What's the real reason that laptop batteries are made not-accessible?

[Ben321]

Same goes for phone batteries. I see no technical reason why they can't make batteries easily removable anymore. They say it's because it helps to make these modern slim computers even slimmer, but I don't see how that actually relates to it at all. I've always figured though it was so they could get more money from the customer, by charging them twice (or more) for the same computer. First the sale of the computer, and then any battery replacement. It's just a get quick money scheme for the company.

But what if it was more than just that? What if it had something to do with fighting crime? Criminals these days have gotten really smart. Thanks to mistakes made by criminals in the past, and thanks to various news reports you can read online about how various criminals got caught in the past (as well as sometimes leaks that result in tech articles on tech websites actually explaining how certain forensic techniques actually work), modern computer criminals have learned a LOT about how to protect themselves. This includes all kinds of things like using strong passwords on everything, using VPN, encrypting their files, etc.

One thing it seems criminals learned was that a computer or phone that you powered down from a menu option in the Windows start menu (or equivalent action for a cellphone) isn't actually shut down. It's simply put into a very low power mode in which even the OS isn't running, but it's not completely shut down. This means RAM memory is maintained in a powered on state so the physical RAM chips still store data from what you did while actually using the device, and some things I've read indicate that possibly even the GPS mode is enabled when the phone is supposedly powered down so it can still be tracked. As a result smart criminals started to remove the batteries from their phones when not in use. This keeps the GPS (in phones) from tracking them, and in about a minute (possibly less) the binary state of the transistors in the RAM chips is completely reset to 0, so no usable data left for the authorities to see what you had been doing on the computer.

As a result, civic minded computer and phone companies realized this was a problem so they started making it harder for badguys to power down their devices so as to make it easier for law enforcement to catch badguys. Or possibly, law enforcement realized it first and went to computer and phone companies and asked (or even demanded, under threat of prosecution for the crime of "obstruction") that these companies change their hardware to make it harder for badguys to hide their crimes by simply removing the battery from their device.

[Benta]

Never had a problem removing the battery from my laptop. What are you talking about?
Seems like total tin-foil hat to me.

[IanB]

One thing it seems criminals learned was that a computer or phone that you powered down from a menu option in the Windows start menu (or equivalent action for a cellphone) isn't actually shut down. It's simply put into a very low power mode in which even the OS isn't running, but it's not completely shut down.

This is actually not true. Phones and computers do have a "standby" mode, of course, but if you switch them off, they are actually off.

You are supposed to switch off your phone before replacing the SIM card, for instance, although the risk of harm if you don't is minimal.

And for laptops, you have to power them off before opening the case to access or repair internal components.

So I think you are completely barking up the wrong tree.

[Ben321]

Never had a problem removing the battery from my laptop. What are you talking about?
Seems like total tin-foil hat to me.

It depends on what laptop you have. Modern laptops have integrated batteries, that aren't even removable without special tools. Cellphones have had integrated batteries for a long time now.

[Ben321]

One thing it seems criminals learned was that a computer or phone that you powered down from a menu option in the Windows start menu (or equivalent action for a cellphone) isn't actually shut down. It's simply put into a very low power mode in which even the OS isn't running, but it's not completely shut down.

This is actually not true. Phones and computers do have a "standby" mode, of course, but if you switch them off, they are actually off.

You are supposed to switch off your phone before replacing the SIM card, for instance, although the risk of harm if you don't is minimal.

And for laptops, you have to power them off before opening the case to access or repair internal components.

So I think you are completely barking up the wrong tree.

While computers do shut down completely as far as running in a user-accessible way, some components remain powered. If your laptop has an Ethernet port, it remains powered so as to be able to accept a power-on signal sent over the network. I'm pretty sure that the RAM in a laptop also remains powered when you shut it off. It gets written over with the next time you boot the computer, but it doesn't get cleared just because you went to the start menu and selected shutdown to turn off the computer. The only way to clear a laptop's memory is to completely remove its battery. And I've heard some claims on other websites that a computer's coin-cell battery (sometimes called a clock battery or CMOS battery) can keep the RAM powered as well, in order to maintain all of the data stored in RAM.

Regarding cellphones, there's even more that's powered on when it's supposedly shut down completely. Every minute or so automatically (or alternatively when the power button is momentarily tapped manually) the screen will turn on dimly for a few seconds and show the battery status. I suspect it may also keep the RAM powered so that your phone's RAM doesn't get cleared when you power it off. And I know I've read claims that this partial power being used in a powered-off state also powers the GPS and possibly the cellphone radio in bursts, so that the phone's location can be tracked (either transmitted live over the cellphone radio, or saved to a system file for later retrieval by law enforcement, should the cellphone's user ever be so foolish as to do something that attracts the attention of law enforcement). If this is true, the only way to be sure that the cellphone isn't being tracked would be to remove the battery, but of course that isn't possible with any modern cellphones. Technically it's possible but, as I've seen in a cellphone battery removal YouTube video, the battery is usually glued in place with a special epoxy that can only removed by heating it to a very high temperature with a hot-air gun (which of course risks overheating and damaging various components in the phone that should not be heated, including the LiIon battery itself which can of course explode if it gets too hot). These batteries aren't designed to be removed except possibly by technicians working for the cellphone manufacturer who may have access to special solvents (who's chemical formula is a trade secret) designed specifically to dissolve that epoxy. And if removal of the battery is possible for a technician, it will cost the consumer quite a bit of money to pay them for the battery replacing service.

[ogden]

Pouch batteries are not safe. Any protective case will add to everything- dimensions, weigth and price. Integrated batteries are easily replaceable for every slim laptop I have used. Phone is different can of worms I dont want to open, literally.

[strawberry]

10mA will deplete laptop battery in less than one month

[fordem]

One thing it seems criminals learned was that a computer or phone that you powered down from a menu option in the Windows start menu (or equivalent action for a cellphone) isn't actually shut down. It's simply put into a very low power mode in which even the OS isn't running, but it's not completely shut down.

This is actually not true. Phones and computers do have a "standby" mode, of course, but if you switch them off, they are actually off.

You are supposed to switch off your phone before replacing the SIM card, for instance, although the risk of harm if you don't is minimal.

And for laptops, you have to power them off before opening the case to access or repair internal components.

So I think you are completely barking up the wrong tree.

While computers do shut down completely as far as running in a user-accessible way, some components remain powered. If your laptop has an Ethernet port, it remains powered so as to be able to accept a power-on signal sent over the network. I'm pretty sure that the RAM in a laptop also remains powered when you shut it off. It gets written over with the next time you boot the computer, but it doesn't get cleared just because you went to the start menu and selected shutdown to turn off the computer. The only way to clear a laptop's memory is to completely remove its battery. And I've heard some claims on other websites that a computer's coin-cell battery (sometimes called a clock battery or CMOS battery) can keep the RAM powered as well, in order to maintain all of the data stored in RAM.

Regarding cellphones, there's even more that's powered on when it's supposedly shut down completely. Every minute or so automatically (or alternatively when the power button is momentarily tapped manually) the screen will turn on dimly for a few seconds and show the battery status. I suspect it may also keep the RAM powered so that your phone's RAM doesn't get cleared when you power it off. And I know I've read claims that this partial power being used in a powered-off state also powers the GPS and possibly the cellphone radio in bursts, so that the phone's location can be tracked (either transmitted live over the cellphone radio, or saved to a system file for later retrieval by law enforcement, should the cellphone's user ever be so foolish as to do something that attracts the attention of law enforcement). If this is true, the only way to be sure that the cellphone isn't being tracked would be to remove the battery, but of course that isn't possible with any modern cellphones. Technically it's possible but, as I've seen in a cellphone battery removal YouTube video, the battery is usually glued in place with a special epoxy that can only removed by heating it to a very high temperature with a hot-air gun (which of course risks overheating and damaging various components in the phone that should not be heated, including the LiIon battery itself which can of course explode if it gets too hot). These batteries aren't designed to be removed except possibly by technicians working for the cellphone manufacturer who may have access to special solvents (who's chemical formula is a trade secret) designed specifically to dissolve that epoxy. And if removal of the battery is possible for a technician, it will cost the consumer quite a bit of money to pay them for the battery replacing service.

Seems to be a lot of paranoia here - my suggestion would be to get some hands on experience with the products and then think it through again.

For what it's worth, I've spent much of the last thirty years or so as an "on site tech" providing warranty support for server & client computing products for the three biggest names in the business, and I've also done cell phones at some point along the way - I've watched the evolution of the hardware from the removable battery models in previous years to the internal battery models that are now in current production - it's all about the packaging - you can make a way thinner product by mounting the battery internally.

[IanB]

Regarding cellphones, there's even more that's powered on when it's supposedly shut down completely. Every minute or so automatically (or alternatively when the power button is momentarily tapped manually) the screen will turn on dimly for a few seconds and show the battery status. I suspect it may also keep the RAM powered so that your phone's RAM doesn't get cleared when you power it off.

That is not consistent with my observation of iPhones that I own (several generations from early to latest). If you power down an iPhone it becomes somewhat dead and will not respond. To start it up you have to hold down the power button for 5 seconds, or plug in the power cable. Doing so will cause it to boot up, which takes a few seconds to complete. Given that it has to boot up, there is probably very little that is active while it is powered down (I am not an expert in this, but it must at least be able to monitor the power button, or it wouldn't switch on again).

If this is true, the only way to be sure that the cellphone isn't being tracked would be to remove the battery, but of course that isn't possible with any modern cellphones. Technically it's possible but, as I've seen in a cellphone battery removal YouTube video, the battery is usually glued in place with a special epoxy that can only removed by heating it to a very high temperature with a hot-air gun

Actually, iPhone batteries are very easy to remove if you have the right tools to open the case. There is a special tab to pull that unzips the glue and then the battery just falls out. The problem with battery replacement in iPhones is not so much physical, it is in the electronics. The batteries are coded to the phone with an embedded serial number, and if the phone does not recognize the battery it will not provide full functionality.

[james_s]

Have you taken apart one of the computers that uses one of these slender built in pouch batteries? The battery fits like a glove and making it removable would add at least a few mm to the thickness of the machine. Now personally I would happily take a thicker laptop to make room for a nice beefy removable battery but slim and sexy is the fad these days. It makes no sense to me but it isn't a conspiracy. Likewise just look at the stupid obsession with making display bezels razor thin, it has got to the point where they're making displays with stupid notches and holes cut out of them for sensors and cameras just to make the bezel a few mm thinner. Computers and smartphones have reached mature commodity status and now it is form over function.

[IanB]

Have you taken apart one of the computers that uses one of these slender built in pouch batteries? The battery fits like a glove and making it removable would add at least a few mm to the thickness of the machine. Now personally I would happily take a thicker laptop to make room for a nice beefy removable battery but slim and sexy is the fad these days. It makes no sense to me but it isn't a conspiracy. Likewise just look at the stupid obsession with making display bezels razor thin, it has got to the point where they're making displays with stupid notches and holes cut out of them for sensors and cameras just to make the bezel a few mm thinner. Computers and smartphones have reached mature commodity status and now it is form over function.

I have one of the latest model Dell slimline laptops and it is easy to open the case and access the internals. The battery is replaceable and comes in two sizes, the larger size taking the whole width of the case, and a smaller size that leaves room for an optional second disk drive. To remove the battery you just undo a couple of screws and unplug the connector.

I do agree that the obsession with making things too thin is a bit silly, and has one obvious downside of leaving less space for ports on the outside.

[Stray Electron]

  To answer the OP's question and not speculate as most here are doing; part of the reason for not making batteries accessible is planned obsolescence pure and simple. yeah, many of the people on this forum can open a cell phone or a laptop and replace the battery, but for 99% of the population once the battery dies, the owner's pitch them and replace them with a new one.  The manufacturers can also point to other issues such as warranties and that the user might injury themselves trying to replace a battery but like the old saying says, "Follow the money".

[3roomlab]

Actually, iPhone batteries are very easy to remove if you have the right tools to open the case. There is a special tab to pull that unzips the glue and then the battery just falls out. The problem with battery replacement in iPhones is not so much physical, it is in the electronics. The batteries are coded to the phone with an embedded serial number, and if the phone does not recognize the battery it will not provide full functionality.

I remember reading this thread, the BMS reset problem
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/experiences-with-ti-bq-management-ics-when-revelling-laptop-batteries/25/
The security of the batteries are possibly better than a crypto?

[cortex_m0]

While computers do shut down completely as far as running in a user-accessible way, some components remain powered. If your laptop has an Ethernet port, it remains powered so as to be able to accept a power-on signal sent over the network. I'm pretty sure that the RAM in a laptop also remains powered when you shut it off. It gets written over with the next time you boot the computer, but it doesn't get cleared just because you went to the start menu and selected shutdown to turn off the computer. The only way to clear a laptop's memory is to completely remove its battery. And I've heard some claims on other websites that a computer's coin-cell battery (sometimes called a clock battery or CMOS battery) can keep the RAM powered as well, in order to maintain all of the data stored in RAM.

Don't tell me what you've seen claimed on "other web sites". This is the EEVblog forum. Get your test kit out and prove it with data.

[ledtester]

  To answer the OP's question and not speculate as most here are doing; part of the reason for not making batteries accessible is planned obsolescence pure and simple.

Also manufacturers can get away with non-replaceable batteries because tech is changing so fast. A lot of people don't mind changing their phone or laptop every three years because the new models have a lot more to offer.

I also read that Apple sells a lot of its refurbished phones in the developing world. Making parts harder to replace keeps them that much more ahead of the competition in those markets.

[james_s]

I don't really get why people say the iPhone battery is non-replaceable. I've replaced batteries in a handful of them and it has never required any heroics. It isn't planned obsolescence, it's a simple matter of aesthetics. They want to make a thin, sleek device without any external hatches or doors. Whether that is desirable to a particular user is another matter but that's the reason they do it, and given how well these thin sleek devices are selling and the number of manufactures who follow, it seems to be a sound business decision.

[Ben321]

  To answer the OP's question and not speculate as most here are doing; part of the reason for not making batteries accessible is planned obsolescence pure and simple. yeah, many of the people on this forum can open a cell phone or a laptop and replace the battery, but for 99% of the population once the battery dies, the owner's pitch them and replace them with a new one.  The manufacturers can also point to other issues such as warranties and that the user might injury themselves trying to replace a battery but like the old saying says, "Follow the money".

Planned obsolescence means what exactly? That the company has no incentive to make it last longer, so they make it cheaper instead, and that inevitably results in it being less reliable so that it fails sooner? Or does it mean that the company builds things with intentionally sub-optimal parts and components with the specific intent of making the equipment fail early?

And regarding batteries not being accessible, can't you just make the case as tight as possible around the battery, allowing the battery to still be removable but with a very tight fit? Why glue it in place so that it can't be removed? Sounds to me like computer manufacturers teaming up with law enforcement to make it harder for criminals to fully power off their device, and thus making it harder to hide any evidence that may have been present on that device which would be wiped out in the event of a full power off.

Also I don't know if it's considered planned obsolescence if it can still be replaced by a technician. Planned obsolescence is usually only if it's absolutely impossible to replace, forcing the person to buy a completely new computer.

[Ben321]

I don't really get why people say the iPhone battery is non-replaceable. I've replaced batteries in a handful of them and it has never required any heroics. It isn't planned obsolescence, it's a simple matter of aesthetics. They want to make a thin, sleek device without any external hatches or doors. Whether that is desirable to a particular user is another matter but that's the reason they do it, and given how well these thin sleek devices are selling and the number of manufactures who follow, it seems to be a sound business decision.

I also like slim devices, but I prefer it if those slim devices have a back that can be removed, so that the battery can be removed.

[james_s]

And regarding batteries not being accessible, can't you just make the case as tight as possible around the battery, allowing the battery to still be removable but with a very tight fit? Why glue it in place so that it can't be removed? Sounds to me like computer manufacturers teaming up with law enforcement to make it harder for criminals to fully power off their device, and thus making it harder to hide any evidence that may have been present on that device which would be wiped out in the event of a full power off.

Also I don't know if it's considered planned obsolescence if it can still be replaced by a technician. Planned obsolescence is usually only if it's absolutely impossible to replace, forcing the person to buy a completely new computer.

Can you give an example of even one computer or smartphone where replacing the battery is "absolutely impossible"? I'm not aware of one. Even devices that have the battery glued in it can still be replaced, even if you have to take it to a technician that is properly equipped. Some batteries are held in by adhesive, but they are not potted in epoxy, they can still be replaced. Most people who buy these sort of devices don't care if they can replace the battery themselves, there is no business reason to invest the engineering and materials in making a robust mechanism to make the battery easily accessible.

[Ben321]

And regarding batteries not being accessible, can't you just make the case as tight as possible around the battery, allowing the battery to still be removable but with a very tight fit? Why glue it in place so that it can't be removed? Sounds to me like computer manufacturers teaming up with law enforcement to make it harder for criminals to fully power off their device, and thus making it harder to hide any evidence that may have been present on that device which would be wiped out in the event of a full power off.

Also I don't know if it's considered planned obsolescence if it can still be replaced by a technician. Planned obsolescence is usually only if it's absolutely impossible to replace, forcing the person to buy a completely new computer.

Can you give an example of even one computer or smartphone where replacing the battery is "absolutely impossible"? I'm not aware of one. Even devices that have the battery glued in it can still be replaced, even if you have to take it to a technician that is properly equipped. Some batteries are held in by adhesive, but they are not potted in epoxy, they can still be replaced. Most people who buy these sort of devices don't care if they can replace the battery themselves, there is no business reason to invest the engineering and materials in making a robust mechanism to make the battery easily accessible.

Simplest design is to make sure that the farthest back component in the laptop's case (closest to the removable panel back panel of the case, so as to have direct access to it after the panel is removed) is the battery. How hard is that? Just make sure there are no PCBs between the battery and the removable panel. Not exactly a major engineering achievement. If it's NOT the closest thing to the removable panel, then you can be sure the companies are trying to deter the end user from trying to remove it.

Regarding your statement about epoxy, it doesn't even need to be fully potted in epoxy. Just glue it in place with epoxy (much harder to remove than even super-glue). Only a few drops of epoxy are needed to glue the battery to whatever it's supposed to be mounted up against, and it's not removable by any conventional means. You literally need either a heat gun or some special solvent to remove that epoxy. You can't just pull hard enough to remove the battery with epoxy. Whatever it's epoxied to will break long before the epoxy itself breaks, if you just try to pull it out by brute force.

[cortex_m0]

Planned obsolescence means what exactly?

Batteries wear out with charge and discharge cycles. If the battery isn't easily replaceable, a device with a weak battery becomes obsolete to most customers.

In the more general case, we generally have a pretty good idea how to build truly durable things. But building a refrigerator that lasts 25 years isn't necessarily the optimal business strategy for Maytag or Samsung because customers tend to value low price over durability.

Also I don't know if it's considered planned obsolescence if it can still be replaced by a technician. Planned obsolescence is usually only if it's absolutely impossible to replace, forcing the person to buy a completely new computer.

Planned obsolescence succeeds when the consumer perceives an object is more economical to replace than repair. Technicians are expensive, especially if you want them to travel to you. So even if the repair ends up being something simple like a failed diode or swollen cap, the economical budget for a 3 year old $400 TV is pretty low.

[Ben321]

In the more general case, we generally have a pretty good idea how to build truly durable things.

Like things build to military specifications, designed not only to last a long time but also withstand harsh operating environments. There's even documented MIL-STD (military standards) that define exactly how things need to be built so that they are acceptable for military use. Part of me wishes everything (even consumer goods) was built to that standard, but then I also realize that if it was there would be so many people who wouldn't be able to afford it.

[BrokenYugo]

The explanation with the fewest assumptions is usually correct, IDK why people want a laptop that doubles as a cake knife, but they clearly do and packaging a LiPo in a user safe and serviceable package certainly hampers that, which people also seem fine with. If that weren't the case used ThinkPads and other enterprise grade laptops one can easily service wouldn't be such a great bargain. I've personally tried talking ordinary people down that path, their eyes glaze over and they go buy some consumer trash that's junk in 3 years for the same money.

[james_s]

Batteries wear out with charge and discharge cycles. If the battery isn't easily replaceable, a device with a weak battery becomes obsolete to most customers.

In the more general case, we generally have a pretty good idea how to build truly durable things. But building a refrigerator that lasts 25 years isn't necessarily the optimal business strategy for Maytag or Samsung because customers tend to value low price over durability.

That is not planned obsolescence, that is cost engineering. Planned obsolescence is engineering that has no other function than to deliberately limit lifespan, for example a timer that bricks something after a specified number of uses, or a system that is tied to a remote server for no reason than to be able to disable it.

You have said it yourself, customers tend to value low price over durability. Cutting corners to align with what customers value is not planned obsolescence. They are not making these things fail so people have to buy another one, they're making them as cheap as they can while still lasting long enough.

[james_s]

Like things build to military specifications, designed not only to last a long time but also withstand harsh operating environments. There's even documented MIL-STD (military standards) that define exactly how things need to be built so that they are acceptable for military use. Part of me wishes everything (even consumer goods) was built to that standard, but then I also realize that if it was there would be so many people who wouldn't be able to afford it.

That is an understatement. I don't know exactly what a military grade laptop would cost but I would guess at least $20k.