EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: FenderBender on November 26, 2012, 02:37:56 am
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With Cyber Monday tomorrow, I'm hoping I can snag a new monitor for my PC...or atleast give myself an excuse to buy one.
Right now I have a cheap 19* Acer. Works alright but I'm starting to get some funky burnt out sections and I'm hoping to get one that will last me a while.
Who is making the best quality monitors these days? (Internal and external construction). I was considering a Dell UltraSharp or an NEC MultiSync.
Any preferences?
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Planar.
Some of their models come with up to 10 year warranty. They are intended for usage in kiosks , airport terminals , hospitals, any location where they are on 24/7 and where failure is an architectural nightmare..
imagine the arrival monitor cluster ( those arrival panels made from 6 or 9 monitors stacked in an array) being made from 9 different models because every 3 months one died and the original model was obsolete. That doesnt happen. Those screens are made by Planar.
What sets them apart ?
1) They use industrial grade lcd panels
2) they have 4 or 8 backlight tubes as opposed to 1 or 2 ... and they run them at 12% power so they last forever....
3) they have oversized powersupplies for the backlights that stay cold
4) they don't cut corners with crap capacitors and other 'commercial parts' they use industrial grade ( commercial is 20 to 80 degree c , industrial is -10 to +125 degree c ) parts.
5) the entire monitor (if larger than 27 inch) sits in a steel housing that acts as heatsink. no plastic crap.
They are built like a tank.
Their 'consumer computer monitors have 3 year no-hassle warranty. If it fails they ship you a new one and you have 2 days after receiving the replacement to ship the broken one back. i believe they pay shipping both ways.
THey got a 27 inch for 289 ...
http://www.planaronline.com/ (http://www.planaronline.com/)
Newegg carries them. So do big retailers ( not consumer computer retailers ) like CDW and ingram Micro.
Other good monitors : The business line from HP ( not the consumer crap ... ) For exampple a LA2405WG is an extremely good monitor. 1920x1200 ( jep not 1080 but 1200 ) , 24 inch. DVI , Displayport and analog and USB ( has a built in USB hub with 2 ports on the side. ) Why no HDMI ? because HDMI is nothing else than DVI in a different connector style.
You will not find Planar machines in costco , bestbuy or the shop around the corner. They don't do consumer crap.
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I notice they fail to specify panel type on the lower end models, among other things. They also appear to use CCFLs mostly for the lower end models, too.
I'm sure the two grand professional ones are nice, let's see inside the cheap ones.
I can vouch for the Dell U2412M. It's a lovely display. I also still use a five year old HP LP2065 (they obviously don't make that model now, but they may have comparable models), minimal backlight fade and little to no yellowing so far.
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I love my Dell U2410 and 2707WFP, and similarly liked the 2007WFP I used before I upgraded.
For me, Dell monitors are a class above.
The only thing I don't like about my U2410 is that it is too easy to hit the power button by accident. Everything else about it, build quality and display quality, is golden. The 1920x1200 screen resolution is excellent.
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they get good reviews on newegg .. the low cost ones are for 'healthcare' and otrher demanding apps. the 3 year warranty alone is killer. if it dies you get a new one. Good luck finding a zwamswung that does that.
I have a Planar in my garage ... 42 inch beast with built in multitouch touchscreen. Scored it surplus from an airport construction.... Apparently there was a minimum run required to get them in that case style and there were a bunch leftover ... paid 400$ for it... the damn thing weighs 95 pounds ...
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I love my Dell U2410 and 2707WFP, and similarly liked the 2007WFP I used before I upgraded.
For me, Dell monitors are a class above.
guts are made by acer
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Why no HDMI ? because HDMI is nothing else than DVI in a different connector style.
Lack of HDMI sucks if you want to use your monitor on a multimedia machine. Recent computers won't output HD video over DVI thanks to our US government overlords.
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they get good reviews on newegg .. the low cost ones are for 'healthcare' and otrher demanding apps. the 3 year warranty alone is killer. if it dies you get a new one. Good luck finding a zwamswung that does that.
You get 3 years on HP business displays. You get 3 years on Dell Ultrasharp displays. Both spec higher than most of those Planar displays. Since when are Newegg reviews relevant?
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Why no HDMI ? because HDMI is nothing else than DVI in a different connector style.
Lack of HDMI sucks if you want to use your monitor on a multimedia machine. Recent computers won't output HD video over DVI thanks to our US government overlords.
It's HDCP you need, not HDMI. HDCP works on DVI just as well as HDMI (they're essentially, but not quite, the same. DVI is far superior though, HDMI connector is horrific).
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guts are made by acer
Which Acer model is equivalent to the Dell U2410?
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Planar.
Some of their models come with up to 10 year warranty. They are intended for usage in kiosks , airport terminals , hospitals, any location where they are on 24/7 and where failure is an architectural nightmare..
imagine the arrival monitor cluster ( those arrival panels made from 6 or 9 monitors stacked in an array) being made from 9 different models because every 3 months one died and the original model was obsolete. That doesnt happen. Those screens are made by Planar.
What sets them apart ?
1) They use industrial grade lcd panels
2) they have 4 or 8 backlight tubes as opposed to 1 or 2 ... and they run them at 12% power so they last forever....
3) they have oversized powersupplies for the backlights that stay cold
4) they don't cut corners with crap capacitors and other 'commercial parts' they use industrial grade ( commercial is 20 to 80 degree c , industrial is -10 to +125 degree c ) parts.
5) the entire monitor (if larger than 27 inch) sits in a steel housing that acts as heatsink. no plastic crap.
They are built like a tank.
Their 'consumer computer monitors have 3 year no-hassle warranty. If it fails they ship you a new one and you have 2 days after receiving the replacement to ship the broken one back. i believe they pay shipping both ways.
THey got a 27 inch for 289 ...
http://www.planaronline.com/ (http://www.planaronline.com/)
Newegg carries them. So do big retailers ( not consumer computer retailers ) like CDW and ingram Micro.
Other good monitors : The business line from HP ( not the consumer crap ... ) For exampple a LA2405WG is an extremely good monitor. 1920x1200 ( jep not 1080 but 1200 ) , 24 inch. DVI , Displayport and analog and USB ( has a built in USB hub with 2 ports on the side. ) Why no HDMI ? because HDMI is nothing else than DVI in a different connector style.
You will not find Planar machines in costco , bestbuy or the shop around the corner. They don't do consumer crap.
Alright I'll give them a look thanks.
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I'm a big fan of triple monitors - or at least two. I run three 19" 4:3 format Dell monitors that you can pick up on ebay for about $100.
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None of the monitors I have were purchased new. I get non working ones for free or very low cost from the local ads. Some of them have obvious bad caps and are easy fixes. My favourite one is the Samsung 226BW.
In addition, all my computers at home including two quad cores were free. Most were easy fixes as they had bad caps in the power supply.
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Is EIZO still around? I loved their CRT's and love the two second hand LCD's that I have, too.
I've recently had trouble with two LG LCD's - Crapxon/Samwha caps dying as usual. The EIZO's haven't had this problem so far.
Also the case design and feel is just a notch above the usual cheap stuff.
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whatever you do, if you get a monitor bigger than 24", make sure its resolution is higher than 1920x1080...
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With monitors, it is seeming that CCFL is more reliable than LED. Due to the christmas-light effect. Lots of LED monitors with one light failing diode. With CCFLs, there are only a few of them and they are rated for about the same lifespan as an LED (40,000 - 60,000 hours.) CCFL monitors shut down when one bulb fails due to the self-protection (or end of warranty void mode....)
I haven't done the maths but if you have:
- two or four CCFLs rated 40,000 hours
- fifty LEDs rated 60,000 hours
Which will last longer (assuming one failure brings the whole monitor down?) I think the CCFLs will.
Me, personally, I don't buy stuff new... there are only a few good monitor makers left and I'm not sure if I trust them... I buy it faulty on eBay or gumtree, replace a few caps and enjoy it.
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http://www.eizo.com/global/ (http://www.eizo.com/global/)
yep they still around but on the pricy side too, but again its not meant for corner shops and kids with 50 bucks per year
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Again, i know i'll probably be slammed for this but you get what you pay for, cheap monitors use CCFLs that die much faster than the christmas lights effect LEDs (which they poorly design in the same way, such as millions of LEDs in a row)
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I've stopped buying new computer stuff years ago, too. All I need I can get for free or very cheap these days. I often take the "trash" off other people and repair it or I go have a look on Ebay.
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Eizo and NEC are constantly reviewing very well on this monitor review site:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html (http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html)
Check the site, the reviews are pretty detailed, with lots of pages and information.
Yeah, Eizo will be pretty expensive but they use only quality parts like Nichicon and Rubycon, IPS panels and all that. It seems lately they're more oriented into medical displays and graphics professionals displays.
On budget, Samsung is OK as long as you're capable of buying 10-20$ worth of capacitors and replacing the crap ones installed which are bound to fail in a couple of years if the monitor is used lots of hours each day..
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I've got two BenQ TFTs (22" and 24") for several years now and still being happy with them. Belinea TFTs are running great too. And my very first TFT, a 18" LG from 2001, is also still working :-)
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I got a Dell U2410 last year and its fantastic. Nice aspect ratio (16:10), nice colour, good quality IPS display, and lots of inputs.
I have my PC on DVI-1, my Amiga 500+ on the VGA port (yes, this monitor supports the Amiga's 15kHz frequency), my Digital TV receiver on the composite port (It doubles up as a TV), and my Raspberry Pi on the HDMI port.
:D
It was pretty expensive when I got it (about £430), but was well worth it. I've not looked inside, but I expect it will be pretty good quality.
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It was pretty expensive when I got it (about £430), but was well worth it. I've not looked inside, but I expect it will be pretty good quality.
Expecting quality on dell is like expecting Apple stuff to be made in the U.S.A.
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guts are made by acer
Which Acer model is equivalent to the Dell U2410?
Custom built for dell. Acer is the oem.
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guts are made by acer
Which Acer model is equivalent to the Dell U2410?
Custom built for dell. Acer is the oem.
And that's a problem why?
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Hmm, for one, I have seen plenty of dead Acer monitors on badcaps, though in general they are fairly well built, they usually fail due to bad capacitors.
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Hmm, for one, I have seen plenty of dead Acer monitors on badcaps, though in general they are fairly well built, they usually fail due to bad capacitors.
Doesn't mean the Dell ones supposedly made by Acer (proof, please) are built with the same parts.
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A bottom line is shouldn't go buy 'brand' when buying monitors because the models and availability differ from country to country. Its also better to ask this question in a video or computer forum as the issue with monitors isn't the electronics, but the esthetic qualities.
You should go by its key features and country sold:
1. color and image accuracy
2. quality construction
3. Power consumption
IPS types are top of the line in LCD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPS_panel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPS_panel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED-backlit_LCD_display#Comparison_with_CCFL_backlit_displays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED-backlit_LCD_display#Comparison_with_CCFL_backlit_displays)
Read on how to choose, then take the palette available to you in your location to find the best available:
http://www.displaymate.com/advanced.html (http://www.displaymate.com/advanced.html)
Note, on reference monitors and very high quality, you cannot resolve the color grades unless you are in a near black room, devoid of ambient light. So, if you do not operate in those conditions, such monitors are overkill. The difference in color resolution can vary by very small increments, but the cost will be 10x more.
http://computers.toptenreviews.com/monitors/ (http://computers.toptenreviews.com/monitors/)
HDMI is the defacto standard connectivity for monitors. True HDMI is a variant of DVI which is obsolete, but now that is consumerized, HDMI is far cheaper, more prolific and easier to obtain than DVI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI#DVI_and_HDMI_compatibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI#DVI_and_HDMI_compatibility)
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Just had a 22" LCD TV to repair. One CCFL failed on the top of the screen causing a fast flash and nothing further (so called "2 seconds to black"). Disabled protection and it works fine, just a little dimmer on the top. I am curious why all these LCDs use protection which shuts off when there's an open bulb. I can't see what could go wrong. The inverter doesn't catch fire and the output stays at 700Vrms, just driving no load. Shorted, I can understand, it might damage it. But it's still usable. I wonder how many TVs like this get thrown out. I've repaired at least three TVs with 2 secs to black (one 26", two 37"), it's almost always the inverter transformers... never had an actual bulb go.
Pics of U2410F:
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17767&highlight=u2410 (http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17767&highlight=u2410)
No obvious "Acer" logo, so would have to compare with an Acer of similar generation (LED, 24", 1080p) to be sure. But it is full of Elite caps, which is a no-no. I've pulled quite a few bad Elite, so I don't trust them...
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Another vote for NEC here. I have two of their color-critical wide gamut screens and they are excellent and come with 4 year warranties.
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... it's almost always the inverter transformers... never had an actual bulb go.
Do you check the continuity of transformer windings? How do you check them, in circuit?
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... it's almost always the inverter transformers... never had an actual bulb go.
Do you check the continuity of transformer windings? How do you check them, in circuit?
Usually it's the secondary winding which goes high in resistance. You check them in circuit.
They measure from 500 ohm to 5k ohm, depending on the design. You check them all, and find that one measures 20k ohm, so you replace it. Then TV works fine. :)
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... it's almost always the inverter transformers... never had an actual bulb go.
Do you check the continuity of transformer windings? How do you check them, in circuit?
Usually it's the secondary winding which goes high in resistance. You check them in circuit.
They measure from 500 ohm to 5k ohm, depending on the design. You check them all, and find that one measures 20k ohm, so you replace it. Then TV works fine. :)
Ok, thanks. Actually I chose the easy solution and replaced the ccfl's by LEDs on one of the monitors I had, the ccfl's had all darkened extremities.
As for the second monitor I broke the LCD screen when reassembling it... It's gone forever |O
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HDMI is the defacto standard connectivity for monitors. True HDMI is a variant of DVI which is obsolete, but now that is consumerized, HDMI is far cheaper, more prolific and easier to obtain than DVI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI#DVI_and_HDMI_compatibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI#DVI_and_HDMI_compatibility)
That's funny, because every GPU and monitor still comes with the not so obsolete DVI.
HDMI is bollocks, it has no advantages over DVI for a PC. The connector is crap and nobody has ever bothered supplying dual link connectors or cables.
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The only features HDMI added:-
a) encryption (boo, hiss, and easily beaten)
b) audio (but DVI has support now indirectly -- many monitors with speakers will decode DVI audio)
c) mini connectors for camcorders
I don't mind the connector but I've trodden on it several times and broke it... DVI is much more rugged.
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The only features HDMI added:-
a) encryption (boo, hiss, and easily beaten)
You can use the DVI connector for that.
b) audio (but DVI has support now indirectly -- many monitors with speakers will decode DVI audio)
You can use the DVI connector for that, too.
c) mini connectors for camcorders
Adapter lead.
There's no electrical difference between HDMI and DVI except the lack of real-world dual-link support for HDMI. The HDMI connector is flimsy and easily damaged by the mere weight of the cable (those familiar with SCART will be quite familiar with this problem from years gone by).
I will never willingly choose an HDMI connector over DVI. It can stay on TVs, I want a real connector everywhere else. There are high density connectors and breakout cables if you want to stuff more than two ports on one card.
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as for connectors i like the displayport snatch in and locked in place type connectors but it still doesnt beat the wide rugged dvi with 2 thumb screws
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Yeah, that was my point. DVI basically supports everything HDMI does, just in a different form factor. Didn't you read my post? Or are you just trying to disagree? :D
And I don't want a DVI port on a camcorder ;)
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Yeah, that was my point. DVI basically supports everything HDMI does, just in a different form factor. Didn't you read my post? Or are you just trying to disagree? :D
I was clarifying for the hard-of-thinking who still think HDMI has advantages of any sort.
as for connectors i like the displayport snatch in and locked in place type connectors but it still doesnt beat the wide rugged dvi with 2 thumb screws
Shame DP sucks and was apparently written by idiots.
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with its high bandwith would be good for high res high frame rate stuffs, but the whole thing is a mess, no matter how many card has 2+ connectors the monitors which has DP only a small amount of the market say dell mid to high end, apple..... and damn expensive graphics monitors
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In many ways, HDMI is a better cable for connections which are made many times, such as AV devices -- it readily unplugs, as it has no screw mounts, and is easy to orientate for when you're fiddling behind the 50" plasma that you can't move because it weighs a ton. It also allows manufacturers to make thinner TVs -- DVI is a pretty fat connector and newer super slim TVs are now dropping VGA ports because of this. But it is pretty flimsy, and tends to break, perhaps this is a penalty of its other features or is built in obsolescence.
I don't think you need dual-link support over HDMI anyway if you can apparently send dual 1080p (for 3D video) over them, at 60 Hz. There should be no reason you can't send a high resolution like 2560x1600p at 60 Hz. If graphics cards and monitors don't support it... well, that's their problem, and you don't buy those products...
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In many ways, HDMI is a better cable for connections which are made many times, such as AV devices -- it readily unplugs, as it has no screw mounts, and is easy to orientate for when you're fiddling behind the 50" plasma that you can't move because it weighs a ton. It also allows manufacturers to make thinner TVs -- DVI is a pretty fat connector and newer super slim TVs are now dropping VGA ports because of this. But it is pretty flimsy, and tends to break, perhaps this is a penalty of its other features or is built in obsolescence.
I don't think you need dual-link support over HDMI anyway if you can apparently send dual 1080p (for 3D video) over them, at 60 Hz.
And HDMI can happily stay on the cheap consumer goods.
I spend more on my GPU than most TVs cost. I do not expect it to break because I'm forced to use such a stupid connector. Equally I don't expect my equipment not to power on because the DisplayPort standard was passed with a gigantic flaw which requires two different types of cable which are externally identical.
DVI had better be here to stay.
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I would imagine that DVI will slowly be replaced with HDMI. It is cheaper to use just one connector on a range of products, and then manufacturers can market monitors with HDMI support, simply by replacing the DVI port with a HDMI one.
In other words, buy DVI for now, but don't expect it to last when the only thing holding it back appears to be a flimsy connector. I've broken a few by stepping on them as I said... but otherwise, they seem fine.
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I can get 3x Dell 1704FPs for about $200. That might be a decent idea.
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17"? Are you mad?
Start at 20".
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17"? Are you mad?
Start at 20".
That is a 4:3 panel, so it is taller than you think.
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17"? Are you mad?
Start at 20".
That is a 4:3 panel, so it is taller than you think.
Actually, it's a 5:4. I'm well aware of how 'big' it is. Think bigger.
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That's what I mean 5:4. Well I don't know. Just throwing that out there.
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A 19" 5:4 monitor has greater vertical height than a 24" 16:9.
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Asus is pretty good as far as reliability goes. As for as features, LG has truly backlit monitors with local dimming - most monitors are actually edge lit.
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Never come across Planar, because of that big vote for NEC. Very good quality, long lasting and good picture, epecially better models.
Stay away from Acer.
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There is a problem with 5:4 monitors, they're much harder to find with IPS panels, and if you're using multiple of them, you'll really want IPS for the viewing angle, because, well, TN sucks.
In many ways, HDMI is a better cable for connections which are made many times, such as AV devices -- it readily unplugs, as it has no screw mounts, and is easy to orientate for when you're fiddling behind the 50" plasma that you can't move because it weighs a ton. It also allows manufacturers to make thinner TVs -- DVI is a pretty fat connector and newer super slim TVs are now dropping VGA ports because of this. But it is pretty flimsy, and tends to break, perhaps this is a penalty of its other features or is built in obsolescence.
I don't think you need dual-link support over HDMI anyway if you can apparently send dual 1080p (for 3D video) over them, at 60 Hz. There should be no reason you can't send a high resolution like 2560x1600p at 60 Hz. If graphics cards and monitors don't support it... well, that's their problem, and you don't buy those products...
Even though HDMI supports very high resolutions, the DVI -> HDMI pass through that modern video cards do are single link DVI pass through, so you're limited to single link DVI resolutions for computer use that isn't their problem, that's yours.
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Hello,
Had Dells for years (2407W then U2410), they are great for professionnal use when you need exact colorimetry.
Now I have a dual screen Asus VG278H, and the 120Hz really is another world, not as accurate (color wise) as the DELL, but so smooth, so fast, really love it.
Barely used the 3D vision, it's nice but not bought it for that feature.
Thomas.
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Asus stuff -- meh. Don't use much myself, but have heard of lots of bad cap issues on their motherboards. Their LCDs are probably rebadged models.
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I bought a bunch of korean 27" 2560x1440 monitors, LG panels, quite good for their money.
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I bought a bunch of korean 27" 2560x1440 monitors, LG panels, quite good for their money.
Prepare to change caps soon.
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Asus stuff -- meh. Don't use much myself, but have heard of lots of bad cap issues on their motherboards. Their LCDs are probably rebadged models.
hell knows who makes their monitors but thats sure i regret buying this vh242 asus, i cant set the contrast and the backlight to the right level its too dark or my eyes hurts after 1 hour of usage etc and the colors jesus even the lowend display in my g73 laptop has better colors it isnt the hannstar full hd panel which supposed to be in it instead a cheaper hd display good good but i dont know why they make 5 different models to the europian market with cheaper and cheaper shits packed in while the prices goes to the roof... my old viewsonic vx724 has better colors then both of these and i could set the brightness and the contrast to the perfect level within a minute. and thats a 8 years old monitor atleast, viewing angle response time is perfect btw it wasnt cheap too was twice as expensive as this asus back then.
for their motherboards the higher end ones which i owned a few never failed on me expect a corrupted bios on 1 of them for the cheapest of their lineup maybe somehow you have to make profit but everyone deserves who buy a cheap stuff from any of the manufacturers
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To monitor or not to monitor,
Low to medium ~ higher end consumer model computer monitors & TVs
Are,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
All good when they work properly.
When they brake and malfunction,, They ALL Suck.
FWIW
PS. many monitors & TVs are NOT manufactured by the Name on the Bezel ,,
or,
just because it says "Dell" or "HP" does not mean Dell or HP manufactured it.
Same thing with majority of laptops.
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I bought a bunch of korean 27" 2560x1440 monitors, LG panels, quite good for their money.
Prepare to change caps soon.
I have about 1500 hours on them and no issues thus far (12 hours a day for the past 4 months).
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I run three of these and love them.
Dell UltraSharp 2001FP
Display Type LCD display / TFT active matrix
Diagonal Size 20.1 in
Display interface VGA (HD-15) DVI
Max Resolution 1600 x 1200 / 60 Hz
Dot pitch 0.255 mm
Aspect ratio 4:3
Contrast ratio 400:1
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Eizo or NEC.
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Monitor brand doesn't matter too much. You should care first about the panel technology, and then the panel brand. The control board *could* go out, but it's pretty unlikely that it will be more of an issue that the panel itself.