EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: Beamin on March 27, 2019, 08:41:27 pm
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I watch a lot of astronomy lectures on YouTube, about 8 hours a day some days (yes I don't work), but "they" never answer one simple question: how did the dust get here? That's not an easy question because H and He formed in the big bang, light elements were formed in supernova's and heavier elements were formed in neutron star collisions(most of them we actually just figured this out), heavier elements from more super nova's. OK great, but you can't do chemistry in space. Why? Too diffuse and cold. Not even H2 forms its mainly stray H atoms which we know as powerful acids here on earth and only exist for a split second. As far as I know only TiO2 molecules can form in stars and that's cool red giants, due to too much heat. So a super nova blows off all these heavy atoms but how do they form the SiO2, O2, etc. that makes planets? We know the earth was once a hot ball where things could cool and form molecules but where did those molecules ; dust is made of molecules come from? Gas clouds that we can see in space are less dense then inside a vacuum tube; not much chemistry can go on. There seems in my mind anyways a gap between the proto gas cloud that forms solar systems and us. Why doesn't the sun have more heavy elements like earth if its the main "attracter" (not the Great Attractor beyond the Sloan Wall, that's a question for another post) ? Maybe this is so simple I am missing something.
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The Book of Genesis, Chapter 1.
Now seriously... I don't know.
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The gasses and vapour collapse under their own gravity into increasingly dense areas, then clumps and finally entire planets or stars. Then everything is mushed together with plenty of energy and chemistry can conveniently happen. You only need a tiny area with a higher average gravity to start pulling more matter into it, increasing the total mass and therefore pull and escalating the cycle.
http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/discovering_planets_beyond/how-do-planets-form (http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/discovering_planets_beyond/how-do-planets-form)
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-planets-coming-from-the-same-cloud-of-gas-have-different-compositions (https://www.quora.com/Why-do-planets-coming-from-the-same-cloud-of-gas-have-different-compositions)
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The gasses and vapour collapse under their own gravity into increasingly dense areas, then clumps and finally entire planets or stars. Then everything is mushed together with plenty of energy and chemistry can conveniently happen. You only need a tiny area with a higher average gravity to start pulling more matter into it, increasing the total mass and therefore pull and escalating the cycle.
So this is what I don't get; I should preference this with saying before I became disabled I was 25% to a chemistry degree and everything I learned says space is too cold and diffuse to form the dust. Liquids are the domain of chemistry and very rare in space. Space chemistry should be a topic of study.
Where did the dust come from?
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So this is what I don't get; I should preference this with saying before I became disabled I was 25% to a chemistry degree and everything I learned says space is too cold and diffuse to form the dust. Liquids are the domain of chemistry and very rare in space. Space chemistry should be a topic of study.
Where did the dust come from?
When matter compresses it heats up. This is as true in space as it is on Earth. When it whirls around in contracting clouds the particles experience friction and heat up immensely. The accretion disks around black holes emit all kinds of radiation due to the matter being subjected to massive amounts of energy. The orbital velocity is reduced by friction and the energy is converted into heat, causing the material to lose speed and fall into the gravity well.
Without being rude or terse, there's a vast library of fascination literature about how ever more complex atoms and molecules are formed by unimaginable amounts of time and energy. You'd probably learn a lot by even a cursory investigation of the information out there.
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So this is what I don't get; I should preference this with saying before I became disabled I was 25% to a chemistry degree and everything I learned says space is too cold and diffuse to form the dust. Liquids are the domain of chemistry and very rare in space. Space chemistry should be a topic of study.
Where did the dust come from?
When matter compresses it heats up. This is as true in space as it is on Earth. When it whirls around in contracting clouds the particles experience friction and heat up immensely. The accretion disks around black holes emit all kinds of radiation due to the matter being subjected to massive amounts of energy. The orbital velocity is reduced by friction and the energy is converted into heat, causing the material to lose speed and fall into the gravity well.
Without being rude or terse, there's a vast library of fascination literature about how ever more complex atoms and molecules are formed by unimaginable amounts of time and energy. You'd probably learn a lot by even a cursory investigation of the information out there.
Hmmm. I wonder what happened when the population 3 stars went to 2 that's when the dust formed?
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Hmmm. I wonder what happened when the population 3 stars went to 2 that's when the dust formed?
I'm not sure I understand your question.
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This has absolutely nothing to do with electrical engineering. Not only that there are libraries that could help you out. Make that effort. Do you think you are deep for posting it? Don't. Cluttering up a good blog with this is ridiculous.
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This has absolutely nothing to do with electrical engineering. Not only that there are libraries that could help you out. Make that effort. Do you think you are deep for posting it? Don't. Cluttering up a good blog with this is ridiculous.
Well Geoffey if you don't like it, don't read it. Reading your comment, it seems that you yourself may have an issue or two that should be addressed.
Many posts here are not strictly EE related, especially in the GENERAL CHAT section. :palm:
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Why is it when i see questions like this one i am almost 100% sure it came from Beamin.
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Isn't the answer simply gravity, it pulls the thin gas together which become hot and dense?
I'm not sure why the sun is mainly H and He while the earth is composed of heavier elements though, after earth we have (mars then) jupiter which is mostly H and He again.
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I'm not sure why the sun is mainly H and He while the earth is composed of heavier elements though, after earth we have (mars then) jupiter which is mostly H and He again.
There's plenty of hydrogen on Earth, just that it has reacted with oxygen to form water.
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I'm not sure why the sun is mainly H and He while the earth is composed of heavier elements though, after earth we have (mars then) jupiter which is mostly H and He again.
There's plenty of hydrogen on Earth, just that it has reacted with oxygen to form water.
True, but only at the surface, if you look at the earth as a whole it's less than 1% H, while jupiter is 89% hydrogen 10% helium. After having googled for a while, the answer seems to be that it was colder further out int the solar system, so more matter would condense and form planets, making them bigger. Nar the sun the solar wind would blow away the volatiles which could then be swept up by the big outer planets.
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One of the keys is to get some understanding of the time periods involved. Things have a long time to get together. A really long time. It is hard to conceive of these compared to normal human experience.
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Well Geoffey if you don't like it, don't read it.
That's fallacy. We surely could come up with something you wouldn't like but still would read and complain about.
Like, I don't know, gore and cheese pizza :-+, floating oscilloscopes :box:, practical construction of nuclear weapons :-DD
I'm not a big fan of those threads either. Little effort from the OP, not the best choice of forum for the topic to say the least, a bunch of responses trying to guess, some right, some wrong :wtf:
Don't get me started on text formatting.
[the sun the solar wind would blow away the volatiles which could then be swept up by the big outer planets.
That's what I heard too. It was also apparently accepted 20 years ago that supernovae are sufficient to produce all natural elements by nuclear fusion. I haven't followed this field since then.
As for the impossibility of chemical reactions in open space, didn't somebody discover a huge cloud of ethanol floating somewhere in the galaxy? Organic chemistry my ass ;)
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Chemistry does happen in space. Molecular clouds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_cloud) are a real thing and UV radiation is sufficient to ionize gasses so it can also produce other reactions.
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I watch a lot of astronomy lectures on YouTube, about 8 hours a day some days (yes I don't work), but "they" never answer one simple question: how did the dust get here?
yeah thats an easy part. worth thousands of people squeezing brains. keep thinking and hear speculations from the all knowing people. you are not going to get the answer from one heavy sided forum. protein was created from highly pressurized over unity gravitation whatever something, and then just happened to fall from the sky, and then you have amoeba, and then there's "consciousness" so they theorized... from a simple explosion. we should study how to make an airplane or a green alien from an random explosion.
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I watch a lot of astronomy lectures on YouTube, about 8 hours a day some days (yes I don't work), but "they" never answer one simple question: how did the dust get here?
yeah thats an easy part. worth thousands of people squeezing brains. keep thinking and hear speculations from the all knowing people. you are not going to get the answer from one heavy sided forum. protein was created from highly pressurized over unity gravitation whatever something, and then just happened to fall from the sky, and then you have amoeba, and then there's "consciousness" so they theorized... from a simple explosion. we should study how to make an airplane or a green alien from an random explosion.
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.
Without speculation and testing, how are we to figure anything out?
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I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.
Without speculation and testing, how are we to figure anything out?
He's religious and has had his arguments blown clean out of the water a couple of times, so he just hints at science and our current understanding being wrong without explicitly saying it. Lacking the knowledge or imagination to understand the processes and time-scales involved doesn't make them untrue.
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Why is it when i see questions like this one i am almost 100% sure it came from Beamin.
I agree. A steady stream of pointless, tedious off-topic drivel.
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The dust obviously comes from Flooby.... :-DD
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I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.
Without speculation and testing, how are we to figure anything out?
He's religious and has had his arguments blown clean out of the water a couple of times, so he just hints at science and our current understanding being wrong without explicitly saying it. Lacking the knowledge or imagination to understand the processes and time-scales involved doesn't make them untrue.
I had guessed, but I wasn't sure and I was trying to draw it out into the open.
What comes about by the scientific method can be wrong a billion times over, but the magic is in continual questioning and improvement. The magic about religious texts is that everything that's wrong becomes a parable.
I recently lost my father. He was, and I still am, an atheist. I usually avoid thinking about death, but it has consumed my thinking lately. I often envy people who believe there is someone behind the ultimate wheel. I think I'd trade the random bout of nihilistic existential dread that occurs while acting out life's mundanities for some kind of comforting belief but I can't unthink what I've thought or unknow what I've known.
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I think I'd trade the random bout of nihilistic existential dread that occurs while acting out life's mundanities for some kind of comforting belief
How do you know it would be a comforting belief? Many religions have a concept of hell and a belief that many people will end up there. Also, suppose the "higher power" is not benevolent? It could be disinterested, or it could be malevolent. Are humans any kind of model for what a higher power might be like, if we consider our record as custodians of lesser creatures and the environment around us?
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I'm not sure why the sun is mainly H and He while the earth is composed of heavier elements though, after earth we have (mars then) jupiter which is mostly H and He again.
That's mainly a question of separation of lighter elements from heavier elements. Considering that the sun is at the gravitational centre of the solar system, it is quite certain that the sun is rich in heavy elements. Whatever elements we find in the planetary bodies of the inner solar system we will find them even more so inside the sun.
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I think I'd trade the random bout of nihilistic existential dread that occurs while acting out life's mundanities for some kind of comforting belief
How do you know it would be a comforting belief? Many religions have a concept of hell and a belief that many people will end up there. Also, suppose the "higher power" is not benevolent? It could be disinterested, or it could be malevolent. Are humans any kind of model for what a higher power might be like, if we consider our record as custodians of lesser creatures and the environment around us?
"He's in a better place."
Every conversation I've had, face to face, with a person about the existence or absence of souls, gods, and the like, has boiled down to the other person not being able to accept that there isn't an afterlife. This might have been 10 conversations total, 10+ years ago, so it's not a large sample pool. The concept of hell is there, but have you ever talked to anyone who really thought they were going to hell?
All I said was "trade it for a comforting belief." I know it would be a comforting belief, because this is a hypothetical scenario I constructed where I could trade my belief in death and taxes for the belief in some sort of immortality, which is what really seems to drive the adherence to certain religions.
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I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.
Without speculation and testing, how are we to figure anything out?
He's religious and has had his arguments blown clean out of the water a couple of times, so he just hints at science and our current understanding being wrong without explicitly saying it. Lacking the knowledge or imagination to understand the processes and time-scales involved doesn't make them untrue.
insult and prejudice toward burqa is fine with this forum. so keep thinking and keep working ;)...
Many religions have a concept of hell and a belief that many people will end up there.
only if they want to be there. i can say many but i dont want to drag this discussion into something, i just give some insight from different point. not everything has to be answered otherwise you'll waste most of the time leaving the real problem unsolved. i would say spread the word/practice of peace and feed the poor. if i say more, i'll be cleared out of water and Mr Scram will smile. where we will end up is what we did. ymmv.
I recently lost my father. He was, and I still am, an atheist. I usually avoid thinking about death, but it has consumed my thinking lately. I often envy people who believe there is someone behind the ultimate wheel.
not really answering your question but once someone asked why there's mutilated childborn, and then they blamed "Something" for such bad happening on earth, i have the answer to that now. its just an excuse by people who want to burry their fault. its us who put the right ingredient into the mouth of our generations, or expose to some unnatural and inbalance elements developed for so called humanity achievement. and then there's term such as "negative mutation" but still deny the mutilated born is caused by us. well....
where's the dust come from? it comes from the molten larva, cooled and heated repeatedly until broken down. well thats me the clever guy thinking. but then thats the easiest part.
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insult and prejudice toward burqa is fine with this forum. so keep thinking and keep working ;)...
only if they want to be there. i can say many but i dont want to drag this discussion into something, i just give some insight from different point. not everything has to be answered otherwise you'll waste most of the time leaving the real problem unsolved. i would say spread the word/practice of peace and feed the poor. if i say more, i'll be cleared out of water and Mr Scram will smile. where we will end up is what we did. ymmv.
not really answering your question but once someone asked why there's mutilated childborn, and then they blamed "Something" for such bad happening on earth, i have the answer to that now. its just an excuse by people who want to burry their fault. its us who put the right ingredient into the mouth of our generations, or expose to some unnatural and inbalance elements developed for so called humanity achievement. and then there's term such as "negative mutation" but still deny the mutilated born is caused by us. well....
where's the dust come from? it comes from the molten larva, cooled and heated repeatedly until broken down. well thats me the clever guy thinking. but then thats the easiest part.
Nobody here mentioned nor insulted burqas. Being desperate to score points doesn't make it okay to frame people.
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Nobody here mentioned nor insulted burqas. Being desperate to score points doesn't make it okay to frame people.
It should also be noted that your argument is a very slippery slope. It's why Muslim women go veiled or completely covered in many places, because they're somehow made responsible for the lack of restraint of others. It's easily argued that people who get sexually harassed should have worn a burka.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/supersurvivors/201803/why-do-people-blame-the-victim (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/supersurvivors/201803/why-do-people-blame-the-victim)
your statements usually based on assumptions you have no clue about... you should set an example to no need lock your door while going to work, or sleep or at your shop etc... because you have nothing to be blamed about.
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It could be thread locking time. Anyone else suspect that Beamin is trolling us with these off topic posts designed to descend into an argument whilst the OP stands back and watches?
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Before thread is locked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuCn8ux2gbs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuCn8ux2gbs)
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your statements usually based on assumptions you have no clue about... you should set an example to no need lock your door while going to work, or sleep or at your shop etc... because you have nothing to be blamed about.
The only thing I don't have a clue about is what you're trying to say here. Whenever you're participating in discussions skirting religion things start getting rather vague. Please make sure to communicate clearly.
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It could be thread locking time. Anyone else suspect that Beamin is trolling us with these off topic posts designed to descend into an argument whilst the OP stands back and watches?
The questions are quite interesting if you ask me. How matter comes into being is a fairly factual question and as far from bait as I could imagine.
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How matter comes into being is a fairly factual question and as far from bait as I could imagine.
It's not like it's a mystery, though. Just go to YouTube and search for "we are stardust". Even in popular culture people know the answer.
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It's not like it's a mystery, though. Just go to YouTube and search for "we are stardust". Even in popular culture people know the answer.
Sure, you're right. It's still a fun subject to discuss, as different people will have varying input. I always learn something new, despite having looked into it for quite a bit already.
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The question (as I understood it) was that although (the heavier) elements come from supernovas how did those elements then form more complex molecules and condensed matter. Most popular science explanations don't go that deep into the details. I think it's pretty interesting subject as well.
If people see a post started by Beamin they can just skip it if they know they won't like it, I don't see the problem. If anyone, those complaining are the ones that are making inflammatory posts.
These physics related questions are definitely more on topic than the cat picture thread.
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your statements usually based on assumptions you have no clue about...
The only thing I don't have a clue about is what you're trying to say here.
He's religious and has had his arguments blown clean out of the water a couple of times, so he just hints at science and our current understanding being wrong without explicitly saying it. Lacking the knowledge or imagination to understand the processes and time-scales involved doesn't make them untrue.
keep forgetting things? you can read mind cant you? first i know, and then i dont know, thats why i said.. clueless...
btw stardust? believe whatever you want to believe... its exciting how bones build up from supernovae, Carl was right! he himself admitted, extraordinary claim needs extraordinary proof, but... very energetic drama...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVY2QVyyEA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVY2QVyyEA)
thousands of year ago someone claimed we are made up of water, no thats bullshit, we are made up of hydrogen and oxygen, because they says so, and because they are not he. ::)
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Remember, prior to gravity then chemistry taking over, the low densities of atoms and gasses are compressed by interstellar winds and at closer ranges, as the mass is too low for gravity to create the initial dust, good old fashioned ELECTROSTATIC forces attract molecules together making that dust.
(Beamin's question was puzzling to the scientific community until around 15 years ago on the space station where an astronaut shook some bread crumbs/salt in a transparent plastic bag in front of a camera being broadcasted to earth, when a scientist on the ground saw what was happening, the crumbs sticking together in the bag forming these larger chunks after the shaking stopped, he had a eureka moment and said, you just solved how the initial atoms come together to form larger dust particulates in space before gravity takes over in planet formation. Without gravity of us being on a planet like earth, i.e. being in space in a vacuum, without an atmosphere to interfere, it is the electrostatic force between atoms which dominates. And yes, under vast scales of time and empty space, some chemistry still takes place in the void when atoms with different charges attract to one another.)
(Yes, before this, fusion in the stars made these heavier elements which are being clumped up by the electrostatic forces prior to enough of these dust bundles of mass create enough gravity to construct asteroids, comets and planets.)
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The question (as I understood it) was that although (the heavier) elements come from supernovas how did those elements then form more complex molecules and condensed matter. Most popular science explanations don't go that deep into the details. I think it's pretty interesting subject as well.
Well, the general picture is that space dust clumps together over time, getting more and more compressed and getting hotter and hotter as it compresses. High pressure and heat are perfect for chemical reactions to happen. If a clump gets large enough the heat and pressure can become high enough for atomic fusion to happen and then a star ignites.
It is generally believed that the Earth started out as a red hot molten blob. When the outside cooled down it formed the Earth's crust. (The inside, of course, is still molten.)
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I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.
Without speculation and testing, how are we to figure anything out?
He's religious and has had his arguments blown clean out of the water a couple of times, so he just hints at science and our current understanding being wrong without explicitly saying it. Lacking the knowledge or imagination to understand the processes and time-scales involved doesn't make them untrue.
I see this a lot especially on youtube: It's too complicated complex and hard to understand so it must be impossible. These are the people that say "Scientists weren't there when it happened so they don't actually know that" To which I reply, No, they understand it, it's you that doesn't understand. I think the most marvelous thing is how just in our one tiny solar system rocks and gas could evolve into an astronaut that could measure, study and observe the rocks and gas. Think of what goes on in other more exotic solar systems, the ones that are truly rare?
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Remember, prior to gravity then chemistry taking over, the low densities of atoms and gasses are compressed by interstellar winds and at closer ranges, as the mass is too low for gravity to create the initial dust, good old fashioned ELECTROSTATIC forces attract molecules together making that dust.
(Beamin's question was puzzling to the scientific community until around 15 years ago on the space station where an astronaut shook some bread crumbs/salt in a transparent plastic bag in front of a camera being broadcasted to earth, when a scientist on the ground saw what was happening, the crumbs sticking together in the bag forming these larger chunks after the shaking stopped, he had a eureka moment and said, you just solved how the initial atoms come together to form larger dust particulates in space before gravity takes over in planet formation. Without gravity of us being on a planet like earth, i.e. being in space in a vacuum, without an atmosphere to interfere, it is the electrostatic force between atoms which dominates. And yes, under vast scales of time and empty space, some chemistry still takes place in the void when atoms with different charges attract to one another.)
(Yes, before this, fusion in the stars made these heavier elements which are being clumped up by the electrostatic forces prior to enough of these dust bundles of mass create enough gravity to construct asteroids, comets and planets.)
AH HA!!! That's the answer. Electrostatic attraction then UV ionizes the atoms into molecules and through insanely long time periods and huge numbers of bombardments of UV chemicals form. See it was more involved then just gas forming to planets I was looking for the in-between when there was just gas and no planets like in the time of pop 3 stars.
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No, they understand it, it's you that doesn't understand. I think the most marvelous thing is how just in our one tiny solar system rocks and gas could evolve into an astronaut that could measure, study and observe the rocks and gas.
science worshipper ;) i dont say astronauts are wrong but it is easy to miss that everythings are given, not by chance, including the laws of universe that human are eagerly trying to chase. if its by chance, you can have brain while form like a dust (rock), or at least head between your lap or walk on your face. and errr to be nitpick... astronauts do not do scientific measurement, scientists do, through their scientific/physics instrumentations brought by astronauts into space. you should learn how to phrase precisely because this is your dictionary. and in my dictionary, trying to conclude distance past events from what is possible in current event is called speculation, not that fascinating as most of "them" trying to portray. there are lots of details involved that are missing, not as simple as "universe made us" thing. extraordinary claim needs extraordinary proof. cheers.
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There is a Firesign Theater skit lampooning origin theories. As part of it they paraphrase the current scientific explanations as "in the beginning there were hot lumps" and so on. It is humorous, sounds just as silly as another they parody about the great mother turtle, and is actually totally consistent with current thinking - just rounded off and dumbed down for the masses.
It always reminds me that discussions of these types without real numbers and real differential equations integrated over time it is all just hand waving. It takes real work to get a real understanding of these things - both the things that seem pretty clear cut and the areas where there are weaknesses and/or inconsistencies. Without doing the work you can say anything you like.
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So this is what I don't get; I should preference this with saying before I became disabled I was 25% to a chemistry degree and everything I learned says space is too cold and diffuse to form the dust. Liquids are the domain of chemistry and very rare in space. Space chemistry should be a topic of study.
Where did the dust come from?
From the explosion of supernovas! Before that, first there was was Hydrogen, that created stars, which fused Hydrogen into Helium and a few light elements, but nothing heavier than Iron. But, big stars got bigger by gobbling up smaller ones, and then had the conditions to start fusing iron. Right after that, these massive stars blew up, and in the seconds and minutes of that explosion, created all the heavier elements.
If you want more, jump from Chemistry to AstroPhysics, they've been chewing on this bone for close to 100 years, now.
Jon
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We're all made of star stuff. Everything you see, hear, smell, feel or taste, think, or create, is the result of hydrogen and time. Stars fused lighter elements to make heavier elements, up to carbon (I think). Heavier elements were/are created in supernovas.
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Remember, prior to gravity then chemistry taking over, the low densities of atoms and gasses are compressed by interstellar winds and at closer ranges, as the mass is too low for gravity to create the initial dust, good old fashioned ELECTROSTATIC forces attract molecules together making that dust.
(Beamin's question was puzzling to the scientific community until around 15 years ago on the space station where an astronaut shook some bread crumbs/salt in a transparent plastic bag in front of a camera being broadcasted to earth, when a scientist on the ground saw what was happening, the crumbs sticking together in the bag forming these larger chunks after the shaking stopped, he had a eureka moment and said, you just solved how the initial atoms come together to form larger dust particulates in space before gravity takes over in planet formation. Without gravity of us being on a planet like earth, i.e. being in space in a vacuum, without an atmosphere to interfere, it is the electrostatic force between atoms which dominates. And yes, under vast scales of time and empty space, some chemistry still takes place in the void when atoms with different charges attract to one another.)
(Yes, before this, fusion in the stars made these heavier elements which are being clumped up by the electrostatic forces prior to enough of these dust bundles of mass create enough gravity to construct asteroids, comets and planets.)
[ Bold added to quote ]
Just to emphasize the point BrianHG made...
That insight (electrostatic force) was quite a break through (back in space shuttle days, if memory serve). Before that, it was very puzzling to researchers how clumps got started given gravity force would have been so very very small between the very small particles.
It was reported on many science journals/magazines as big news at the time that insight was confirmed on the shuttle.