Which Smart Thermostat would you choose?

[edy]

Hi everyone,

There is a smart-home energy incentive in my area supported by government grants to the utility. This time they offer free installation of a smart thermostat and the choices are:

1. ecobee3 lite



2. Honeywell Lyric T6



3. Nest Thermostat E




I have a choice of 1 of these 3 for them to install. Does anyone have experience with these and can tell me which they would prefer and why? I am totally new to "smart" home stuff, I don't have any Amazon or Google smart hubs or devices installed, nor committed into any platform/ecosystem. I have WiFi router in the house and that is it.

As far as my devices, I am using mostly iPhone and BlackBerry phones and a Roku TV stick. I don't know whether that will make any difference in connectivity to these smart thermostats or not. What I would like is to make sure that it remains:

a) functional and reliable with good feature set
b) doesn't take over my house (or be taken over by my utility company)
c) unlikely to be hacked and turned into a cryptocurrency miner
d) won't render my apps or phone obsolete in a few years
e) won't force me to buy another phone or upgrade just to access it
f) let me control things without always relying on a smartphone/computer/internet
g) not turn on the screen every time I walk by the thing (or let me disable that)
h) looks nice and makes my wife happy ('cuz she ultimately is THE BOSS of the thermostat) 

We were previously skeptical when the utility offered to install these for "free" a few years ago because part of the deal  was they were going to be able to remotely control your usage (especially during summer) to limit air-conditioning and my wife was paranoid they would cut us off on a hot day and we'd boil to death. I kept explaining that we can always over-ride it, but she would have none of that. This time though, I don't see anything mentioning this in the fine print... So I am not sure what the "catch" is, and I have had some friends do it as well during the last campaign a few months ago with no issues.

Any and all thoughts, suggestions to address the above would be most welcome! Thank you in advance!

[BrianHG]

Had one of these for over 40 years, see no reason to change.
It has that good old mercury tilt switches in them.  It will never fail for the next 40 years.
That is unless the angle of gravity changes in that time.

The control box is a different story.  Had to replace 1 relay over a 20 year period & a blower motor & a heat-pump...

[Bassman59]

Make sure whichever you choose allows direct access to the thermostat, rather than requiring that requests to change the temperature go through their cloud system. If your internet access goes down, you still need  to be able to control your thermostat.

[BrianHG]

[cvanc]

I'm not sure what an Ecobee 3 "light" is, but my house has two of the regular Ecobee 3's and we are very happy with them.

Pros:
1) Elegant interface box to allow use of existing 4-conductor wiring in the walls (many old homes have a 4-wire thermostat cable, and many new thermostats need 5 wires)
2) Very nice user interface and smartphone/PC app, with lots of data logging and analysis tools
3) The built-in motion sensor, and the remote sensors, work really well.

Cons:
1) Weather data seems to sometimes have a lag of a few hours (it shows the colder, middle-of-the-night temperature when I check in the AM)
2) For some reason it does not act like a clock and display the time.  It seems more than capable of doing this but they have not implemented a clock.

I would absolutely recommend an Ecobee to anyone looking for a new thermostat.  Good luck with your project.

[edy]

Thanks for the advice so far. I've attached some pictures of my current setup:

Honeywell
TH6110D1036 - 0733

Here's a link to what looks like the manual:

https://www.enviro-tec.com/pdf/iom/honeywell-69-1714.pdf

Mine shows only 4 wires?

Green - Fan Relay
White - Heat Relay
Black - (should this be yellow?)  Compressor contactor
Red - Heating Power
(notice R and Rc appear to be bridged on the screw-terminal - i.e. single transformer system)

The "C" wire which I don't have says it's optional with batteries. And I noticed my thermostat takes 2 AA batteries. How is the new thermostat going to work if it doesn't take batteries? How will it be powered? Is the "C" wire still in the wall somewhere or is this going to be an issue?

I have a furnace and air-conditioner, that's it. What's shown as typical 1H/1C with 1 transformer I assume is something like this (1 transformer not heat pump, but similar setup):



Thanks for any help.

I'll have to look through the manuals of the ecobee 3 lite, Nest E and Honeywell Lyric T6 to see if these are compatible with 4-wire and whether I have a 5th C wire anywhere in the wall. It looks like ecobee 3 lite has a power extender kit (PEK) that allows it, but Nest does some kind of "power cycling" to draw some periodic power to it's built-in battery/capacitor while the heating/cooling is off which may be an issue with the system constantly being cycled. Not sure about the Honeywell, that may need C all the time. I may have to run a new 5-wire cable which may complicated this otherwise "free" project.

Some have suggested to repurpose the "G" wire for this... which will kill my options to run the fan independently but apparently the fan/blower will still automatically run when the heating or air-condition is on. I never use the fan separately anyways without at least the heat or cool being active. Not sure if this is a good idea or not?

[IanMacdonald]

Ethical problem with this is that it isn't free. You are paying for it through levies on your electricity bill.

[nctnico]

Usually a thermostat is expected to last for 20 to 30 years. Good luck finding a phone which can run the app in 5 years from now. Besides that why would I want to use my phone to operate the thermostat? Just get a programmable one if you don't want to set the temperature manually.

[Mr. Scram]

Considering how consistently horrible these smart products are, I would kindly thank them and leave it at that. Security risks, bad support and privacy concerns are just a few of the common issues. You seem to be aware of the possible issues and unfortunately there's little reason to think the current generation of devices won't suffer from them.

[edy]

Agreed with all the points above. I'm going to inquire as to a few things before they do anything:

1. which thermostat allows full manual programming on device screen (no phone app/internet needed)
2. will they install the "C" wire or some adapter kit or do I need to waste money/time dong it
3. do I keep my old thermostat so I can swap it in in case of an emergency
4. can I run the thermostat "off line" if I choose to (no internet hookup)

Yes I know I am paying for the program indirectly.... Same goes for the "LED light" upgrade that ran through my office twice already. I kept the old halogen bulbs, they installed a bunch of LED each time until all my lights were replaced. If it is not going to be messy, at least I want to get something back from all these levies/subsidies I have been paying to the utility.

I've attached what I believe represents the wiring for my thermostat. I see that the red wire is 24VAC from a transformer, and that the thermostat "bridges" across to the other wires for the fan, furnace or AC to complete the loop and toggle the relay. As long as the relay is activated, there is 24VAC going through the circuit?

I also found this video which explains a few things:




1. Honeywell mentions re-purposing of "G" as the "C" wire
2. Honeywell says it depends on building code (anyone know if this is ok in Toronto?)
3. The video shows jumping the Y and G on the control board
 - I presume this is so the fan works when the air-conditioner is on
4. The fan will be automatically activated by the furnace when heating, but not cooling, necessitating the jumper?

I am assuming that the furnace control board manages to handle the fan itself whenever the heat is on, so it doesn't care what signal is coming from the thermostat. But for the A/C, the fan is turned on by the thermostat which should ALWAYS turn both the G and Y relays on whenever cooling is active (or optionally just G when you want fan but no additional compressor A/C). I can't imagine the compressor Y ever being active but not the fan G.... unless there is some "delay" the thermostat introduces to let the compressor start slightly before the fan, or is that not the case?

So by shorting Y and G terminals at the furnace control board, you are essentially sending the 24VAC signal through both Y/G relays at the same time when the A/C is activated, ensuring the fan is going to be on whenever the cooling system is on, correct? But that limits the ability to control the fan independently.... although I have never ever used the fan separately in any case.

I found this to be a good quick learning resource:

https://www.qwik.com/education-and-training/articles/thermostatic-wiring-principles

And this was very helpful in answering many of my questions:

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/58510/is-there-any-risk-of-running-both-the-fan-and-furnace-at-the-same-time

[ajb]

I have a Lyric T6 -- chosen by virtue of the fact that my father, who does HVAC work as a side job, had it lying around when I asked him about thermostats that have a fan circulation mode.

The setup process was a pain, took literally a dozen or more tries to get it to complete successfully--I don't know if that was a fluke or is typical.  The installation does assume that a professional is doing it, so you'll need to make sure you know some of the details of your system.  If you tell it the basic config, the other defaults are probably fine.  Wiring-wise, the T6 supports like a bajillion different system configurations, so it has probably 16 or so terminals.  You'll need to look at the different configurations in the manual to be sure you hook it up right. 

I'm not sure if there's a way to fully configure the thermostat without the app, but worst case, you can change your wifi settings after setup to cut the thermostat off from the internet if you're concerned about security.  Of course a downside to that is thermostats that use the internet for local weather info or whatever will lose any those features.

As a thermostat the T6 works just fine.  The fan circulation is a big help in our house--our system doesn't run very much except when it's very hot or very cold, so having the fan cycle on and off independently of the heat pump really helps keep the upstairs at a reasonable temperature, which is the main reason I got it.  Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be a common feature of more basic thermostats, otherwise I probably would have gotten one of those.  The smart features are nice, and it's certainly convenient to be able to control the system remotely, but personally they're not worth paying full price for a smart thermostat.

[GreyWoolfe]

Usually a thermostat is expected to last for 20 to 30 years. Good luck finding a phone which can run the app in 5 years from now. Besides that why would I want to use my phone to operate the thermostat? Just get a programmable one if you don't want to set the temperature manually.

We finally had to replace the 28 year old AC system completely.  The install tech said that we were going to get a WiFi enabled thermostat.  I asked for a regular thermostat.  He said it was a free upgrade with a look of incredulity that I wouldn't want it.  I had to repeat myself a second time to get the plain programmable one.  I have no urge to access my thermostat through my network or my phone, thank you.  I would have been happy with the old skool mechanical thermostat, SWMBO likes the programmability.

[meeko]

My parents have a Lyric T6.  The app claims to support Android 4.x and up, but when we tried to install it on Mom's ASUS MeMO Pad 7, which runs 4.4, it said it's not supported.  Same on Dad's 1st gen. Galaxy Note, running 4.1 or .2, IIRC.  It works on my HTC One M9 with Android 7.0, though.  There's also no browser-based interface, for accessing it from a PC.  You can adjust the set temperature directly on the unit, but that's about it.

One of the guys at work has an Ecobee 3 (not the Lite), with a couple of extra sensors, and he loves it.  He says the app's well thought out, and the automatic scheduling works great.  It knows what time he usually goes to bed, for example, and starts adjusting the heat based on the bedroom sensor a little in advance.

I'm in Toronto, too, and am booked in to replace my old electro-mechanical timer-based setback thermostat (which the timer crapped out on, so is basically just a dumb 'stat) with the Ecobee on Apr. 10.  Hopefully the installer'll have the extra transformer and relay it'll need to hook up to my aquastat, which only has TT terminals (I've got an old oil-fired boiler).  I do have a 3-wire cable in the wall, with only 2 wires hooked up.

[edy]

Thanks, I figure there are a lot of people checking out this free Smart thermostat program. A search on Google seems to automatically fill in the term comparing Ecobee 3 lite, Nest E and... you guessed it... Honeywell Lyric T6. Then again, Google also sees my IP and may be feeding me popular searches for my area which happens to have this utility incentive going on. I know they are probably commonly compared anyways as they are in the same "class" and price but still to be the exact search for the 3 units offered by the GreenON.ca fund doesn't seem like purely coincidence.

My thoughts so far:

1. Honeywell Lyric T5

I was a bit leaning towards the Honeywell Lyric T6 only because it seemed to be the least "tethered" to an app and sounded like it was going to offer the best control on-screen without needing any internet/phone connectivity.... which after some of the comments here suggest, sounds like it doesn't fully support anyways (at least on Android). Mind you, I have an iPhone laying around that I connect to the internet using WiFi so I am hoping the support for the iPhone app is better.

I am not counting on the app feature working forever. I will eventually unplug it from the internet and don't care about any app connectivity. But 10 years down the road it still needs to allow me to control things wish as much local on-screen configuration as possible and a display on which I can actually figure out what is happening and program weekly cycles. This would be an improvement over my existing Honeywell which, mind you, I have never bothered to actually program even.

This thermostat also seems to be the most "drab" in design but seems to my nerdy eyes to be the most simple to just do the job when all the "Smart" aspects become obsolete due to app support issues and/or other upgrades, and easiest to continue to program.


2. Ecobee 3 lite

This one seems to be quite well-liked. The unit looks sleek and seems fancy. I'm not sure how configurable it is on-screen and what the app support is like, and whether it will have the same kind of long-term durability. It has a PEK module which, if supplied by the installer for free would easily eliminate the need for a C-wire without resorting to the G-wire "fix" shown previously (repurposing the fan wire). It also has HomeKit/Apple/Siri support, etc.

My main concern is how functional will this be in the long-term. Do I have to always use Internet and an app, can I access it any other way or configure it totally on-screen when all the "Smart" stuff goes obsolete down the road?


3. Nest E

This one I like the least because the display looks, well, horrible. It's fuzzy and I know it's supposed to be blending and kind of soft on the eyes and unobtrusive. But that makes me think it is going to need to be programmed by App mostly and rely on the internet connectivity.  My worry is, without the app or internet, how easy will it be to configure and reprogram it in the future? Is this going to be something that goes obsolete or requires constant updating of apps on the phone?

[amyk]

We were previously skeptical when the utility offered to install these for "free" a few years ago because part of the deal  was they were going to be able to remotely control your usage (especially during summer) to limit air-conditioning and my wife was paranoid they would cut us off on a hot day and we'd boil to death. I kept explaining that we can always over-ride it, but she would have none of that. This time though, I don't see anything mentioning this in the fine print... So I am not sure what the "catch" is, and I have had some friends do it as well during the last campaign a few months ago with no issues.

If they're not doing it now they'll do it in the future. IMHO enough reason to refuse the "free" offer.

A plain "dumb" thermostat is enough for me. One of these will last many decades with no maintenance needed.

[mikeinnc]

Let me add my bit. I'm in Perth, Western Australia - where it gets hot; not very cold and is summer at Christmas! So, a couple of years ago, I bought and installed an Ecobee 3 for my Carrier reverse cycle air conditioning system. It is not at all usual in Australia to be able to easily purchase a replacement thermostat, nor to install one yourself, so I had to get mine from a US distributor. It was easy for me to install and it works well. BUT - Ecobee really do not support anywhere outside of North America! So, my weather is really screwed - it will tell me it's going to be 35C in the middle of the night and 17C at midday!! Yeah, right! Why they cannot have a 'longitude' adjustment in their app so they at least get the day / night weather right, I do not understand. It knows exactly where it is in terms of Lat / Long! The remote sensors are excellent, and certainly help with controlling the aircon when it is on. Ecobee have been helpful when needed, but it is irritating that other parts of the world except USA and Canada are essentially 'transparent'. Would I recommend one? Yes - but with reservations. 

[Red Squirrel]

One that does not require an "app" or a cloud service, but can be controlled via a web interface that runs only on a local server.

I'm not sure if such solution exists for sale as all this stuff is designed to be cloud based and spy on you.  So I made my own.  At the time I did not know about micro controllers, not even Arduino or Raspberry Pi, so I ended up finding a relay control board (this one: https://www.canakit.com/4-port-usb-relay-controller.html ) that also has temp sensor inputs.  The code that runs it is C++ and just talks to the board via serial commands.  If I was to do it over again probably would have gone Arduino or Raspberry Pi.   Raspberry Pi would be self contained (could run web interface too) while Arduino would still require a server.

That particular board has a Pic MCU, so I imagine it would not be too hard to reprogram it, either.   

[edy]

I checked my HVAC equipment at home and confirmed the cable going to the upstairs thermostat is only 4-wire. So unless the Utility contractors who are hired to to the Eco Incentive will provide the PEK device for an Ecobee (for example) or find another way to power any of these Smart Thermostats, it looks like I won't do anything (short of repurposing the fan wire - still possibly an option but may be against their recommendations). Why the builders do this (and this is a relatively new home we bought before anyone moved in) never ceases to amaze me. They save on a wire with no consideration for future requirements, breakage or any other possible issue, leaving you with the bare minimum and forcing you to use batteries in your thermostat.    It can't be to just cut costs... must be just over-sight.

[amyk]

I checked my HVAC equipment at home and confirmed the cable going to the upstairs thermostat is only 4-wire. So unless the Utility contractors who are hired to to the Eco Incentive will provide the PEK device for an Ecobee (for example) or find another way to power any of these Smart Thermostats, it looks like I won't do anything (short of repurposing the fan wire - still possibly an option but may be against their recommendations). Why the builders do this (and this is a relatively new home we bought before anyone moved in) never ceases to amaze me. They save on a wire with no consideration for future requirements, breakage or any other possible issue, leaving you with the bare minimum and forcing you to use batteries in your thermostat.    It can't be to just cut costs... must be just over-sight.

"Real thermostats don't need a separate power source."

[edy]

I just called to schedule the install visit and poked around with some questions. Apparently the installers take your old thermostat away after they install the "smart" one!!!     They don't want you to sell the new one, or maybe the old one, or pretend you are using it and put in the old one? Or is this some kind of "proof" to the utility so the installing companies get reimbursed???

Anyways, I was hoping I could keep my old one (which is not too bad.. a Honeywell TH6110D1036 - 0733) and have it around in case as backup if the "smart" one ends up crapping out.

My only other option is to buy a cheap piece of garbage and install it instead. Any ideas? The cheapest one I can find that seems to fit is a non-programmable "manual" digital Honeywell for about $30 that looks something like this:

http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/honey-non-programmable-thermostat-0529214p.html#srp

I can't seem to find anything cheaper in my area. There are a few other catches. One is, if I buy it and install it and they don't end up giving me a smart thermostat, I will be stuck with it (or will need to return it). Either way I would be paying $30 +tax now to put in a "sacrificial" thermostat that they take away... or pay nothing now and give them my Honeywell, and then have to buy another thermostat in the future if the smart one craps out on me (and that is the risk).

Ideas? This "free"program is getting to be more of a pain than it's worth. 

[Red Squirrel]

Yep just get the cheapest one you can find and install it first.

[james_s]

I'd be curious to see some actual data on the energy consumption between one of these fancy cloud enabled thermostats and a plain old fashioned programmable thermostat. I mean there's no magic, it still takes the same amount of energy to heat the house to the same temperature. As much as I love technology, I'm not a fan of technology just for the sake of technology.

[edy]

It makes a difference in the consumption of energy if you allow it to "learn" your behaviors and also adjust to your location, and picks up data on the outside weather... in which case it would be automatically working the "magic" to take advantage of the heating/cooling events. If it behaved *exactly* like a dumb thermostat, you are correct, it would make NO difference whatsoever.

And that is the issue... people are generally lazy. We have this Honeywell programmable thermostat for say 10 years, never once actually programmed it. We leave it around 22.5 or 23 C most of the time. In winter I can handle colder like 20, but my wife wants it warmer. We also have upstairs rooms over the garage that get colder so it needs to be set to 23 so those rooms get around 21. In summer, even though I can handle a bit warmer (like 24 or 25), again the air-conditioner cools downstairs but upstairs rooms remain hot, so wife sets it to 20 or 21 to make upstairs comfortable.

The temperature settings are NEVER adjusted automatically. We have a "set-point" for winter, and another "set-point" for summer and typically that stays the same whether we are at home or work, or school, or away, etc... We switch the system over from HEAT to COOL and vice-versa and that is it. Spring/Fall become a constant mess of switching between HEAT/COOL.  All and all... we are LAZY when it comes to working out thermostat and thinking about efficiency.

So if *most* people also treat their thermostats with the same inattentive mindset ("set it and leave it") and really never pay attention to it, of course it will use more energy than necessary. You have no need to air-condition your house when you are away from home during the summer, but at the same time you want to come home to a cool house, and vice-versa in winter. And during spring/fall and fluctuations even during the day will necessitate changing the heat/cool mode so that you can use some of the outside temperature equilibration to assist in regulation.

Imagine now you install once of these smart learning thermostats and the phone apps. Now it knows when you are away, when you come home typically, it figures out your weekend and weekday schedule so you don't have to program anything necessarily. It knows the outside temperatures and can plan on when to heat or cool, how much time will be needed to the temperature to ramp up or down, and can do a better job at efficiency than you could or even bother wanting to. You only tell it what you are comfortable being at during different season (since you may wear different clothing in the house and also feel different based on humidity levels), and if you give the system enough autonomy hopefully you will always be comfortable and never worry about it (at least that's how it should work in theory)! 

[james_s]

I've had a basic programmable thermostat of one sort or another for around 20 years and I've always programmed it. I have the temperature come up a bit in the morning before I go to bed, then back off a few degrees during the day. Then it warms up again in the evening and backs off to the lowest point shortly before I go to bed. On the weekends it uses a different schedule that is set warmer during the day and cooler at night. If the AI is anything like my other experiences with AI, a thermostat that tries to learn and guess what I want will get it wrong at least as often as it gets it right and lead to me having to screw with the thing manually even more than I do with the standard programmable thermostat. Being too lazy to program the thing doesn't count, naturally it's not going to work well if you don't bother to program it.

[edy]

Being too lazy to program the thing doesn't count, naturally it's not going to work well if you don't bother to program it.

Yes exactly! I think these "Utility Incentives" are meant to target the general random cross-section of the home consumer public that pretty much leaves their VCR's blinking on 12:00 if you know what I mean. We fall into that category. Our local power utility likely surveyed and analysed a random assortment of homes or took data from previous incentive programs and saw that the VAST MAJORITY of the people never bother to program their thermostat. So they figured that on average, providing the program will:

(a) likely improve the majority of situations, or at the very least do nothing
(b) educate people at the very least about programming their thermostats
(c) give the utility company further data as their 3rd party installers do an Energy "walk-through" of your home and provide other incentives to change to more energy efficient products (like fridge, lightning, HVAC, water heater, etc).

A few years ago they had the same program but with a different thermostat but had the ability to set your temperature from remote (as you would have to). They could change your settings during brown-out periods on hot stretches when everyone was blasting their A/C, but you could always over-ride it again. That is why my wife refused the "upgrade" at that time. Since then, I assume the utility saw it wasn't a good selling point and opted to offer these "smart thermostat" options instead which I assume they cannot control remotely, only we can once we register the devices. On the other hand, it could be that they set up the account for us or have an administrator back-door option available tied to the serial number of the device, or have the ability to gather data on the devices and correlate it to your utility bill. However, I doubt that Nest, Ecobee and Honeywell would do this... although for their large government/corporate customers (like our electric utility) they may have provide data on all of the devices belonging to the "incentive" to them or give them back-door access.

[labjr]

This is the smartest one I've found that works for me.

[edy]

UPDATE:

They came and installed the Ecobee 3 Lite. I did end up buying a "cheap" thermostat as I know they were going to confiscate the one already in my house (although not "so" cheap, it was brand new!). I should have scoured more garbage bins for old discarded thermostats or got one off eBay but I didn't think I would have the time.    My stupidity.... the cheap new one I bought so they would confiscate it cost me $30, so that they could install an Ecobee 3 Lite worth about $220 here in Canada, and this way I kept my original $100 thermostat.   So in my mind I paid $30 for an Ecobee, and I kept my old one in case the wife wants to kill me and I have to quickly switch it back. 

Anyways, it turns out they installed the "PEK" module (Power Extender Kit) since I only had the 4 wire cable in my wall. They also used a huge round wide wall-plate behind the Ecobee which hides the previous hole and any traces of the old thermostat. I'm still getting the hang of using it, I have NOT programmed it yet either.

One question I have which the installer said NOT to ever do....  SET IT TO AUTO and set a RANGE of high/low. Why?

He said to either keep it in heat mode, or cool mode and switch accordingly, but never auto. Let's say I like my temperature between 20 and 23. So I figure in the winter when it is cold outside, even if in AUTO the natural tendency will be for the house to cool down... so as soon as it dips below 20, the heat turns on and bumps it back up above 20. I doubt it will ever reach 23, so the air conditioner will never activate. Same goes for summer... the natural tendency may be for the place to heat up and always be over 23, so the air-conditioning will kick in. Again, I doubt it will go below 20. So why not auto? That helps during the spring/autumn when days are cold in the night and hot in the day, with wild swings. Wouldn't it be better to have it on auto so we don't constantly play with the thermostat figuring out what to do all the time?

[james_s]

You should have just removed the old thermostat entirely and put it away. "Oh that broke years ago so we've just been touching those two wires together when we need heat!"

[Red Squirrel]

I'd be curious to see some actual data on the energy consumption between one of these fancy cloud enabled thermostats and a plain old fashioned programmable thermostat. I mean there's no magic, it still takes the same amount of energy to heat the house to the same temperature. As much as I love technology, I'm not a fan of technology just for the sake of technology.

I think the idea is that you can program it to heat the house less when you're not home, or sleeping and have it heat when you are home.  I have mine set to let the temp drop between 11 and 13 degrees if I'm at work or sleeping, but it will start the furnace a few hours ahead so when I get  home or wake up it's warmer.  When I'm on night shifts my time spent at home and conscious is only a few hours so I only really need a bit of heat  for when I have to get up. 

With a non programmable you'd be more likely to set it it to one temp and not touch it as much so it's constantly trying to keep the house at a comfortable temp.   Part of it is also convenience of being able to set temp from anywhere.

[james_s]

I'd be curious to see some actual data on the energy consumption between one of these fancy cloud enabled thermostats and a plain old fashioned programmable thermostat. I mean there's no magic, it still takes the same amount of energy to heat the house to the same temperature. As much as I love technology, I'm not a fan of technology just for the sake of technology.

I think the idea is that you can program it to heat the house less when you're not home, or sleeping and have it heat when you are home.  I have mine set to let the temp drop between 11 and 13 degrees if I'm at work or sleeping, but it will start the furnace a few hours ahead so when I get  home or wake up it's warmer.  When I'm on night shifts my time spent at home and conscious is only a few hours so I only really need a bit of heat  for when I have to get up. 

With a non programmable you'd be more likely to set it it to one temp and not touch it as much so it's constantly trying to keep the house at a comfortable temp.   Part of it is also convenience of being able to set temp from anywhere.

I was comparing against conventional programmable thermostats which are nothing new, my parents got an early one more than 30 years ago and I've always had one in my place. As far as I know they're pretty much standard now, it's very rare that I see a completely manual thermostat anywhere. Doesn't rely on any cloud services or web connectivity, you just set it up, program the settings and it goes.

[Red Squirrel]

I'd be curious to see some actual data on the energy consumption between one of these fancy cloud enabled thermostats and a plain old fashioned programmable thermostat. I mean there's no magic, it still takes the same amount of energy to heat the house to the same temperature. As much as I love technology, I'm not a fan of technology just for the sake of technology.

I think the idea is that you can program it to heat the house less when you're not home, or sleeping and have it heat when you are home.  I have mine set to let the temp drop between 11 and 13 degrees if I'm at work or sleeping, but it will start the furnace a few hours ahead so when I get  home or wake up it's warmer.  When I'm on night shifts my time spent at home and conscious is only a few hours so I only really need a bit of heat  for when I have to get up. 

With a non programmable you'd be more likely to set it it to one temp and not touch it as much so it's constantly trying to keep the house at a comfortable temp.   Part of it is also convenience of being able to set temp from anywhere.

I was comparing against conventional programmable thermostats which are nothing new, my parents got an early one more than 30 years ago and I've always had one in my place. As far as I know they're pretty much standard now, it's very rare that I see a completely manual thermostat anywhere. Doesn't rely on any cloud services or web connectivity, you just set it up, program the settings and it goes.

Oh yeah, I find the conventional ones are ok, but if you work shift work then you can't really make it work that well.  But yeah if you have a standard M-F job you probably don't need anything better than a standard programmable one.

[labjr]

I've set up programmable thermostats for people. Most people just turn them up and down manually. IMO, too many simple tasks are being replaced with  unnecessary technology. It becomes overwhelming when everything has to be controlled by an app. I want my flip phone back. 

[rbm]

Maybe I'm a dissenting voice but I have an original Nest from 8 years ago and I really like it.  I rarely interact with it like programming it, but I use the networking capabilities.  For example, say we're going away for a vacation in the winter for a couple days, I'll adjust the setpoint to minimum. Then before starting the drive back home when it's time to come back, I'll login and return the setpoint to normal.  By the time we're home, the house is comfortable.  Or another use case is the wife complains at bedtime that the house is too "this" or "that", so without getting out of bed, I can readjust the thermostat.  Lazy yes, but convenient.

[james_s]

Oh I'm sure they have advantages in the way of convenience, I'm just skeptical of any real savings in terms of energy consumption vs an ordinary standalone programmable thermostat. Obviously user behavior is important, I suspect someone in the habit of putting their thermostat in hold mode and manually adjusting it up and down is likely to continue doing the same thing with a fancy web connected one. I also shudder to think what someone like my mom would do, she's very intelligent but doesn't seem to "get" technology. I've struggled for years to teach her very basic troubleshooting for her computer, like check if the printer is plugged in, check that WiFi is enabled, maybe reboot it since it's been up for 6 months with a dozen browser windows and 30 copies of Solitaire running since she often minimizes programs and then just launches a new copy rather than finding where they went. I've had almost zero luck, she still finds ways to just work around whatever malfunction is there for weeks before calling me when it becomes an emergency because a newsletter is due the next day. If the app stopped talking to the thermostat she'd probably bundle up or build a fire in the wood stove instead of trying to make it work.