General > General Technical Chat
What is the real story around heat pumps?
pcprogrammer:
--- Quote from: Someone on February 24, 2024, 02:04:47 am ---
--- Quote from: johansen on February 24, 2024, 01:31:25 am ---Is this what this forum has become? 5% useful posts on actual heatpump data, 95% argument?
--- End quote ---
Something about heatpumps brings out the crazies, not just this forum. So the OP asking for honest answers (being overwhelmed by the noise) is fully understandable.
--- End quote ---
Luckily I'm able to filter the noise and as I wrote earlier I got the answers I was looking for. Now I participate in the noise too. :-DD
I read in a book of a Dutch guy that the IPCC does not see cities to be a contributor to the climate change. All I could find was that they see cities as high risk areas due to climate change. They just focus on CO2 as the big culprit in the whole climate change.
My opinion is that this is short sighted, and that there are many more factors in play.
Paving the planet with solar panels or harvesting all the lithium in the world, etc, might only make things worse. Humanity is it's own worst enemy. We poison our planet just to make a couple of bucks. I'm no exception. We try to do our best with reducing on consumption, but still want to have a bit of fun and luxury, so yes I buy things on Aliexpress and we live in a very big house.
A delicate balance was mentioned in some posts. One thing humanity is not capable of, keeping balance.
Edit: A Dutch article about the writer of the book I mentioned.
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 24, 2024, 08:00:33 am ---Paving the planet with solar panels or harvesting all the lithium in the world, etc, might only make things worse.
--- End quote ---
Don't take it too extreme, but there is something to this. Efficient solutions should be preferred and e.g. a simple air-to-air heatpump which costs 500€ to buy and uses a few dozen kg of common materials like plastics, iron, aluminum, copper, yet harvests 1kW (input power) * 2 (SCOP-1) * 24*365 * 0.5 (duty cycle) * 12 (years lifetime) = 100 000 kWh of free, renewable energy. A 4-5kWp PV system would then harvest say 5000 kWh/year * 20 year lifetime = roughly the same 100 000 kWh of free, renewable energy.
But the environmental cost of manufacturing the heatpump is probably smaller, it is significantly cheaper to buy, and it harvests energy during winter nights, too. This doesn't mean PV is bad, just something to think about for the priority list.
Lithium ion battery storage is then again at least an order of magnitude worse again. Especially if you have any low-hanging fruit like controlling the usage of electric hot water production which can easily store 20kWh worth of energy by just adding 500€ worth of control to an existing system. Compare the ecological footprint and install cost to li-ion battery system of the same size!
Then again, maybe such low-hanging fruit is not available. I'm not saying never to install battery systems. Just something to think about for priorities.
pcprogrammer:
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on February 24, 2024, 08:29:08 am ---Then again, maybe such low-hanging fruit is not available. I'm not saying never to install battery systems. Just something to think about for priorities.
--- End quote ---
Don't get me wrong, I neither am saying not to take action, but indeed think about the action you are taking and don't willy-nilly buy into what the media or politics is trying to shove down your throat.
The whole idea of these systems to pay for themselves is kind of bullshit. Sure it can reduce on your energy bill, but it will still cost money. Depending on the type of system and the cost to install it can take a long time before any savings start to come. You will have to take into account the loss of interest or dividends the sum you are spending on such a system might have given you too. Won't be much for a system of a couple of grand, but when it becomes 10 or more K's it adds up.
So for us we just see it as cost for living in comfort and not as a way to save money. Living costs money is a simple fact of life. That we might help in "saving the planet" is a small bonus. :)
As is, it is more likely helping the economy. >:D
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 24, 2024, 09:03:32 am ---The whole idea of these systems to pay for themselves is kind of bullshit. Sure it can reduce on your energy bill, but it will still cost money. Depending on the type of system and the cost to install it can take a long time before any savings start to come.
--- End quote ---
Remember that expensive systems such as quoted for you are a kind of specialty of wealthy societies and wealthy households. Energy solutions are being sold exceeding their true value, because there is market for that and people still buy. My air-to-water heat pump installation was less than 4000EUR all parts included, although I did the install work myself but it would have been less than 1000EUR for work if I just paid for hourly rates for electrician and plumber; and the end result is way better than how a typical 15000EUR complete one size fits all solution would have been.
Typical cost for air-to-water retrofit was around 8000-9000 EUR here but nearly doubled to 14-15000 EUR almost overnight after a 4000EUR subsidy come into place. The market does not reflect actual costs, and any subsidies further twist the market. Enough people are willing to pay outrageous prices when they feel good about it.
In Japan air-to-air heatpump costs something like 500EUR installed so one can easily afford one per each room. They do pay back for themselves, that's literally why they were developed in 1980's in the first place, to save cost of fossil fuels.
nctnico:
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on February 24, 2024, 09:31:32 am ---
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on February 24, 2024, 09:03:32 am ---The whole idea of these systems to pay for themselves is kind of bullshit. Sure it can reduce on your energy bill, but it will still cost money. Depending on the type of system and the cost to install it can take a long time before any savings start to come.
--- End quote ---
Remember that expensive systems such as quoted for you are a kind of specialty of wealthy societies and wealthy households. Energy solutions are being sold exceeding their true value, because there is market for that and people still buy. My air-to-water heat pump installation was less than 4000EUR all parts included, although I did the install work myself but it would have been less than 1000EUR for work if I just paid for hourly rates for electrician and plumber; and the end result is way better than how a typical 15000EUR complete one size fits all solution would have been.
Typical cost for air-to-water retrofit was around 8000-9000 EUR here but nearly doubled to 14-15000 EUR almost overnight after a 4000EUR subsidy come into place. The market does not reflect actual costs, and any subsidies further twist the market. Enough people are willing to pay outrageous prices when they feel good about it.
--- End quote ---
That is absolutely true. About a year ago I did a DIY solar panel install costing me around 3700 euro in parts. To have it installed I got quotes for nearly double that price. But that was during a period of extreme hype so installers could ask any price and people would pay for it. My solar panel system will still pay for itself in 3 years though.
Now I'm looking at putting a 'green roof' on the shed (just for kicks and because I like growing plants). Due to subsidies this is insanely expensive to buy off the shelve. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to execute a DIY solution I came up with.
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