Whats Cheap is Cheap? Salary vs Price

[Mechatrommer]

mariano! we are closer! if i live and work in US, maybe i can have one house of electronics laboratory already! another house for photographic equipments. and a lot of wives
but i'm not sure about food, daily expenses or lifestyle there. but USD 7K is near MYR 25K our currency, a salary for a prime minister! (excluding off record incomes)

[Simon]

well lets not get started on the buying power in the UK, it will depend on who you ask, my 13 year old 1.8L mondeo is about as much a luxury as i can afford (driven so carefully i get the mileage of a 1.4L engine), as is having a megre mortgage on £290 a month (not including insurance some of which I have to take out to get the mortage). Decorating my house and fixing my car is nearly bankrupting me and i'm just buying cheap paint and doing it myself. I can order stuff fairly freely from farnell or ebay but i do have to watch it and try not to spend on average more than £20 a month. My Rigol was a major investment that put me into the red for 2 months but was well worth it and i foresaw this particularly now thatr it is worth over twice what I scrounged it for and I had to sell my old CRT scoe to help fund it. My dad went mad (with some reason) when he saw me buy a second £30 multimeter in 6 months.

Had I had unlimited funds I may well be much further ahead than i am now, but i have most of what i need now so given time after the decorating is finished and the space my new house affords me i may get somewhere, I may be able to make some money from my hobby and help pay for my mortgage that no doubt will get more exspensive when the economy picks up and interest rates go up, in just under 2 years I will be paying more than i am now.

[NiHaoMike]

I'm forced to drive half way across Sydney and pay $2600/year in tolls :-(
I'd happily take twice as long to get to work if I could walk or cycle.

Build a hybrid bicycle. If traffic is heavy, it can actually be faster than driving. And topics like battery management and field oriented control would make great videos.

[A-sic Enginerd]

People just need to get out of the stupid McMansion/McCastle Truman Show caffe-frigg'n-latte dream and be realistic.
Dave.

That's sig line worthy right here. 
It's my wife's and mine sentiment exactly for people living large out here in certain regions of Northern California.

[ChrisGammell]

@Simon, though it's little consolation (it never was for me at the time), having to work with the lower end gear really makes you appreciate the higher end gear. It did for music equipment for me.

Unfortunately, I've been spoiled by test equipment at my work, so while I could staff my home lab with some meager gear on my current budget (maybe a couple handhelds and a rigol), the real problem is lusting after what I get to use during the day.

[Simon]

well if you work in the industry you will always be using better equipment than you have at home, unless you work where i work which is not involved in electronics though

[ngkee22]

That sounds like my situation.  I develop wiring harnesses, so at most I use a multimeter.  So, just about anything I get at home is an improvement and I get back into electronics.

[Simon]

well i work for a company that makes engine cooling (radiators) and vehicle air conditioning, so osciloscopes ansd the like are not exactly the order of the day, but then they don't want to spend the money on a cheap "inspecta arm" (cheaper version of a farrow arm), but still they will get it just to show the customeras, never mind that i can make good use of it.

[Polossatik]

I'm not sure if the salary figures given are before (gross amount?)  or after (netto amount) taxes.

In belgium we pay quite hefty taxes so if you earn like 2000 €/month you get around 1350 after taxes, if you earn 3000 €/month you get around 1750 after taxes...

A decent starter package here would be around 2000€/month before taxes, let's say between 1200 and 1400 € after taxes with some minor benefits added. If you really have a Engineer's degree (not some degree in engineering) it will be higher, but not much, the pay will only go up faster . In general you work 6 months for a relative low wage and then you get a nice $$ bump (as starter).

If, after a few job changes and like 10 years of experiance, you have a company car (in Belgium you relatively easely a company car in the technical jobs as it's cheaper for the company to give you a 500 euro / month car than a 500 euro payrise - we're talking in general about cars like renault senic, VW golf/passat to BMW 3/5 series, Audi and other *bling* brands), some other benefits and cash in around 2000 - 2300 € a month after taxes (45 to 55.000 € / year before taxes - a year pay in Be is 13.4*month - we get payed a extra 1.4 month/year) you're doing quite okay - you're in the mid market nice earners band.

But I know people who make 4000 / month after taxes

A fluke Fluke 87-V  costs around 400 / 450 €
the rigol -> dealextreme
Canon EOS 5D Mark II body is 1850 €
coca cola is sold here in 330 ml cans, will be around 0.65 - 0.70 € in supermarkets (24 pack or so), retail 1.2 to 1.5 euro up to 2 euro depending on location for a chilled can

in brussels you would pay
a not to chabby 2 bedroom 120-150m² appartment around 200.000 to 300.000 €
a "normal" house (would be like 2/3 bedroom, 180-250m² with maybe a (small) garden or so) 350.000 to 550.000 €
the "better" houses from around 600.000 up to 6 or 7.000.000 € for some area's (and that's then not yet the "top" of the market)

[PetrosA]

All I can say is there's a big difference in salary between *onic and *ician Be glad most of you are in the former group, regardless of where you live...

[Mechatrommer]

@polo = your currency is about 4x higher than ours. so even after the taxes for beginner is just 1400 € , you have more power (3-4x maybe) in buying those stated equipments.. compared to us.

[Andlier]

I'm from Norway, let's see how we are doing in local currency NOK:

1) "Normal" Engineer's Salary = NOK 25000-35000 (what beginning to intermediate experienced engineers get paid each month after taxes. Before taxes: 35000-50000)
2) Rigol DS1052E = NOK 5000 (you need to import it yourself and pay 25% tax)
3) Fluke 87-V DMM = NOK 3700
4) Canon EOS 5D Mark II Body = NOK 17000
5) PIC16F690 mcu (1 unit) = NOK 20-30
6) atTiny13a mcu (1 unit) = NOK 20-30
7) a tin of 330ml coca cola = NOK 10

[Mechatrommer]

that NOK 25000-35000 salary is per year or per month?

[xoom]

I think per month my brother working in Norway.. offloading ships with fishes also getting good money:)

[scrat]

I live in Northern Italy (I specified "Northern" because it makes much difference in prices and salaries between North and South).
Strange things happen to an electronic engineer (master's degree, because with a 3-years degree you're considered only a technician, not a real engineer) can start with a salary significantly lower than a building worker (and half than a plumber that works in his own), and perhaps won't grow fast, especially after the world crisis started. Better situations can be near the commercial capital (Milan), where density of electronics companies is muh higher (and their dimension too).
If you'd like to make more money in electrical/electronics you're going to work as a technician (which usually gets paid better) and go around the world with companies involved in automation (to design electrical plants or programming always the same Siemens PLCs ). No research, little development, little innovation. It seems to me that a good potential is thrown away every day, since academic instruction is not so bad, especially from a theoretical point of view (Italy still exports good researchers).
But this is a trend, the center of the world is moving towards East, that's the story, and our system is not able to compete 

1) MS-degree first work Engineer's Salary = 1000-1100 euro
2) Rigol DS1052E = Dealextreme (295 euro) or Italian reseller (473 euro)
3) Fluke 87-V DMM = 458 euro
4) Canon EOS 5D Mark II Body = 1900 euro
5) PIC16F690 mcu (1 unit) = 1.72 euro
6) atTiny13a mcu (1 unit) = 1.80 euro
7) a tin of 330ml coca cola = NOK 10

[Mechatrommer]

scrat, yours still better than us (malaysian), dont worry, that ee thing is the same to us, except... for a 3 years worth of U study, will entitled you as a diploma holder, 5-6 years, bachelor degree, add 2 years = master, add 2 years again = pHD. i can see some of our contractors, bussinessmen, and even "unlicenced" contractors could afford much more than fellow bachelor engineers, and more sadly is that, this "uneducated" people are the one thats most probably going to be your boss

[rossmoffett]

I live in a suburb of Omaha (City), Nebraska (State), in the US. I double checked, the salary.com website lists median income for 'Electrical Engineer I' (whatever that means) as $58,856US/year, so to be exact it'd be MYR 187426.9320. It's probably more likely that a student fresh out from a four year college degree would make about half that to start, about $30,000US/year, which would be MYR 95535. That's what I made as a contractor doing audio tape digitization and archive about six years ago with no prior experience, though when you're self employed the taxes are a bit higher (~26% in my case). When I worked for a rail test company they started me at $11.50US/hr (MYR 36.6217) and I was working 70+ hour weeks, so I made a bit more.

(speaking in $USD)
$30k/year??  I doubt the accuracy of that, I think $60k for a fresh-out-of-college graduate is the real national median, and maybe $50k for your area because Nebraska and Oklahoma have similar demographics.  My little brother started at over $45k (I've never really asked, I'm just sure it's more than that) doing high-voltage line work with an Associates degree, I've known many associates degreed students in Electronics Tech getting that much too right out of college.

I just graduated from a technical University with a Bachelors degree in Instrumentation Engineering Tech.  I had 8 classmates graduating with me, the median yearly income is about $55k between all of us, going into Technician and Maintenance positions.  About half of us have or will have new company vehicles.  Most of us are in Oil/Gas field services in Texas and Oklahoma USA, with a few going into manufacturing plants.  Our job responsibilities are largely working with modular (not board level) electronics, programming and supervisory control of machines/instruments by wire and radio.. So not "Electronics Engineering" but definitely in the realm of what an EE can do.  I'll be working underneath a Sr. EE in my position and making above the median starting EE salary you listed (which is consistent with most surveys).  I think I've got a good deal, living in Oklahoma City where the cost of living is pretty advantageous with the given wages.  A great home in OKC will cost $150k, a fantastic home with large land plots (McMansion) for $250k+.  Since a vehicle is a dead requirement here, a brand-new eco car is $10-15k and a great muscle/fast car starts at $22k.  Used cars are more reasonable, with reliable low-mileage used cars starting from $6k.  I paid $400 for my Rigol scope (and modding it almost got me a job at Northrop-Grumman, they got a kick out of that).  I think soon I'll be buying all kinds of test equipment.

About half of the people with Associates of Technology in Electronics degrees will do just as well, but the other half will never make that much money.  We have a lot of advantage in the way our University caters its program to the specific needs of industry partners, they hire everyone with great benefit to us.

Our Automation club always made a point to try and get salary out of industry people.  The purpose of the club was to get us jobs and tour different industry sectors, so we spoke to a wide variety of professionals in a variety of different industrial facilities.  From doing that, I know that with my education (and similar) people easily rise into and above the average national income for an EE except they have Technician (or technician-like) titles!  Board level technicians fare badly though, I laughed at what some of the EE tech jobs in Tulsa paid in PCB manufacture and others.  Something like $12/$14 an hour!  We all got paid over $22/hr on out internships!  I think the classmate I know making the least is making $23/hr now.

If there are any IEEE members here, they have salary surveys with member access only that would be really interesting to see!

[EEVblog]

If there are any IEEE members here, they have salary surveys with member access only that would be really interesting to see!

I'm an IEEE member, but I can't seem to find the info on the web site. Anyone know where it is?

Dave.

[scrat]

scrat, yours still better than us (malaysian), dont worry, that ee thing is the same to us, except... for a 3 years worth of U study, will entitled you as a diploma holder, 5-6 years, bachelor degree, add 2 years = master, add 2 years again = pHD. i can see some of our contractors, bussinessmen, and even "unlicenced" contractors could afford much more than fellow bachelor engineers, and more sadly is that, this "uneducated" people are the one thats most probably going to be your boss

"A trouble shared, is a trouble halved". Or literaly from the Italian (much more positive) form "Trouble shared, half a joy"
Let's laugh on it. I know that the situation here is not so bad, but could be much better.  The sensation is that things are going rapidly down...
Globalization has had heavy drawbacks, since a Chinese EE of course is much better than an European one when looking at costs, and quality is not worse (Rigol is a demonstration of Chinese high quality level).
Since economy is a dynamical system, things are going to equilibrate (thanks to Mr Negative Feedback  ) at steady-state, but during this transient we will suffer a little, and go on looking at our ungraduated friends who can go around in shiny new cars...
Will economy kill our passion, in the meanwhile?
The absurd is that while the world is going to be really pervaded by electronics, there is no demand for EEs here, and you can't find a job to follow your passion, for which you studied, even if you're content with a very low (as buying power) salary. I even thought about a way for collecting projects on the internet, and working on them for free, just to gain experience (it doesn't seem a very good idea, ideed)...

[rossmoffett]

I'm an IEEE member, but I can't seem to find the info on the web site. Anyone know where it is?

Dave.

http://www.ieeeusa.org/careers/salary/default.asp

I get directed here, not sure what the Aussie site is, Dave.

[EEVblog]

I'm an IEEE member, but I can't seem to find the info on the web site. Anyone know where it is?

Dave.

http://www.ieeeusa.org/careers/salary/default.asp

I get directed here, not sure what the Aussie site is, Dave.

FARK, that is shit a shit survey. But I filled it in anyway, and to get any estimates you have to enter very specific info:

I tried this one:
You specified the following employment conditions:
   
     
Condition
   
Selected Values
   
Base Adjustment
   
Primary Adjustment
Employer Size:    Unknown    0.0%    0.0%
Specialty Group:    Circuits and Devices    0.0%    0.0%
Professional Specialty:    Circuits and Systems    -1.8%    -3.6%
Primary Job Function:    Design and Development Engineering    -4.7%    -7.0%
Employer Type:    Private Industry: Other than Defense or Utilities    2.4%    1.8%
Line of Business:    Electrical/Electronic Manufacturing    0.4%    4.6%
Highest Degree Held:    No Degree    -10.4%    -9.6%
Region:    Pacific    0.0%    0.0%
Metro Area:    San Jose    21.7%    21.6%
Professional Experience:    1    3.3%    3.5%
Current Job Experience:    1    0.3%    0.3%
Number of Technical Employees:    0    0.0%    0.0%
Number of Non-Technical Employees:    0    0.0%    0.0%
Responsibility Level:    Not Specified    0.0%    0.0%

 
   
     Estimated annual income for this situation, from base salary and primary sources (base salary plus any bonuses, commissions, or net self employment income):    
     
   Base    Primary Sources
10th Percentile:    $51,900.00    $52,100.00
20th Percentile:    $58,600.00    $59,300.00
30th Percentile:    $63,400.00    $64,600.00
40th Percentile:    $67,600.00    $69,100.00
Median:    $71,300.00    $73,200.00
60th Percentile:    $75,100.00    $77,400.00
70th Percentile:    $79,300.00    $82,100.00
80th Percentile:    $84,500.00    $87,800.00
90th Percentile:    $91,600.00    $96,000.00

[rossmoffett]

California engineers get paid more because the cost of living is ridiculous.  For reference I heard Los Angeles Police make around $60k/year.  In my state it's half that or less.