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Which is more complex - car or an operating system?

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SparkyFX:
The problem is in the definition what constitutes an OS and if this is seen from the side of the result or from the side of the process.
If you read about how/under which circumstances the first OS were developed, there was not much hardware resources to work from. Of course a modern car would beat that in complexity several times.

Then there is this: an OS is the compiled result of a process and that result can be copied lossless. To produce a car the processes are a lot more complex to get one copy. The sum of the tooling alone would beat complexity.

NiHaoMike:

--- Quote from: schmitt trigger on June 02, 2020, 05:11:58 pm ---Modern, 8, 9 and 10 gear automatic transmissions on themselves are so spectacularly complex, that there are only a few companies that can design and build them.

--- End quote ---
The gearsets in a DCT are surprisingly simple - more or less a pair of manual transmissions with one handling the even gears and the other the odd gears. The complex part is the control system to smoothly switch between the two. Apparently, that's the most common cause of failure in some early DCTs.

Then there are CVTs which can be very simple mechanically, especially Toyota CVTs.

CatalinaWOW:

--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on June 03, 2020, 02:41:08 am ---
--- Quote from: schmitt trigger on June 02, 2020, 05:11:58 pm ---Modern, 8, 9 and 10 gear automatic transmissions on themselves are so spectacularly complex, that there are only a few companies that can design and build them.

--- End quote ---
The gearsets in a DCT are surprisingly simple - more or less a pair of manual transmissions with one handling the even gears and the other the odd gears. The complex part is the control system to smoothly switch between the two. Apparently, that's the most common cause of failure in some early DCTs.

Then there are CVTs which can be very simple mechanically, especially Toyota CVTs.

--- End quote ---

CVT is a great example.  They are conceptually extremely simple.  Four cones and a belt.  With infinite gear ratios they are absolutely ideal for matching the power band of an engine to current driving conditions.  At least that is the theory.  The devil is in the details, and the fact that this perfect solution is relatively rarely used in production vehicles indicates that there is some real "complexity" to implementation.

An analogy for the purely electronic among us is a buck configuration switching power supply.  An electronic switch.  It is always either on or off so no power is dissipated in the switch.  And then a simple capacitor to smooth the output.  What could be simpler?  But when it becomes time to actually implement one and get close to that theoretically perfect concept there are a myriad of details to get right.

james_s:

--- Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 02, 2020, 09:45:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: james_s on June 02, 2020, 09:18:02 pm ---The battery?

Windshield washer pump, light bulbs, a few other things, not a whole lot though.

So far I've never owned a car newer than 1990 and I doubt I'll ever have anything newer than early 2000's unless I just get some beater to get me around at some point. They're all crap now, nothing has piqued my interest in the least, especially now that I hardly ever drive anymore.

--- End quote ---
You absolutely positively have to mention this at the slightest provocation, don't you?  :-DD

--- End quote ---

You absolutely positively have to chime in every single time don't you?

james_s:

--- Quote from: CatalinaWOW on June 03, 2020, 04:21:11 am ---CVT is a great example.  They are conceptually extremely simple.  Four cones and a belt.  With infinite gear ratios they are absolutely ideal for matching the power band of an engine to current driving conditions.  At least that is the theory.  The devil is in the details, and the fact that this perfect solution is relatively rarely used in production vehicles indicates that there is some real "complexity" to implementation.

An analogy for the purely electronic among us is a buck configuration switching power supply.  An electronic switch.  It is always either on or off so no power is dissipated in the switch.  And then a simple capacitor to smooth the output.  What could be simpler?  But when it becomes time to actually implement one and get close to that theoretically perfect concept there are a myriad of details to get right.

--- End quote ---

CVTs are shit, my friend has one in some kinds of strange looking thing, Nissan I think. It failed at around 70k miles and cost a fortune to fix. She's not alone either, the forums are full of people having problems with them. Then there is the driving experience, they either feel just plain weird and disconcerting, and sound like something is very wrong when they are working properly, or the computer has been programmed to mimic the discrete shifts like a conventional transmission. It's one of those ideas that sounds good on paper but in practice it is garbage, at least it has been in the 3 or 4 cars I've driven that had one.

If I can't get a proper manual gearbox with 3 pedals I'm not buying. This is not negotiable.

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