Whats Cheap is Cheap? Salary vs Price

[Mechatrommer]

i've been wondering... people are talking about cheap item there, cheap item here, expensive there, expensive here etc, here some of scenarios:

1) new digital slr line is coming out!... under $1K price tag!
2) the rigol is cheap value for money! just $400!
3) that or this dev board is expensive $500
4) etc etc, its cheap! just $100! the DMM! or whatever!

what i'm talking about is the price compared to your monthly/or daily income or... our local buying power. you see, here in our country, our standard or normal income for a postgraduate (Bsc) job is around MYR 1800-2500 (malaysian ringgit/dollar) for the beginning, when you got more experience, it can go up to something like MYR 3K++ to 10K++ (again our currency) depending on what type of company you are in. so for a beginner's salary at MYR 2000, buying a low end DSLR ($1K = MYR 3500) is a 1 month and a half worth of salary!

this thing come back into my mind when i'm ordering some PCB soldering equipments days ago (flux, remover, low melt solder etc) from Zephyrtronics http://www.zeph.com. the total quote is USD190++. maybe for you, it is not much. well, if its in our currency, the 190 is not really much. but it is actually a MYR 665 in our currency (including shipping), quite expensive for me... for just several bottles of flux with accessories! attached picture is the items i'm ordering.

so here i'm asking friends from around the globe to show whats the buying power in your country. i'm going to start with the "normal" monthly salary and the price of several items in our country... in our currency. "normal" i mean is the usually or mostly given salary for a normal Bsc job based on your preferences. please indicate the price for those items in your own currency, dont convert it to other country's currency, esp USD as usually people quoting at. here is the list for our country.

1) "Normal" Engineer's Salary = MYR 1800-4000 (beginning to intermediate experienced engineers)
2) Rigol DS1052E = MYR 1300
3) Fluke 87-V DMM = MYR 1900
4) Canon EOS 5D Mark II Body = MYR 7200
5) PIC16F690 mcu (1 unit) = MYR 12
6) atTiny13a mcu (1 unit) = MYR 1-2
7) a tin of 325ml coca cola = MYR 1.50

so i hope you frens can give me/us some clue about your country's prices and buying power, thanks.

Sincerely,
Shafri, Malaysia.

[joelby]

I won't comment on the buying power, but that order seems expensive because of the massive shipping cost! If you don't need things very urgently and if the company doesn't give you any cheaper options than international next day gorillagram, you can save a lot of money by using a US mail forwarding company that routes mail via Sweden, or some other shenanigans.

[Mechatrommer]

...seems expensive because of the massive shipping cost!

thats the truth for our country, but i wont considering any cheaper courier service if the safety is not guaranteed or proven. and can ship within weeks, not months. and... zephyr not providing the option for the gorillagram.
but if quoted without the shipping, its $111.5 = MYR 390. still quite a price for me, for just several bottles...
and yet... thats $79.79 USPS service, is the cheapest that i can get in zephyr.

[EEVblog]

You get Big Mac's cheap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index
But we here in Australia work a bit less to pay for it.

The average electronics engineering job in Australia might pay say AU$80K/year (230,000 MYR), with a beginner starting out on say AU$50K (143K MYR)

Gear in Australia is pretty expensive compared to the US or China though.

Dave.

[Mechatrommer]

yup. indicating the salary alone is enuf to show the buying power... i think the item price will not differ too much, unless goverment gives some crazy taxes to it. so australian EE's have around 5x or more buying power than us.
and.... for a big mac... its a MYR 10 in our country, more or less..

[ThunderSqueak]

in Alaska, I see technicians make about 60-80k USD a year depending on experience, engineers a bit more then that.  They have to bribe people to move here due to the cold and isolation.  If you can land a job it is a good gig and most companies here take very good care of their employees.  Which is funny because you still need to argue with upper management to approve things like multimeters  

Damn tight asses....

a big mac is like 7 dollars... assuming you actually want to eat one of those ... *shudder*

[joelby]

thats the truth for our country, but i wont considering any cheaper courier service if the safety is not guaranteed or proven. and can ship within weeks, not months. and... zephyr not providing the option for the gorillagram.
but if quoted without the shipping, its $111.5 = MYR 390. still quite a price for me, for just several bottles...
and yet... thats $79.79 USPS service, is the cheapest that i can get in zephyr.

Most of these forwarding services are widely reviewed, and some will take photos of the merchandise when it arrives so that you can make sure it's intact and instruct them to return it. If it was something fragile and valuable I'd just stick to the courier, but for a few bottles of goo I don't think it's worth paying 25 Big Macs for premium postage

[McPete]

The average electronics engineering job in Australia might pay say AU$80K/year (230,000 MYR), with a beginner starting out on say AU$50K (143K MYR)

Given that almost all those engineering jobs are in capitol cities, I'm amazed anyone in the electronics game can afford housing anywhere near their workplace... Sydney and Melbourne especially! Looking at that wage, I'd probably be going backwards financially if I went to an engineering job from my current role. That's a bit of a worry.

With you on equipment though, for just about anything. A lot of local hobby and sporting stores are struggling against internet retailers- They just get blown out of the water on price by Europe, America and China.

[Mechatrommer]

if i got an income of 60-80K per annum, then i'm among the richest servant in my town, i can afford 2 or 3 houses here! and eat lots of big mac every month.

[EEVblog]

The average electronics engineering job in Australia might pay say AU$80K/year (230,000 MYR), with a beginner starting out on say AU$50K (143K MYR)

Given that almost all those engineering jobs are in capitol cities, I'm amazed anyone in the electronics game can afford housing anywhere near their workplace... Sydney and Melbourne especially!

ARGHH!! RANT TIME!

Every goes on and on about how unaffordable housing in Sydney, and it's complete and utter bullshit.
The fact is you can get a house on your own 500sqm+ land in western Sydney with great public transport for under $250,000, and there are plenty of them.
People just need to get out of the stupid McMansion/McCastle Truman Show caffe-frigg'n-latte dream and be realistic.

/END RANT

Dave.

[McPete]

ARGHH!! RANT TIME!
Every goes on and on about how unaffordable housing in Sydney, and it's complete and utter bullshit.
The fact is you can get a house on your own 500sqm+ land in western Sydney with great public transport for under $250,000, and there are plenty of them.
People just need to get out of the stupid McMansion/McCastle Truman Show caffe-frigg'n-latte dream and be realistic!
/END RANT

Whoa mate, steady-up, I wasn't inferring the pathetic social-climber-rendered-brick-design-mortgaged-to-the-brink-of-disaster at all!
I probably coloured my statement by my preferred means of transport(the bicycle), and my being accustomed to being quite close to work (15km).

I was thinking alike distances and modes of transport- Sydney has far a far better setup with public transport, in terms of getting the workforce to work. I'm not aware of anyone in my workplace using public transport to get to work with any regularity.

My first post that really draws the attention of our host was to bring on a rant... Yeah, I'm on a good run this week -_-

[Mechatrommer]

AUD250,000 per 500sq meter? per AUD80K wage per annum? well thats cheap! my new home is 300sqm piece of land and is MYR 320,000. thats among the luxuriuos housing/land in my town. standard housing here is around 140 sqm (1500sqft) for MYR 240,000. for near capital housing, the price can be 0.5 to 1 million price (high end one, semi-D and fully Detached).

[DJPhil]

Because I feel compelled to follow instructions, and I was curious myself.

1) "Normal" Engineer's Salary = MYR 187427 (from salary.com)
2) Rigol DS1052E = MYR 1305.6450 (tequipment.net - free shipping)
3) Fluke 87-V DMM = MYR 1209.9508 (tequipment.net - free shipping)
4) Canon EOS 5D Mark II Body = MYR 7181.0475 (google products search - shipping better be free!)
5) and 6) are about MYR 3.5 to 4.5, add MYR 23.8837 or so minimum shipping (I didn't check everywhere, just went to mouser)
7) a tin of 325ml coca cola = MYR 1.5922 ($0.5US) to MYR 3.1845 ($1US) from a vending machine, up to MYR 15.9225 ($5US) when a venue can get away with it, cheaper by far in a 12 or 24 can pack. Also, they're 355ml (12 fluid ounces) here because we're silly and refuse to embrace the metric system.

Sounds pretty good, but I'm not pulling down that kind of money! I've got exactly $24US/wk (MYR 76.4280) of disposable income, so rest assured that I agonize over the value of my purchases.

Every goes on and on about how unaffordable housing in Sydney, and it's complete and utter bullshit.
The fact is you can get a house on your own 500sqm+ land in western Sydney with great public transport for under $250,000, and there are plenty of them.
People just need to get out of the stupid McMansion/McCastle Truman Show caffe-frigg'n-latte dream and be realistic.

Wow. Where I live is considered a near ideal mix of low cost of living and high quality of neighborhood for the US, and the older houses here (built in the 60s) on tiny lots packed into suburbia were going for about that much before the big real estate crisis. The brand new houses are almost twice that and they're on lots that aren't any bigger, still packed into suburbia. The absolute maximum commute in the metro area here is probably 45min or so, it's not very big. The average one bedroom apartment here is roughly $500US/mo, with a studio in the rougher parts of town going for half that. Of course, there's plenty of McMansions for inflated prices out on (ironically) our west side of town.

Sounds similar to Sydney in some ways.

[Mechatrommer]

man! i didnt ask you to convert to MYR, now i have to search where you are from. and that MYR 187427 is annually right? so MYR 15K per month. a CEO's income here.

[DJPhil]

man! i didnt ask you to convert to MYR, now i have to search where you are from. and that MYR 187427 is annually right? so MYR 15K per month. a CEO's income here.

I was just being thorough, no worries.

I live in a suburb of Omaha (City), Nebraska (State), in the US. I double checked, the salary.com website lists median income for 'Electrical Engineer I' (whatever that means) as $58,856US/year, so to be exact it'd be MYR 187426.9320. It's probably more likely that a student fresh out from a four year college degree would make about half that to start, about $30,000US/year, which would be MYR 95535. That's what I made as a contractor doing audio tape digitization and archive about six years ago with no prior experience, though when you're self employed the taxes are a bit higher (~26% in my case). When I worked for a rail test company they started me at $11.50US/hr (MYR 36.6217) and I was working 70+ hour weeks, so I made a bit more.

Hope that helps.

[flolic]

1) Average salary = HRK 5400, engineers have more, if they are lucky to work in a good company...
2) Rigol DS1052E = HRK 2700
3) Canon 5D Mark II = HRK 18000
4) Coca cola, 0.5l plastic bottle = HRK 8

In my city (Split), houses are around HRK 16000 per meter square, flats are around 18000... Off course, it much
depends of location, so prices can be 20% lower or higher...

HRK = Croatian Kuna

[EEVblog]

AUD250,000 per 500sq meter? per AUD80K wage per annum? well thats cheap!

Exactly. But if you believe the media, politicians, and supposedly every single Joe Blog in the street "no average person can afford to live in Sydney"!

But yeah, I'll complain too, housing prices in the majority of Sydney are just stupid.
I unfortunately bought at the peak of the biggest housing bubble in history, but since that time it's only crazily bubbled again in the majority of areas!
Plenty of busts within the boom though, houses only streets away from me that once sold for near $2M can now barely get $1M, yet my house has gone up 25%. Some people are just plain stupid!

Dave.

[EEVblog]

ARGHH!! RANT TIME!
Every goes on and on about how unaffordable housing in Sydney, and it's complete and utter bullshit.
The fact is you can get a house on your own 500sqm+ land in western Sydney with great public transport for under $250,000, and there are plenty of them.
People just need to get out of the stupid McMansion/McCastle Truman Show caffe-frigg'n-latte dream and be realistic!
/END RANT

Whoa mate, steady-up, I wasn't inferring the pathetic social-climber-rendered-brick-design-mortgaged-to-the-brink-of-disaster at all!
I probably coloured my statement by my preferred means of transport(the bicycle), and my being accustomed to being quite close to work (15km).

I was thinking alike distances and modes of transport- Sydney has far a far better setup with public transport, in terms of getting the workforce to work. I'm not aware of anyone in my workplace using public transport to get to work with any regularity.

My first post that really draws the attention of our host was to bring on a rant... Yeah, I'm on a good run this week -_-

Don't take it personally, my rants only need a small trigger!
I have a few pet hates, and "you can't afford a house in Sydney" just happens to be one of my pet hobby horses!
The crazy thing about the $250K houses in the western suburbs is that you can get to the city in under an hour by direct train, and I know people who pay millions for their little apartment box supposedly "close to work" (as the crow flies), but it can take them almost as long to get there!

Public transport access seems to be one of those pot-luck things.
I live in the hills which is notorious for having essentially zero public transport (esp train access), yet my wife now works in Parramatta and gets a direct bus almost at our front door step.
I'm forced to drive half way across Sydney and pay $2600/year in tolls :-(
I'd happily take twice as long to get to work if I could walk or cycle.

Dave.

[ngkee22]

Most first year Electrical Engineer graduates from Texas A&M University make fairly good starting salaries.  I started out in the mid 50k's but have progressed a good bit beyond that now, but I am also doing contract work.  I do electrical harness design work for vehicles, it pays well, but just not as interesting as I would like.

Here is a link to a survery they conduct every year on first jobs for new graduates.  There are a few people who really make a lot.
http://careercenter.tamu.edu/guides/reports/?sn=employers

[EEVblog]

To answer the survey:

For Sydney:

1) "Normal" Engineer's Salary = AU$60K/year AU$5000/month (beginning to 1-2years exp) (before tax)
2) Rigol DS1052E = AU$700 (auth dealer)
3) Fluke 87-V DMM = AU$700 (auth dealer)
4) Canon EOS 5D Mark II Body = AU$2500 (auth dealer)
5) PIC16F690 mcu (1 unit) = AU$4
6) atTiny13a mcu (1 unit) = AU$2.50
7) a tin of 325ml coca cola = (don't drink the stuff. Maybe AU$2)

Dave.

[ChrisGammell]

Living close to work can be a boon, I've moved much closer in the past year and a half and my stress has gone down considerably. Enough to not need to rant like Dave 

I think DJ Phil's estimate is a bit off on the starting salary of US engineer grads. 30k is a bit low, usually 45k average from what I've seen.

[Mechatrommer]

i'm not sure about your taxes, rent etc, but from figures so far, we are still the lowest paid workers here per stuffs prices. maybe i guess thats why i'm the only "crazy malaysian people" in here doing EE hobby. finding a person like me here is like 1 in a million, its only me, and only me with my world

@Dave: i hate to drink cola, its like biting my tounge and intestine, but i guess its everywhere and "drinked" by everybody else, just like big mac and.... beers.
@ngkee22: contracting job here... you can make millions, just if u have a good cabling with politicians and governments seniors. i dont have any interest... so far.
@chris: i agreed, less distance to workplace, less stress.

[marianoapp]

i live in Argentina and work as a software engineer with several years of experience. According to salary.com someone in my position in the US will earn about 85k USD per year or 7k per month

i earn about 650 USD per month, and i have an average to good paying job, so

7000 / 650 = 10.76

i have to work almost an order of magnitude more to buy the same things.. and the 50% customs tax and the 21% VAT sure don't help

[ChrisGammell]

@shafri, that's what the internet is for! Finding people with similar interests when geography doesn't cooperate. I'd suggest reading "Here Comes Everybody" by Clay Shirky...he makes a great point that some of the most successful MeetUp.com groups are some of the most obscure (i.e. Wiccan).

[TheWelly888]

I'd happily take twice as long to get to work if I could walk or cycle.
Dave.

Somehow "Walktime" or "Cycletime" rants do not have as much appeal as your Drivetime rants!