Author Topic: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?  (Read 7633 times)

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Offline KarelTopic starter

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When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« on: January 20, 2024, 10:40:06 am »
Given the facts that:

- Linux is the most used operating system in the world.

- Most instances on MS Azure are running Linux.

- MS maintains and offers their own Linux distro called "Mariner".

- MS has implented Linux into windows called "WSL2".

- MS has joined the Linux Foundation.

- MS hires Lennart Poettering, the inventor and lead programmer of systemd.

- MS has released the Edge webbrowser for Linux.

- MS has released Visual Studio Code for Linux

- MS enforces the TPM  >=2.00 so that nobody can tamper with their (modified) Linux kernel.

- MS has implemented SSH client in windows powershell.

- MS will implement the "sudo" command in windows powershell.

The last step missing is the replacement of the NT kernel with the Linux kernel.

When do you think this will happen?


edit: added Edge webbrowser, Lennart Poettering, Visual Studio Code
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 10:24:57 am by Karel »
 

Offline magic

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2024, 12:17:41 pm »
It can only happen when "Windows" becomes a meaningless label slapped on something that isn't Windows.

The kernel APIs on Windows are completely different, you can't reasonably port Windows to run on top of Linux.
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2024, 12:40:47 pm »
I don't care about the NT kernel, but I found that trend rather scary.
It looks like Linux might get extinguished in the next 10-20 years.

Another aspect, at some point Linus will have to retire anyway.
Dark times will come for Linux.  Not something to celebrate.

Offline nightfire

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2024, 01:46:57 pm »
Well, with about 30 years experience in IT, and having had a look into the open source world beginning with FreeBSD in 1998:

- Linux ist just a kernel- what you call "Linux" usually is the GNU Operating System with the linux kernel
- Operating systems are divided in many sections, mainly kernel, userland and 3rd party apps
- Linux as a kernel is replaceable, and probably someone else will continue to develop this thing further after Linux retires
- Most important are the whole API and interfaces to the userland/3rd party apps

This said, it would not surprise me if the NT kernel would be exchanged with some other kernel (be it Linux, BSD or something like the kernel in Mac OS X), retaining all that API stuff M$ introduced in the past. Or the cut old ties and announce that only .NET applications will be allowed to run in the future...

Actually, it seems that M$ has understood that operating systems nowadays are primarily used to provide a foundation for launching apps that rely on servers to be able to function- like facebook, instagram, google etc.

 

Offline magic

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2024, 01:57:31 pm »
Or the cut old ties and announce that only .NET applications will be allowed to run in the future...
If they are very generous, they might buy the Wine project, invest in it and bundle it with Windows LT for those wanting to run Win32 applications.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2024, 02:05:41 pm »
The Windows operating system and NT kernel are quite fundamentally different to Linux which is based on a POSIX-like architecture.

I don't see it happening because it would reduce vendor lock in to the Microsoft world.  For instance you would likely be able to run any "Windows" application on any Linux if the kernels were similar.  Microsoft could make some parts proprietary but the difficulty of porting those over would be less.  Drivers for graphics cards, networking and so on would be more reliable on Linux. 

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2024, 03:31:53 pm »
The Windows operating system and NT kernel are quite fundamentally different to Linux which is based on a POSIX-like architecture.

I don't see it happening because it would reduce vendor lock in to the Microsoft world.  For instance you would likely be able to run any "Windows" application on any Linux if the kernels were similar.  Microsoft could make some parts proprietary but the difficulty of porting those over would be less.  Drivers for graphics cards, networking and so on would be more reliable on Linux.
It looks to me Microsoft is losing money on Windows so it would make sense if they can dump Windows and replace it by some form of Linux. Their cash cow has always been applications that run on Windows.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2024, 03:52:23 pm »
Why would Microsoft dump the NT-Kernel?

That would alienate their customers. Do you know how much tooling depends on Windows?
You know, tooling that people use to actually do work. No I don't mean office. I mean CAD software and such.
There is decades of work in tools like Altium, Eplan, ArcGIS, Revit.

What will happen is Windows 12 push for ARM cores. Maybe an x86 emulator? They're doing their own silicon.
It will probably become a subscription model, or at least the AI copilot part will.

They will have to do something for the Home users, because Microsoft lost the young generation to Chromebooks and iPads on schools.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 03:54:04 pm by Jeroen3 »
 
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Offline nightfire

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2024, 04:07:25 pm »
The Windows operating system and NT kernel are quite fundamentally different to Linux which is based on a POSIX-like architecture.

I don't see it happening because it would reduce vendor lock in to the Microsoft world.  For instance you would likely be able to run any "Windows" application on any Linux if the kernels were similar.  Microsoft could make some parts proprietary but the difficulty of porting those over would be less.  Drivers for graphics cards, networking and so on would be more reliable on Linux.
It looks to me Microsoft is losing money on Windows so it would make sense if they can dump Windows and replace it by some form of Linux. Their cash cow has always been applications that run on Windows.
Well, They still manage to make money on Windows, but they also see that the trend points to other things nowadays- one of the reasons why MS is heavily going cloud and offering services- because those can be billed monthly and will generate a steady cashflow.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2024, 04:13:40 pm »
Why would Microsoft dump the NT-Kernel?

That would alienate their customers. Do you know how much tooling depends on Windows?
You know, tooling that people use to actually do work. No I don't mean office. I mean CAD software and such.
There is decades of work in tools like Altium, Eplan, ArcGIS, Revit.
The makers of those tools should have started porting to Linux a long time ago. Linux is much more suitable to run CAD software compared to Windows anyway.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2024, 04:28:14 pm »
You can't do that without porting hardware to Linux first, such as graphics. CADs do not draw straight on the display, they call graphics hardware.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2024, 04:46:50 pm »
To be fair whilst Linux did historically have difficulty with graphics drivers, the situation is much much better now.  Nvidia, AMD and Intel all have their own proprietary or open source drivers available, and Linux has display modesetting (drm) built in to the kernel now which works way better than the Windows solution.  So that should not be a barrier for CAD software.
 
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Offline DimitriP

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2024, 06:42:27 pm »
Quote
Actually, it seems that M$ has understood that operating systems nowadays are primarily used to provide a foundation for launching apps that rely on servers to be able to function- like facebook, instagram, google etc.

What you call "understood" I call MIS-understood.
You are describing chrome-os , and they attempted a mild version of it with the windows "S mode" abomination.

Hosted services are easier to manage , support and control than individual installations.
The user just wants to "get their stuff done".



   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2024, 06:48:05 pm »
You can't do that without porting hardware to Linux first, such as graphics. CADs do not draw straight on the display, they call graphics hardware.
No they don't. CAD software uses abstraction layers like OpenGL, Vulkan or (when ignorant) DirectX. The DOS days are long gone.

Graphics support on Linux has been excellent for over a decade already assuming you are not being stubborn by wanting to use open source drivers or buying a graphics card for which the manufacturer doesn't want to provide Linux drivers. For example: I used to be a big fan of Matrox video cards but stopped buying these because Matrox stopped providing Linux drivers.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline KarelTopic starter

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2024, 06:53:28 pm »
Technically, MS could replace the NT kernel with the Linux kernel and run their (proprietary / closed source) userland
and windows GUI on top and still charge the same $ for it.
Regarding backwards compatibility, they could also implement a binary translator or emulator.
Question is only, what would be more profitable in the long term. Keeping on maintaining the windows kernel or a
one time investment in the transition to a Linux kernel...
 

Offline AG6QR

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2024, 07:48:11 pm »
The makers of those tools should have started porting to Linux a long time ago. Linux is much more suitable to run CAD software compared to Windows anyway.
I was a software developer for Autodesk, working on AutoCAD and related products, from 1991 through 2016, so I have some historical insight.

When I started in 1991, most developers had a Sun workstation running Unix (SunOS, later Solaris) for software development, and a DOS box running DOS 5.0 for porting and testing. AutoCAD made the vast portion of its money on the DOS platform, because it was cheap for customers to buy.  But it was also a lousy platform for software development for something as big as AutoCAD. We had to wrestle with a Phar-Lap DOS extender, and a primitive Watcom compiler that didn't really have much of an IDE or debugger. So everything was developed and initially tested on Unix.  We also sold AutoCAD on HP-UX, Silicon Graphics, and a bunch of other Unix-ish platforms.

Autodesk had a significant body of software that was used to encapsulate UI and device drivers, so that menus and display code could be developed once at displayed on DOS, Windows, and various flavors of Unix.

Circa 1993-1996, after Windows NT was introduced, Windows became a platform that was workable for software development.  Management decided that it was too much effort to support all the different ports of AutoCAD, so AutoCAD became Windows-only.  It took almost no time for Windows-isms to creep into the code such that it couldn't be compiled on anything except Windows.  MFC, use of the registry, COM, and similar things were everywhere.

Funny thing was, around the time AutoCAD was becoming hopelessly mired in Windows, Linux distributions were becoming usable. If the timelines had been only slightly different, a Linux port of AutoCAD could have been possible in the 1990s.  Alas, it was not to be.

It may be possible to run some versions of AutoCAD under Linux using some form of emulation (a VM running Windows could certainly do it!), but as of October 23, Autodesk has posted an official position that AutoCAD and its verticals are not supported on Linux.

https://www.autodesk.com/support/technical/article/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/AutoCAD-and-verticals-on-Linux.html

Maybe someday...
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2024, 07:58:51 pm »
The Windows operating system and NT kernel are quite fundamentally different to Linux which is based on a POSIX-like architecture.

I don't see it happening because it would reduce vendor lock in to the Microsoft world.  For instance you would likely be able to run any "Windows" application on any Linux if the kernels were similar.  Microsoft could make some parts proprietary but the difficulty of porting those over would be less.  Drivers for graphics cards, networking and so on would be more reliable on Linux.
It's not true that all windows programs would run on GNU/Linux, if MS decided to use a Linux kernel for Windows. Remember, Linux is just the kernel. MS could keep all the graphical part proprietary, which would mean the only Windows software which would run under GNU/Linux would be some command line tools and drivers.
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2024, 08:05:23 pm »
Quote
Management decided that it was too much effort to support all the different ports of AutoCAD, so AutoCAD became Windows-only.

At least it avoided  the "linux is free, why do I have to pay for X ? " question.
Or getting burdened with the "when will you support the YZ distribution?".

Still, having a multiplatform product and dropping one always seemed wierd to me.

There is something to be said about being able to migrate a character based application
from the 1990s running on UNIX to  2023 running on windows with current hardware, other than the speed shock!

 
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Offline Perkele

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2024, 08:21:37 pm »
For those buying the computers in large quantities, operating systems are not important. Applications and backwards compatibility are.
Those are also Microsoft's main customers.
They are not willing to pay for the move, and never will be.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2024, 09:14:33 pm »
The Windows NT kernel is actually rather decent, and certainly the last thing that should be changed in Windows IMO. The idea doesn't make any sense.
 
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Offline radar_macgyver

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2024, 09:45:16 pm »
Theoretically, MS could fork Wine and rewrite the parts that are incomplete or based on stuff that wasn't 100% accurately reverse engineered, and call it the next generation of Windows.

Graphics support on Linux has been excellent for over a decade already assuming you are not being stubborn by wanting to use open source drivers ...
Hasn't been true for AMD Radeon cards for some time now, the mainline drivers for Radeon have active support from AMD.



(yes I know this wasn't about their GPUs, but still funny)
 

Online PlainName

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2024, 10:15:16 pm »
Given the facts that:

- Linux is the most used operating system in the world.

Context is everything. Linux may the most used OS, but Windows has the biggest desktop userbase.

Using your argument you could say that water is the most drunk fluid in the world so when are pubs going to stop selling beer.
 
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Offline gnif

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2024, 10:28:59 pm »
I don't care about the NT kernel, but I found that trend rather scary.
It looks like Linux might get extinguished in the next 10-20 years.

Sorry but no, if anything MS sees the writing on the wall, that Linux has become a true contender and it's too late now to extinguish it. Look at the commercial success of devices like the Steam Deck, or the fact that the android OS uses the Linux kernel.

With the excellent performance of hardware assisted virtualization, features like VFIO now supporting GPU pass-through, and vendors like Intel providing technologies like GVT-d, and AMD providing high core count CPUs with features like ECC as a standard, running Windows in a VM for desktop application workloads is becoming very common.

I have been a major part of this virtualization movement over the last 6 years (see https://looking-glass.io) and watched it grow from a few dozen randoms messing with the interesting technology, to the commercial success it is today with countless people shoving windows into a VM so they can still play games or use legacy software that do not provide a Linux port.

Add to that the implementation of proton bringing excellent DirectX compatibility to Wine on a commercial level (again by Valve), we are seeing a very large migration to the Linux desktop as evidenced by the kind of people we are seeing in the support channels that I am a part of.

Theoretically, MS could fork Wine and rewrite the parts that are incomplete or based on stuff that wasn't 100% accurately reverse engineered, and call it the next generation of Windows.

Graphics support on Linux has been excellent for over a decade already assuming you are not being stubborn by wanting to use open source drivers ...
Hasn't been true for AMD Radeon cards for some time now, the mainline drivers for Radeon have active support from AMD.

Sorry but this is not entirely accurate either. While the AMD kernel sources are available, they still depend on and use binary blobs like the ATOM bios (amdgpu actually implements a small virtual machine to execute the ATOM bios's IL). And with the lack of any form of documentation on what the GPU registers are, and what the bits in the registers do, having access to the code is largely useless. I have spent countless hours debugging AMD GPU VFIO reset issues and getting any form of information on AMD on how things work to diagnose them is like pulling teeth.

I had access to an AMD Radeon Team engineer for a long time while working through these issues, and while he wanted to help me, we kept running into red tape on what he could tell me, which was almost nothing. I even had direct communication with Lisa Su on the matter (which was astounding, I didn't expect her to respond to my correspondence). The revelation that BACO (an amd specific acronym) was useful to us took about 8 months of trying to tease out information. For the record, it's "Bus Active Controller Off", used for power saving, but we found we could be used to semi-reset the GPU to a mostly working state again after VM shutdown.

Edit: and yes, while i'd love to give team green the flick, the fact that AMD years later, still today can't implement a proper working reset of the GPU via standard means (ie, bus reset) has me very hesitant to use AMD GPUs for any purpose. I consider the GPUs bugged until such a fundamental flaw is fixed (ever wondered why NVidia GPUs can crash recover so well vs AMD even on Windows? this is why)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 10:51:14 pm by gnif »
 
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Offline Helix70

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2024, 10:40:55 pm »
Since Microsoft is now a services business, and don't rely heavily on Windows for revenue, why would they put the effort into switching the kernel after spending so much time, money and effort to decouple themselves from the desktop OS market?
 

Offline KarelTopic starter

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Re: When will MS replace the NT-kernel in windows?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2024, 11:31:38 pm »
... why would they put the effort into switching the kernel ...

So that they can fire the NT kernel maintenance team and save money?
 


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