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What is the real story around heat pumps?

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coppice:

--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 09:57:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 09:08:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 08:18:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 07:53:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on February 23, 2024, 07:45:34 pm ---In the end, UK remains one of the few outliers where natural gas is 1/4th of the price of electricity. But most of the Earth's population uses heatpumps just fine, because they are hugely popular in most of Asia.
--- End quote ---
So, where in Asia are heat pumps popular for heating? There are many millions cooling homes in hot climates, but very few of those are reverse cycle and can heat a home.
--- End quote ---
Japan and China. I'll assume also Korea but would need some other verification of that.
--- End quote ---
Japan and China have vast numbers of heat pumps for cooling but very few are capable of heating.
--- End quote ---
Doesnt match my experience, and sounds like bullshit when cooling only heat pumps are the rarities on the market. Air-air "reverse cycle" split systems are the majority of installs/models/uses as they are cheap and quickly return the investment compared to alternatives.
https://heatpumpingtechnologies.org/market-report-japan/
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/heat-pumps/heat-pumps-are-already-ubiquitous-in-asia-when-will-the-us-catch-up (who links the original sources)

--- End quote ---
If he'd looked a bit closer at all those heat pumps on the shops and apartments in Taipei and Ho Chi Minh he would have found the vast majority are air con only. Cooling only units are produced in massive volumes. Maybe you local suppliers sell mostly reverse cycle units, but many countries are different.

Someone:

--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 11:06:39 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 09:57:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 09:08:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 08:18:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 07:53:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on February 23, 2024, 07:45:34 pm ---In the end, UK remains one of the few outliers where natural gas is 1/4th of the price of electricity. But most of the Earth's population uses heatpumps just fine, because they are hugely popular in most of Asia.
--- End quote ---
So, where in Asia are heat pumps popular for heating? There are many millions cooling homes in hot climates, but very few of those are reverse cycle and can heat a home.
--- End quote ---
Japan and China. I'll assume also Korea but would need some other verification of that.
--- End quote ---
Japan and China have vast numbers of heat pumps for cooling but very few are capable of heating.
--- End quote ---
Doesnt match my experience, and sounds like bullshit when cooling only heat pumps are the rarities on the market. Air-air "reverse cycle" split systems are the majority of installs/models/uses as they are cheap and quickly return the investment compared to alternatives.
https://heatpumpingtechnologies.org/market-report-japan/
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/heat-pumps/heat-pumps-are-already-ubiquitous-in-asia-when-will-the-us-catch-up (who links the original sources)

--- End quote ---
If he'd looked a bit closer at all those heat pumps on the shops and apartments in Taipei and Ho Chi Minh he would have found the vast majority are air con only. Cooling only units are produced in massive volumes. Maybe you local suppliers sell mostly reverse cycle units, but many countries are different.

--- End quote ---
Citation required. I provided links and sources, you just talk.

coppice:

--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 11:49:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 11:06:39 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 09:57:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 09:08:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 08:18:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 07:53:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on February 23, 2024, 07:45:34 pm ---In the end, UK remains one of the few outliers where natural gas is 1/4th of the price of electricity. But most of the Earth's population uses heatpumps just fine, because they are hugely popular in most of Asia.
--- End quote ---
So, where in Asia are heat pumps popular for heating? There are many millions cooling homes in hot climates, but very few of those are reverse cycle and can heat a home.
--- End quote ---
Japan and China. I'll assume also Korea but would need some other verification of that.
--- End quote ---
Japan and China have vast numbers of heat pumps for cooling but very few are capable of heating.
--- End quote ---
Doesnt match my experience, and sounds like bullshit when cooling only heat pumps are the rarities on the market. Air-air "reverse cycle" split systems are the majority of installs/models/uses as they are cheap and quickly return the investment compared to alternatives.
https://heatpumpingtechnologies.org/market-report-japan/
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/heat-pumps/heat-pumps-are-already-ubiquitous-in-asia-when-will-the-us-catch-up (who links the original sources)

--- End quote ---
If he'd looked a bit closer at all those heat pumps on the shops and apartments in Taipei and Ho Chi Minh he would have found the vast majority are air con only. Cooling only units are produced in massive volumes. Maybe you local suppliers sell mostly reverse cycle units, but many countries are different.

--- End quote ---
Citation required. I provided links and sources, you just talk.

--- End quote ---
Try walking around Taipei or Ho Chi Minh, and see for yourself. The reserve cycle heat pumps aren't too hard to spot if you recognise the models. You'll find a few. In our tower in HK I think our flat was the only one with reverse cycle units. Taipei and Ho Chi Minh have a similar climate, and a similar mix of air cons and reverse cycle machines.

Its hard to tell if the two heat pumps on that restaurant are reverse cycle or not. They look like Daikin units. The consumer sized Daikins are easy to tell apart. The reverse cycle ones are much bulkier and styled differently. Those small commercial ones look similar, although the capacity of the reverse cycle models is lower for the same sized unit. Look at the apartment block behind. Aircons on every apartment, and I doubt a single one is reverse cycle.

Someone:

--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 11:57:20 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 23, 2024, 11:49:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on February 23, 2024, 11:06:39 pm ---If he'd looked a bit closer at all those heat pumps on the shops and apartments in Taipei and Ho Chi Minh he would have found the vast majority are air con only. Cooling only units are produced in massive volumes. Maybe you local suppliers sell mostly reverse cycle units, but many countries are different.
--- End quote ---
Citation required. I provided links and sources, you just talk.
--- End quote ---
Try walking around Taipei or Ho Chi Minh, and see for yourself. The reserve cycle heat pumps aren't too hard to spot if you recognise the models. You'll find a few. In our tower in HK I think our flat was the only one with reverse cycle units. Taipei and Ho Chi Minh have a similar climate, and a similar mix of air cons and reverse cycle machines.

It's hard to tell if the two heat pumps on that restaurant are reverse cycle or not. They look like Daikin units. The consumer sized Daikins are easy to tell apart. The reverse cycle ones are much bulkier and styled differently. Those small commercial ones look similar, although the capacity of the reverse cycle models is lower for the same sized unit. Look at the apartment block behind. Aircons on every apartment, and I doubt a single one is reverse cycle.
--- End quote ---
So more talk??
How about a reliable and neutral source:
https://www.iea.org/commentaries/global-heat-pump-sales-continue-double-digit-growth
and to quote:

--- Quote from: IEA ---In Japan and Korea, sales of air-to-air heat pumps were largely stable in 2022 as most units sold were to replace existing installations, which are typically a third less efficient than new models. More than 90% of homes in Japan are already equipped with heat pumps for space heating and cooling.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: IEA ---In Northern China, district heating remains the most common heating solution in cities, but many of these households also have heat pumps installed for space cooling and providing additional heating from time to time. In Southern China, where winters are milder, air-to-air reversible units are a widespread solution for space heating
--- End quote ---
You're bringing a biased and unsupported position to an easily verifiable argument. Credibility zero.

nctnico:

--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 23, 2024, 08:32:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on February 23, 2024, 07:44:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on February 23, 2024, 07:37:02 pm ---Don't actually expect to "win" any debate on this forum regarding climate change or renewable energy.  Goalposts shift, data is ignored, ears are plugged, bullshit is spread.  We are heading for climate catastrophe because most humans are fundamentally selfish and cannot conceive of problems outside their immediate interests.  Or because that people can't comprehend existential threats.  Whatever it is, it's not good.

--- End quote ---
Well, you have to define those 'existential' threats. IMHO the threats are way overblown as the earth and humanity have seen far worse events (like massive vulcanic eruptions, meteorites and ice ages). With today's level of technology there is a lot more the human race can do to remedy effects than ever before. I've been around long enough to notice the climate is changing myself (while carefully keeping in mind that memories typically compress the time frame). I've also been around long enough to know humanity can put serious and effective measures into place to remedy and reverse damage done to the environment. IOW: don't worry too much, it will be OK.

--- End quote ---

Don't be to sure about that.

You forgot to mention war as an event that hurts humanity way worse then some of those natural events, and a couple of days ago the news was a bit grim on future expectations. With a big bunch of narcissists controlling the world it might not be so far of. Europe needs to invest in the military apparatus, and count less on America to save our buts. It might be a political scheme to stimulate growth of the defense system and arms economy, but statements were made that we should allow pension funds to invest in weapons industry again.

With all the shifts to right wing politics in European countries it could be an indicator of this. Even last election in the Netherlands showed this shift.

--- End quote ---
That is a different subject. It is not like the cold-war period or the 1980's in particular where fun times in Europe. We still live and have food on the table. Things need to be shaken up a bit before they get better. Most of the culpritts are rather old and will die (or at least lose power) within a decade or so.

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