional podcast; coincidentally I think the last podcast I listened to on a train was Amp Hour with Dave talking to Shahriar from The Signal Path about.... 5G development (well worth a listen IMHO)
 

Online wraper

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2022, 10:59:41 am »
I bought a house and will move soon. 5G is the only viable option for internet somewhat comparable to the fiber optic I currently have. Besides wireless, outdated up to 10/2 mbit down/up DSL is the only option available. 4G would be fine if there was only a handful of users, but in real life it more or less sucks depending on time of the day.
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2022, 07:37:27 pm »
5G probably works better in fixed locations.

Another option or future option for just about everywhere is Starlink, assuming your government doesn't get in the way.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2022, 07:44:02 pm »
Those bastards at AT&T here in the States slapped the label "5GE" on an older technology leading the naïve to believe they were getting real 5G. They weren't...

They did that with 4G/LTE, too.

Also: LTE = "long term evolution towards 4G." They never bothered with implementing what they thought would be a "4G" network.
 
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Offline IanB

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2022, 07:51:20 pm »
As far as I know, AT&T's "5GE" is actually LTE, they just put a different label on it.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2022, 07:53:28 pm »
Could someone explain it to me? Pretend there's a six-paragraph prompt with supporting details, brainstorm cloud seeds etc. below. :box:


I think the simplest way to think about it is: increased capacity.

While the idea of ludicrous-speed transfers to a handset/smartphone make no real sense (you can already stream HD video content with 4G, and really, what are you going to do with any other data?), remember that there is a whole lot of devices out there that will use a cellular network to communicate. For instance: cars. We all know about how Teslas phone home, but within the next ten years all new cars sold will have some kind of cellular data connectivity. (And when the carriers sunset it like they're doing with 3G, well, hahaha, you're fukced).

Another idea is that 5G wireless provides an alternative to fiber or cable internet.

[I was going to say, "no need to get rights-of-way to run cable/fiber" but the cell providers here seem to be plunking down their poles with 5G antennas wherever the fuck they want, and it would not surprise me if many of those towers were repeatedly vandalized until the point is made. And it's not about stupid fears of 5G, it's about companies putting their poles on private property without permission. (Why they can't share existing electrical poles like the incumbent telco and the cable company and the power company already do is baffling.)]

Anyway, just getting a 5G hotspot that does a gigabit rate and attaching the usual firewall/router to it would seem to make customer installations very simple. Of course the connection would be metered and the customers will end up being fucked anyway.

So the true answer: money for the providers, with a secondary feature of money for every hardware manufacturer up and down the food chain, from the backhaul/towers down to the handsets.
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2022, 08:04:04 pm »

We do not need 400 GigaFloppaTerrabps on our phones, laptops, or ANYTHING; the world has gone (more) INSANE.

Oh, but I do. Please don't we stop building it. While there are all sorts of kinds of traps around, as you indicate, there are good, useful ways to use this, and it will only ever be cheap enough that we won't think about the cost unless it's built the best way we can, and made something we all can benefit from. 

I am a more focused person with less worries now that I don't have to bother saving bits, and the kind of mobile plan I've got now (free domestic calls, free messaging, 20-i-think-something gigs per month data) is something my 2002 self hardly could have dreamt of.

I know crazy isn’t it. The world will only need 7 super computers too.
EE's: We use silicon to make things  smaller!
 
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Online Algoma

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2022, 08:38:24 pm »
Mobile data here in Canada is such a sad situation. Sure we have all the technology, features and services, but not the competition.

Data plans remain well overpriced and 5G services simply allows them to exceed the limit within seconds of turning on your device each month.

Cost / GB in one chart.. 5G
https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/carriers/canadas-mobile-data-prices-vs-the-world-in-one-chart-pic/
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2022, 08:44:46 pm »
Could someone explain it to me? Pretend there's a six-paragraph prompt with supporting details, brainstorm cloud seeds etc. below. :box:


I think the simplest way to think about it is: increased capacity.

Truthfully I don't think I could explain why 5G is a good idea/necessary.

Sure, it comes with some definite, solid technical improvements and advantages. But, and it's a big but, is that it is also driven by political and personal forces that have nothing to do with whether it's a good idea/necessary/justified. I've seen politicians of all stripes from all sorts of countries blathering on about how their country must have 5G and must be the leading force in 5G while having no clue what 5G is, or indeed the intellect to differentiate between an elbow and an arse. On the professional side every waste-of-space manager in telecoms from the boards of Fortune 500 companies down to the lowest line manager wants '5G' on their CV/resumé and will make decisions to facilitate that regardless of the merits of 5G itself.

Way too much marketing wank, way too much 'new shiny', way too much 'if they're having it, we want it too' and way too little proper justification for tearing up existing infrastructure and functionally obsoleting whole ranges of consumer devices. I'm not saying that there aren't justifications, just that you don't hear a cogent case being made for them.
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Online wraper

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2022, 08:59:43 pm »
Mobile data here in Canada is such a sad situation. Sure we have all the technology, features and services, but not the competition.

Data plans remain well overpriced and 5G services simply allows them to exceed the limit within seconds of turning on your device each month.

Cost / GB in one chart.. 5G
https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/carriers/canadas-mobile-data-prices-vs-the-world-in-one-chart-pic/
You may notice that Latvia is on the least abusive end of the chart. Uncapped 4G is not that expensive at all. Cheapest 5G internet (dedicated, without a phone number) is EUR 19/month with 12 month contract, EUR 24/month with not time limited contract. That includes 5G router which by itself costs about EUR 500 . Another operator offers is EUR 13/month without a 5G router included, or EUR9/month if you have 2 phone numbers with them. + EUR 10/month if they give you the router. All have uncapped data.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 09:06:02 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2022, 10:36:09 pm »
Those bastards at AT&T here in the States slapped the label "5GE" on an older technology leading the naïve to believe they were getting real 5G. They weren't...

They did that with 4G/LTE, too.

Also: LTE = "long term evolution towards 4G." They never bothered with implementing what they thought would be a "4G" network.

I thought 4G LTE was a Verizon thing, as explained here: https://www.verizon.com/about/news/what-4g-lte-and-why-it-matters

It would not surprise me, however, if AT&T did something similar back at the dawn of the 4G era.
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Offline IanB

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2022, 11:49:02 pm »
I thought 4G LTE was a Verizon thing, as explained here: https://www.verizon.com/about/news/what-4g-lte-and-why-it-matters

It would not surprise me, however, if AT&T did something similar back at the dawn of the 4G era.

I had an older (pre 5G) AT&T phone that always displayed LTE, but my newer AT&T phone without a 5G plan shows 5GE.
 

Offline nali

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2022, 11:40:07 am »
There's another aspect to 5G which doesn't seem to make the headlines which is high accuracy location services with 1m or better claimed accuracy. I know that one area of interest is personal navigation for the blind where 10m GPS doesn't really cut it.

https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2020/12/5g-positioning--what-you-need-to-know
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2022, 02:15:50 pm »
Also, high data rates can end up being more power efficient because of the lower duty cycle; to transfer a given amount of data, the radio doesn’t need to work as long on a link with a higher data rate. So if your 5G is, say, 10x as fast as your 4G under the same conditions, your radio only needs to be in use 1/10 as long. That not only saves you power, but also increases the overall capacity of the network cell, since your time slots are much shorter.

(Yes, first generation radios for any new wireless generation are power hungrier than radios for prior generations, but that always gets resolved within a few years.)
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2022, 04:22:25 pm »
truth be known, its for the internet of things & the 4th industrial revolution.
this is when science fiction becomes science fact. as setout by the World Economic Forum
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Offline Rick Law

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2022, 02:22:00 am »
There's another aspect to 5G which doesn't seem to make the headlines which is high accuracy location services with 1m or better claimed accuracy. I know that one area of interest is personal navigation for the blind where 10m GPS doesn't really cut it.

https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2020/12/5g-positioning--what-you-need-to-know

I think it is because they deliberately under-play it after privacy advocates raised concerns.

Do you really want them to know you are having diarrhea today because they can mapped you visiting the bathroom every 10 minutes for the whole day?

I like the technology, but I am one of those very concerned about the lost of privacy and liberty enabled by these new technologies.
 
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Online ejeffrey

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2022, 06:10:02 am »
Sure, it comes with some definite, solid technical improvements and advantages. But, and it's a big but, is that it is also driven by political and personal forces that have nothing to do with whether it's a good idea/necessary/justified.

I mean, the technical improvements that allow serving more data to more people faster are pretty much justification enough?  Certainly if you look at mobile data usage trends over the past 10 years and projections on demand for the next 5 years, 5G looks pretty desirable.  Certainly some people will claim that "it's all cat pictures and tiktoks so we shouldn't be enabling increased usage", but who the fuck are they to decide what usage (and always by implication which people) are important?

Quote
On the professional side every waste-of-space manager in telecoms from the boards of Fortune 500 companies down to the lowest line manager wants '5G' on their CV/resumé and will make decisions to facilitate that regardless of the merits of 5G itself.

That is true of literally everything, not even just in technology.  People who aren't directly involved see something they hear will be important and they want to get in on it.  It's as annoying as it is predictable, but it isn't any sort of reason to be upset about 5G.  It's just a fact of being human.  But with or without the hangers-on, the case for 5G is pretty clear, and the people actually working on it understand that.
 
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Offline jonovid

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2022, 06:33:58 am »
story goes like this
 the US minister of transportation one Buttigieg was multitasking between breastfeeding baby's and doing that transportation stuff
so forgot about 5G and airport 5G microwave interference with aircraft altimeters. a US government cockup or blunder of the first order.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10413625/British-flyers-warned-caught-5G-chaos.html

https://www.eenewswireless.com/news/5g-interference-radio-altimeters-raises-aircraft-safety-concern
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2022, 03:08:24 pm »
story goes like this
 the US minister of transportation one Buttigieg was multitasking between breastfeeding baby's and doing that transportation stuff
so forgot about 5G and airport 5G microwave interference with aircraft altimeters. a US government cockup or blunder of the first order.

Except that Buttigieg has been US Secretary of Transportation for less than a year, and 5G has been in the works for much longer. Look to the previous administration and its expulsion of competent staff who were replaced by sycophants and stooges.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2022, 03:20:15 pm »
Sure, it comes with some definite, solid technical improvements and advantages. But, and it's a big but, is that it is also driven by political and personal forces that have nothing to do with whether it's a good idea/necessary/justified.

I mean, the technical improvements that allow serving more data to more people faster are pretty much justification enough?  Certainly if you look at mobile data usage trends over the past 10 years and projections on demand for the next 5 years, 5G looks pretty desirable.  Certainly some people will claim that "it's all cat pictures and tiktoks so we shouldn't be enabling increased usage", but who the fuck are they to decide what usage (and always by implication which people) are important?

Quote
On the professional side every waste-of-space manager in telecoms from the boards of Fortune 500 companies down to the lowest line manager wants '5G' on their CV/resumé and will make decisions to facilitate that regardless of the merits of 5G itself.

That is true of literally everything, not even just in technology.  People who aren't directly involved see something they hear will be important and they want to get in on it.  It's as annoying as it is predictable, but it isn't any sort of reason to be upset about 5G.  It's just a fact of being human.  But with or without the hangers-on, the case for 5G is pretty clear, and the people actually working on it understand that.

Go back and read the whole thing again, I think you have a comprehension problem. I never said we shouldn't have 5G, I never said I was "upset about 5G", all I said was "Truthfully I don't think I could explain why 5G is a good idea/necessary.". You're arguing against points I didn't make.
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Offline Sredni

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2022, 05:08:50 pm »
Could someone explain it to me? Pretend there's a six-paragraph prompt with supporting details, brainstorm cloud seeds etc. below. :box:

.  IoT and IIoT,
.  and Cloud services (SaaS, PaaS, IaaS,...XaaS)
.  require a lot
.  but really, a lot
.  of data
.  and speed.

In the 1990s you do not have any of those, so it's understandable 5G seems unnecessary
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Offline Rick Law

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2022, 11:30:33 pm »
Sure, it comes with some definite, solid technical improvements and advantages. But, and it's a big but, is that it is also driven by political and personal forces that have nothing to do with whether it's a good idea/necessary/justified.

I mean, the technical improvements that allow serving more data to more people faster are pretty much justification enough?  Certainly if you look at mobile data usage trends over the past 10 years and projections on demand for the next 5 years, 5G looks pretty desirable.  Certainly some people will claim that "it's all cat pictures and tiktoks so we shouldn't be enabling increased usage", but who the fuck are they to decide what usage (and always by implication which people) are important?
...
...

Thing is, I think for most people, they will not see the advertised significant speed improvement.  It has problem penetrating walls,  windows and even mere tree leaf.  So you are reduced to basically needing line-of-sight to the antenna.

According to talkingpointz.com which pop up as first on Google Search for "5g cannot penetrate windows":
https://talkingpointz.com/the-difference-between-5g-and-5g/
Quote
...
This shows the REDUCTION of in-building coverage at the 5GHz frequency. The diagram is non-linear so you are looking at something like an 80%~90% reduction in in-building coverage.

The author of the chart correctly points out that cellular 5G coverage is 100x worse on 95% of typical Cellular 5G frequencies than today’s 3G/4G frequencies.

The other thing to pick out is that 600 MHz in-building coverage is vastly superior to the more common 1~2 GHz frequencies most 3G and 4G networks are built on. T-Mobile has been buying and deploying 600 MHz left and right because they know it is the best way to have “coverage everywhere” (Both inside buildings and throughout vast swaths of open land.)

Where cellular 5G naming gets so confusing is that it is widely associated with frequencies above 2.1 GHz and it is being billed as faster with promos touting GB speeds. The public is being advertised into thinking that cellular 5G is all about speed. This is true in that cellular 5G unlocks higher frequencies which can yield high speeds at very close distances.

But cellular 5G is much more about managing spectrum efficiently. One of the most important cellular 5G features is the ability to have overlapping cells. A carrier would have a 600 MHz cell that provides far and everywhere coverage in a large area, up to a 30 mile radius. Then, they would deploy 850 MHz, 950 MHz, and 2100 MHz to offload the 600 MHz cell. Finally, higher frequencies such as 5 GHz would be deployed in stadiums and concert venues where there are a lot of people very close to the tower. Users would be routed to the highest frequency that provides acceptable service. Thus, 600 MHz can be used to “fill in the gaps” and 5 GHz can be used to “fill in the gasps” with higher speed and bandwidth.
...

So except for the limited few, they will be seeing 3G/4G/LTE probably for much of the life of "5G" deployment.  The improved efficiency is a good thing.  It helps hold cost down for the carriers and some saving would be passed along to the customers - or at least price increase will be tempered somewhat.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: What is the point of 5G? Explain like I'm from the 1990s.
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2022, 03:00:25 am »
It's not unlike any other technology that gets improved over time.

Faster speeds, better (more efficient) use of the radio spectrum, support for more devices on a given chunk of air, better encryption, more features etc...

It's no different to why things like WiFi or televisions have evolved over time.
 


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