What's the real reason that laptop batteries are made not-accessible?

[cortex_m0]

That's a false comparison, how can you say it was a success when they removed it from all of their flagship models and people still kept buying the phones?

Because people kept buying the phones, and Apple did not back-track, and its competitors followed their lead.

There is no really good mobile phone platform on the market, it is not a matter of choosing the one I like best, I had to choose the one I hate least, and I have every right to complain about it, and I find corporate apologists and fanbois with their smug and dismissive attitudes to be some of the most irritating people on the planet.

You have every right to complain. Just recognize that what is preferred by you individually and what is preferred by the broad market are not necessarily linked.

[PlainName]

Because people kept buying the phones

"You can buy this car in any color you like so long as it's black"

"Instead of walking, people buy our cars so clearly people want black cars"

[SilverSolder]

[...]
At the time the iPhone eliminated the headphone jack, more than two-thirds of respondents to a web survey said they thought Apple removing the headphone jack was a mistake. I think it is clear now that their move was not a loser in the market place.
[...]

The fact that people are buying the gimped phones isn't evidence that they agreed with the de-contenting of the product.  Removing the headphone jack would not stop consumers buying phones - they are just too useful overall to reject completely for the sake of an annoyance, right?   Even hardcore headphone jack fans like me would not stop buying phones...

The survey result is probably the honest answer as to what consumers think - the fact that they still buy the phones is simply because really, we no longer have a choice these days...   we have to have a phone.

So what do consumers do, then?  If I can't get a phone with the features I want, my personal reaction is to keep older models that do have those features as long as possible.  Once I can't do that any longer, I will buy one of the de-contented crappy new phones, but it will be the cheapest model that does the job, because the flagship phones would no longer be a flagship to me...  more like a plastic bathtub with a pair of oars than a flagship - and I am not going to pay flagship prices for a plastic bathtub with oars, right? 
 
For the money saved with a cheaper phone, I can buy a dedicated FLAC player with a high end DAC that does have a headphone jack.  This has the side benefit that the surveillance capitalists are no longer able to track everything I choose to listen to....    so, maybe they have scored a bit of an own goal there, lol! 

[SilverSolder]

[...]
You have every right to complain. Just recognize that what is preferred by you individually and what is preferred by the broad market are not necessarily linked.

The proposition that the removal of the headphone jack was market-driven is entirely fallacious.   You even quoted a survey yourself that said 75% of consumers disagreed with it?

"Lumping it" is not the same as "liking it"...

[SilverSolder]

I hope the EU eventually investigates the "coincidence" that all the manufacturers drop replaceable batteries, ports, and SD cards from flagship models all at the same time.

Right. Add to your list disappeared features and peripherals all over the place. Why there is no built-in CD-RW drives anymore in the laptops, casette players in the cars? Big tech is robbing consumers!

I have no problem with removing peripherals and features that most people do not use.   Think of IEEE interfaces, for example.   Let's take them out of all the T&M equipment, the mass market would totally agree with you that they are useless! 

It seems to me that most people that listened to music with their phones used headphone jacks...   ?      Who actually asked for it to be "upgraded"?   Did you??

[SilverSolder]

One feature, one I consider genuinely useful, that digitally connected headphones (be it Bluetooth, Lightning, or USB-C), in a tightly controlled ecosystem like apple’s, is headphone volume safety. When using digitally-connected Apple-made headphones, iOS can carefully monitor the actual headphone output, optionally limiting to an actual volume output, and not just a “dumb” maximum setting that’s unaware of the sensitive of the headphones in use. With compatible headphones, you can view real-time output (see attached screenshot from my iPhone). You can optionally configure it to limit to a particular dB level, and again it’s based on actual content volume. So if you need to turn the volume way up for a quiet recording, you still can, and if you forget to turn it back down for a “hot” recording, it will protect your ears.

(Way better than the old EU volume limit, which has no way of knowing what headphones were in use, and so by law the limit was based on the included headphones, often leaving you with insufficient volume with headphones.)

What I don’t know is whether Apple has a mechanism to allow third-party Made for iPhone headphones with digital connections to work with this system. If they don’t, I hope they enable it eventually.

Back in the day, one of my friends had a little too much to drink at a music festival...  he fell asleep with his head more or less inside one of the big speakers at the event.  That cost him 30% reduced hearing in one ear... 

Moral of the story?  - you can legislate for seatbelts, volume limits, no tobacco, etc.,  but if people don't take care of themselves, some of them will come a gutsa! 

[tooki]

Back in the day, one of my friends had a little too much to drink at a music festival...  he fell asleep with his head more or less inside one of the big speakers at the event.  That cost him 30% reduced hearing in one ear... 

Moral of the story?  - you can legislate for seatbelts, volume limits, no tobacco, etc.,  but if people don't take care of themselves, some of them will come a gutsa! 

Oh jeez, that sucks for him!!!

Yeah, I never liked the EU volume limit, but I very much approve of the well-designed, opt-in features Apple puts in now.

What I actually don't mind is the volume limits Switzerland puts in place at concerts and clubs (the strictest limit in the world), which is an average of 100dB(A) over an hour. It's debatable whether it actually prevents hearing loss, but I simply find it more pleasant -- 100dB(A) is still louder than I actually care for, and I in no way prefer my music to be quiet! So every DJ booth here has to have a sound level meter, and they often use one with a big display that can be easily seen by staff and any interested patrons. (Police do perform spot checks, especially in places with reputations for not adhering to the law.)

[Rick Law]

Yeah. Batteries are held in place with this double sided stuff. Heck, most of the time, there's even a strip underneath that's supposed to make it easy to remove the double-sided tape and thus the battery. In practice, after a few months of use, with regular heating from the battery, the double-sided tape becomes almost impossible to remove this easily. So the strip is great for servicing batteries after just a short time of use - probably for phones still under warranty - but after 2 years or so, that becomes a lost cause and removing the battery almost always imply fighting with the adhesive and eventually butchering the battery, hoping you don't damage it enough for it to leak or something. Yes, done this a few times...

Just a few weeks ago, I replaced the battery on my Zenfone 2 (551ml, not the 2e) probably 10 years old by now (not sure of actual age since it was purchased use).  The glue strip that glues the battery holder was easy to pull out and still very flexible.  The double sided tape that held the battery to the battery holder was hardened and very difficult to remove.  Instead of a 1/2 day battery, now it is a 2 day one.  Difficult but not too bad.

On my new Samsung S9, battery lasts a day.  But looking at youtube for its battery removal, that looks like hell to remove.  It does still support SD card.

From a usability standpoint, I still prefer the Zenfone 2 (Andriod 6) over the Samsung S9.  The Zenfone is my internet device and Samsung is my backup (phone wise, I am using flip phone).  Speed isn't everything.

[james_s]

Because people kept buying the phones, and Apple did not back-track, and its competitors followed their lead.

That's meaningless, it tells you absolutely nothing due to the fact that virtually everyone needs a phone, and everyone copies pretty much whatever Apple does. Of course people are still buying the phones, because they have no other real choice. In order to have any meaningful data Apple would have to offer two very similar phones, one with a headphone jack and one without, and then if the one without sold better you could say it was a sound business decision. Why would anyone buy a phone without a headphone jack if they had a choice? What real advantage does not having it bring? You don't have to use it if it's there.

[james_s]

Yeah, I never liked the EU volume limit, but I very much approve of the well-designed, opt-in features Apple puts in now.

What I actually don't mind is the volume limits Switzerland puts in place at concerts and clubs (the strictest limit in the world), which is an average of 100dB(A) over an hour. It's debatable whether it actually prevents hearing loss, but I simply find it more pleasant -- 100dB(A) is still louder than I actually care for, and I in no way prefer my music to be quiet! So every DJ booth here has to have a sound level meter, and they often use one with a big display that can be easily seen by staff and any interested patrons. (Police do perform spot checks, especially in places with reputations for not adhering to the law.)

Yes I agree there. I have not been to a concert in years but in my younger days I went to a handful of them and every one of them was much too loud. I don't understand the point of making it so loud that it's just painful and you need to wear earplugs to even hear the music. If I just wanted auditory pain I could do it a lot more cheaply by sawing up sheetmetal on a table saw at home.

[SilverSolder]

Because people kept buying the phones, and Apple did not back-track, and its competitors followed their lead.

That's meaningless, it tells you absolutely nothing due to the fact that virtually everyone needs a phone, and everyone copies pretty much whatever Apple does. Of course people are still buying the phones, because they have no other real choice. In order to have any meaningful data Apple would have to offer two very similar phones, one with a headphone jack and one without, and then if the one without sold better you could say it was a sound business decision. Why would anyone buy a phone without a headphone jack if they had a choice? What real advantage does not having it bring? You don't have to use it if it's there.

AirPods (wireless earphones) now make up a significant percentage of Apple profits...   do we need to look any further to figure out why the headphone jack had to go? 

[cortex_m0]

The proposition that the removal of the headphone jack was market-driven is entirely fallacious.   You even quoted a survey yourself that said 75% of consumers disagreed with it?

Yes, I did. And obviously the respondents to that survey have since changed their minds, because nowhere close to 75% refused to buy an iPhone 7 and above.

[helius]

"% of people refused to buy X" is a strange syntax and a non-verifiable factoid.

[SilverSolder]

The proposition that the removal of the headphone jack was market-driven is entirely fallacious.   You even quoted a survey yourself that said 75% of consumers disagreed with it?

Yes, I did. And obviously the respondents to that survey have since changed their minds, because nowhere close to 75% refused to buy an iPhone 7 and above.

I would go further than that...  Many bought the Airpods, helping Apple's wearables division grow to nearly 10% of Apple's revenue.  Now you are going to tell us that this had nothing to do with Apple's decision making process, right?   

[PlainName]

The proposition that the removal of the headphone jack was market-driven is entirely fallacious.   You even quoted a survey yourself that said 75% of consumers disagreed with it?

Yes, I did. And obviously the respondents to that survey have since changed their minds, because nowhere close to 75% refused to buy an iPhone 7 and above.

Just shows how you misunderstood even the stuff you wrote! What you actually said was:

At the time the iPhone eliminated the headphone jack, more than two-thirds of respondents to a web survey said they thought Apple removing the headphone jack was a mistake.

Nothing there about anyone not buying anything. All they said was that they thought it was a mistake. Their preference was thus to retain the feature. No-one threatened not to buy the phone if it was removed, though - that's something you made up yourself.

[NiHaoMike]

No different from the VGA port disappearing from GPUs, since it got replaced by superior standards.

[cortex_m0]

"% of people refused to buy X" is a strange syntax and a non-verifiable factoid.

I don't know what you mean. iPhone sales are easily verifiable.

Now you are going to tell us that this had nothing to do with Apple's decision making process, right?   

No, I'm not a dummy. Apple saw the opportunity in headphones almost 10 years ago, that's why they bought Beats by Dre.  The strong sales of airpods and competitive wireless earbuds clearly mean the headphone jack isn't coming back.

The success of AirPods is illustrative of my point. A customer who is reluctantly buying a product does not buy a $159 accessory from the same manufacturer.

Nothing there about anyone not buying anything. All they said was that they thought it was a mistake. Their preference was thus to retain the feature. No-one threatened not to buy the phone if it was removed, though - that's something you made up yourself.

It's a bold strategy to both tell me I didn't understand what I read, and cite my retelling of what I supposedly didn't understand in the same reply.

I only brought it up because the initial reaction to the lack of a headphone jack was very negative, but only james_s still thinks getting rid of the headphone jack was a mistake. Something happened along the way to change lots of minds.

[helius]

"% of people refused to buy X" is a strange syntax and a non-verifiable factoid.

I don't know what you mean. iPhone sales are easily verifiable.

What do sales have to do with refusals? I think you're arguing in bad faith.

[SilverSolder]

"% of people refused to buy X" is a strange syntax and a non-verifiable factoid.

I don't know what you mean. iPhone sales are easily verifiable.

Now you are going to tell us that this had nothing to do with Apple's decision making process, right?   

No, I'm not a dummy. Apple saw the opportunity in headphones almost 10 years ago, that's why they bought Beats by Dre.  The strong sales of airpods and competitive wireless earbuds clearly mean the headphone jack isn't coming back.

The success of AirPods is illustrative of my point. A customer who is reluctantly buying a product does not buy a $159 accessory from the same manufacturer.

Nothing there about anyone not buying anything. All they said was that they thought it was a mistake. Their preference was thus to retain the feature. No-one threatened not to buy the phone if it was removed, though - that's something you made up yourself.

It's a bold strategy to both tell me I didn't understand what I read, and cite my retelling of what I supposedly didn't understand in the same reply.

I only brought it up because the initial reaction to the lack of a headphone jack was very negative, but only james_s still thinks getting rid of the headphone jack was a mistake. Something happened along the way to change lots of minds.

Getting rid of the headphone jack was not a mistake...  it was an intentional plan, brilliantly executed, to get a significant number of people to pay >10x more than they should for their headphones - which is a good match with paying >10x too much for their phones in the first place!

This thread is beginning to show how common it is for people to turn a blind eye to the plethora of information around them, seeking out and focusing only on that part of the information that aligns with their decision.   It's called "cognitive dissonance".

When two opposing ideas are psychologically inconsistent, there is a burning desire to reduce the gap between the inconsistent perceptions which can become overwhelming, especially if it is something we feel is erroneous...

[james_s]

I only brought it up because the initial reaction to the lack of a headphone jack was very negative, but only james_s still thinks getting rid of the headphone jack was a mistake. Something happened along the way to change lots of minds.

Total nonsense, I could find you dozens of people who would prefer to have the headphone jack, there are numerous people on this thread who agree. Now maybe we are using different definitions of "mistake", if the plan was to push people to buy expensive wireless ear buds and they're going to buy the phones anyway because they have no real choice then ok, it was a good but sleazy business decision because people are virtually forced to buy the phones anyway and now a lot of them will drop more money on airpods. Would I buy a phone without a headphone jack? Yes, grudgingly, if I can't buy a new iphone that has one, I'll be forced to buy one without at some point and I need a phone. Has my mind been changed? Will I be happy about it or think it's a good idea they removed it? Hell no, it is making the product worse and less desirable to me, if they offered one that still had the jack I would buy that one instead and so would most people. But the key detail here that you gloss over is THERE IS NO CHOICE! Apple dropped the headphone jack, across their entire range of phones. If you need a new phone, you either buy one without a headphone jack or you consider one of the few Android phones that do have one, and they have other negative aspects.

I don't know how you are taking the fact that people are still buying the phones (because what else are they going to do, not have a phone?) as minds being changed and thinking that lack of a headphone jack is somehow good or an improvement. Do you not understand the concept of buying something anyway even though there are negative aspects because every available choice has negative aspects? Do I just need to explain this differently? What would you suggest I do if my requirement is a phone running iOS and a very strong desire is is to have a headphone jack? Seriously, what is your suggestion within these constraints? Not having a phone is not an option, so if I do buy one without a jack are you actually going to try to say that means I've changed my mind and think removing the jack was actually a good idea? I'm genuinely confused here, I do not understand your thought process.

[james_s]

The success of AirPods is illustrative of my point. A customer who is reluctantly buying a product does not buy a $159 accessory from the same manufacturer.

Bullshit! I can introduce you to someone who reluctantly bought a set of airpods after reluctantly buying a new iPhone to replace the one that broke. Would that change your mind? Are you going to assume he is the only one?

[james_s]

No different from the VGA port disappearing from GPUs, since it got replaced by superior standards.

It's a lot different. VGA had been going away for a while, it was always an inferior solution for digital flat panels which have had DVI for at least 20 years. The only thing VGA makes any sense for is CRT monitors and those have been out of production for years. Analog audio products are widespread and still in production. The analog headphone jack is superior to bluetooth in many ways and it is still used by countless people. This is apples and oranges. A more similar comparison would be HDMI, Displayport or whatever they are using now disappearing and being replaced by a wireless video standard that requires purchasing a new monitor or using a dongle.

[Miyuki]

Total nonsense, I could find you dozens of people who would prefer to have the headphone jack, there are numerous people on this thread who agree.

But it is dozens of people vs millions who do not need it.

You have plenty o different phone forms, "dumb phones", rugged ones, with a qwerty keyboard ...
People in surveys and discussions are not ones buying phones.

Every manufacturer tries to copy Apple because it is the most successful one. You might like it or not. But it is fact.
And every try to make phone different failed. People just did not buy it. Even if they scream how great it is.
You can try to design an "ideal" phone but it will be ideal for you not for buying public. People just won't buy your phone.

And you can buy noname wireless earbuds for a single-digit price. They are manufactured in huge numbers because people want them.

[magic]

This right here. Sheeple gonna sheep.

Most of them damage their gear or use bloated apps that demand bi-yearly hardware replacement schedule anyway.
Bluetooth audio solves the "cables" problem which forced them to regularly replace headphones so far.
Now they will be replacing them when the dodgy-ass irreplaceable batteries crap out.
Shit tier wireless headphones aren't even that expensive anymore so who cares.

[heutnoch]

James can find you dozens of people who would appreciate headphone jacks and so can I. And not in the country or my city but among the peers I know. It is not dozens vs. millions. Decisions that are made and that sell, are by no means always “good” decisions. At least not in every sense. Most smartphones are bought by pretty silly reasons. So, they are built to satisfy silly needs. I myself by smartphones by pretty silly reasons. Never bought an iPhone through.

 But my last phone didn’t have a headphone jack though. I can’t expect a phone to be thin, IP68 and have all kind of connectors I like to have. I don’t use headphones often, so it didn’t bother me quite some time. But the moment I wanted to listen to music and load my phone at the same time came. I couldn’t do it and I didn’t like it. The phone never needed to be IP68 but I missed the headphone jack. So, I reactivated my old phone, just to listen to music. For a while I carried two phones around. One didn’t recognise SIM cards anymore, but it has a headphone jack and with all wireless communication turned of the battery life was plenty.

And now I have a $200 phone instead of a $800 phone. It features a high-capacity battery and a headphone jack. I can even use it to call people. Sometimes I miss my old phones camera (it was really good) but it is a phone, that can make pictures, and no camera I can make calls with.