General > General Technical Chat

What is the real story around heat pumps?

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pcprogrammer:

--- Quote from: nctnico on February 23, 2024, 07:44:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on February 23, 2024, 07:37:02 pm ---Don't actually expect to "win" any debate on this forum regarding climate change or renewable energy.  Goalposts shift, data is ignored, ears are plugged, bullshit is spread.  We are heading for climate catastrophe because most humans are fundamentally selfish and cannot conceive of problems outside their immediate interests.  Or because that people can't comprehend existential threats.  Whatever it is, it's not good.

--- End quote ---
Well, you have to define those 'existential' threats. IMHO the threats are way overblown as the earth and humanity have seen far worse events (like massive vulcanic eruptions, meteorites and ice ages). With today's level of technology there is a lot more the human race can do to remedy effects than ever before. I've been around long enough to notice the climate is changing myself (while carefully keeping in mind that memories typically compress the time frame). I've also been around long enough to know humanity can put serious and effective measures into place to remedy and reverse damage done to the environment. IOW: don't worry too much, it will be OK.

--- End quote ---

Don't be to sure about that.

You forgot to mention war as an event that hurts humanity way worse then some of those natural events, and a couple of days ago the news was a bit grim on future expectations. With a big bunch of narcissists controlling the world it might not be so far of. Europe needs to invest in the military apparatus, and count less on America to save our buts. It might be a political scheme to stimulate growth of the defense system and arms economy, but statements were made that we should allow pension funds to invest in weapons industry again.

With all the shifts to right wing politics in European countries it could be an indicator of this. Even last election in the Netherlands showed this shift.

Lets hope you are right and I'm wrong.

On another note, I can remember the times that streets were white and slippery of snow and ice for more than a couple of days in a row, so definitely not denying something in the climate is changing. Caused by industry and burning of fossil fuels, human dreadful interaction with nature or some other natural events, who knows.

zilp:

--- Quote from: nctnico on February 23, 2024, 07:44:07 pm ---Well, you have to define those 'existential' threats. IMHO the threats are way overblown as the earth and humanity have seen far worse events (like massive vulcanic eruptions, meteorites and ice ages).

--- End quote ---

Don't you think that it is a bit weird to put "the earth" and "humanity" right next to each other here?! I mean, obviously, the earth has seen far worse times, as far as conditions for life are concerned. Like, the surface of the earth was a molten sea of lava at some point, and obivously, the planet as such survived that just fine. But I presume you don't think that that has anything meaningful to say as to whether humans would be able to cope?!

I mean, yeah, I agree, there is absolutely zero risk from climate change to "the earth", as in, the lump of matter that orbits the sun and that we call by that name. All things considered, it will barely be affected. If you go down 10 km from the surface (so not even a percent of its diameter!), there probably would be no way to detect any changes from climate change whatsoever. But the surface could turn back into molten lava, and the same would still apply, so I hope you would agree that that is just completely irrelevant as far as the fate of humanity is concerned?!

Now, as for the claim that humanity has seen far worse events: Would you mind giving an example of a volcanic eruption, a meteorite, and an ice age, respectively, that humanity has experienced and that you think was far worse than climate change will become for humanity if we don't limit the temperature rise as recommended by the concensus of scientists?

To give you a heads up: Modern humans evolved at most 400,000 years ago. The last ice age was ~ 2.4 million years ago. If I were you, I wouldn't waste too much time trying to find an ice age that humanity has experienced.


--- Quote from: nctnico on February 23, 2024, 07:44:07 pm ---With today's level of technology there is a lot more the human race can do to remedy effects than ever before. I've been around long enough to notice the climate is changing myself (while carefully keeping in mind that memories typically compress the time frame). I've also been around long enough to know humanity can put serious and effective measures into place to remedy and reverse damage done to the environment. IOW: don't worry too much, it will be OK.

--- End quote ---

What I am wondering is: How would you recognize ahead of time a case where the technology that the human race has available would actually be insufficient to remedy/reverse the damage?

Are you saying that it is somehow logically impossible for humanity to cause damage to the environment that it can not remedy or reverse? If so, why would that be? And it not, then how did you determine that this instance of damage to the environment is in the category of cases that can be remedied/reversed?

Or are you saying that because we have in the past caused damage to the environment that we were able to remedy, that therefore any damage that we cause to the environment can be remedied?

If so, would you see any flaw with it if someone told you that they had been in various car crashes that they had all survived, and that they concluded that it therefore was impossible for them to die in a car crash?

coppice:

--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 08:18:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 07:53:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on February 23, 2024, 07:45:34 pm ---In the end, UK remains one of the few outliers where natural gas is 1/4th of the price of electricity. But most of the Earth's population uses heatpumps just fine, because they are hugely popular in most of Asia.

--- End quote ---
So, where in Asia are heat pumps popular for heating? There are many millions cooling homes in hot climates, but very few of those are reverse cycle and can heat a home.

--- End quote ---
Japan and China. I'll assume also Korea but would need some other verification of that.

--- End quote ---
Japan and China have vast numbers of heat pumps for cooling but very few are capable of heating. Japan is strange for an affluent country. Few people seem to properly heat their homes by any means at all, apart from Hokkiado, where its seriously cold. I'm not sure about Korea, but I can't remember seeing heat pumps used for heating there.

coppice:

--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 23, 2024, 08:13:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 07:53:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on February 23, 2024, 07:45:34 pm ---In the end, UK remains one of the few outliers where natural gas is 1/4th of the price of electricity. But most of the Earth's population uses heatpumps just fine, because they are hugely popular in most of Asia.

--- End quote ---
So, where in Asia are heat pumps popular for heating? There are many millions cooling homes in hot climates, but very few of those are reverse cycle and can heat a home.

--- End quote ---

Did you not see the news lately, -52 in China couple of day's ago.

Maybe a heat pump won't help much with these low temperatures, but as nctnico showed, Asia has some very cold parts.

--- End quote ---
There are many places in Asia where a heat pump for heating homes would be a great idea, but you just don't see them. The last time I was in China heat pumps for heating hot water were the latest trend, but they were sets specifically to heat a cylinder of water, and not to heat a home.

Someone:

--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 09:08:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 08:18:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 07:53:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on February 23, 2024, 07:45:34 pm ---In the end, UK remains one of the few outliers where natural gas is 1/4th of the price of electricity. But most of the Earth's population uses heatpumps just fine, because they are hugely popular in most of Asia.
--- End quote ---
So, where in Asia are heat pumps popular for heating? There are many millions cooling homes in hot climates, but very few of those are reverse cycle and can heat a home.
--- End quote ---
Japan and China. I'll assume also Korea but would need some other verification of that.
--- End quote ---
Japan and China have vast numbers of heat pumps for cooling but very few are capable of heating.
--- End quote ---
Doesnt match my experience, and sounds like bullshit when cooling only heat pumps are the rarities on the market. Air-air "reverse cycle" split systems are the majority of installs/models/uses as they are cheap and quickly return the investment compared to alternatives.
https://heatpumpingtechnologies.org/market-report-japan/
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/heat-pumps/heat-pumps-are-already-ubiquitous-in-asia-when-will-the-us-catch-up (who links the original sources)

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