Why are Western companies getting offline power supplies designed in China?

[ebastler]

Therefore, people will only vote for people whom they know, aka famous people

This guarantees only powerful elite citizens can have political power -- be it wealthy people, famous professors, religious leaders or famous actors, but you have to be famous, which implies being elite.

I can't put my finger on it, but there sems to be a flaw in your argument.
Which other country was it that fared so well by electing a wealthy TV celebrity as their president...?

[Kjelt]

Rethinking the original question I have another possible answer:

- consumers in the West have %wise less to spent than 30 yrs ago
- consumers in the West are accustomed to lowering prices for electronics over the years
- consumers in the West are accustomed to replacing their electronics each 2-4 years
- the result is that the electronics producers have to cut all BOM cost as much as possible and the NRE costs also when possible.

So you want to produce there where the labour and cost of producing electronics is the lowest which at the moment is China and surrounding countries.

Compare it to Ikea and the current generations.
My father had furniture from his great grandfather, his grandfather and some of his own.
I still have some stuff. New generations get a job a house and buy everything new, and again in 6-10 years because their taste has changed. So what happened to the skilled craftman furniture makers? They are al ost all gone since no one is going to spent thousands on a piece of furniture.

Or computers, only the people of this forum own computers >10 yrs old, let alone build one from scratch  .
 Most people buy a new computer every 3-4 yrs and sell or throw the old one out. So is there any western company making consumer computers anymore in the west?

Its called evolution, shifts of balances, we had our good decades in the previous century, the east are having theirs now, afrika will have theirs in two to three decades and so on. We just have to face it that our children and grand children will have it far worse then we have, not much to do about it or invent something everyone wants.

[Kjelt]

We don't have to grow our own 'brilliant' engineers, we buy them.  Any engineer with an advanced degree can apply for a visa and work permit.  Where they go from there is up to them.  EB-2 visa...

You are making a big thinking mistake here IMO.
1) for an engineer it is not only all about money:
A)it is also about being at the front of where new tech happens. New technologies are often an evolution of working with older technologies, if you don't build anything anymore you can also not think about an improvement on that since you don't know what you don't know.

B) it is also having a nice place to stay and a friendly country and community and people. Your country was a nice country before 911 but now it is ugly in many places IMO. If I read also on this forum that in the high tech dev places you can not get a house anymore and the "brilliant" people live in trailers and motels than I can tell you that is not going to last. Looking at your countries debt it is a rollercoaster to the bottom.

2)  how about your other not so brilliant members of the population. They need jobs and meaningfull fullfillment of their lives also or what do you think is going to happen? 

[ocset]

Don't be lazy, go promote and campaign to Brit's youngsters to attend the Engineering class, instead of wasting your time here.

You cannot really promote that because there is little left of the UK electronics industry for them to go into.....thats why it needs building up a bit first.

There are  some “rocket science” jobs in places like the Cambridge Science Park in UK, but you cant go and talk to a bunch of 15 year olds and tell then to choose to study for a job in that arena…….they’d be too scared that they may fail and end up with no job at all. Good old regular electronics  jobs are what’s needed to get the masses back into electronics…then from that big number, you get your 2% of “brilliant” ones.

We don't have to grow our own 'brilliant' engineers, we buy them.  Any engineer with an advanced degree can apply for a visa and work permit.  Where they go from there is up to them.  EB-2 visa...

…that’s what we in UK used to say about 30 years ago….and look what’s happened to us since…we’ve collapsed, we’re on the way to the third world…..We’ve massively lost our industry…we’ve gone from the worlds biggest exporter of cars (those cars being UK designed/built), to practically not making any cars at all.
https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdecline

So you want to produce there where the labour and cost of producing electronics is the lowest which at the moment is China and surrounding countries.

I would accept that in the first place, to stop  the  government funding levels getting too high, much manufacture would have to be done in the Far East....but it should be illegal for power supply design work to be out-sourced out of the country.

if you don't build anything anymore you can also not think about an improvement on that since you don't know what you don't know.

Thanks, My sentiments exactly...we must look to bring back manufacture in bigger amounts....even if in the first place, it has to be government funded.

[rstofer]

rstofer, governments by and large are not allowed to engage in business any more.

WTO rules are merely 'suggestions' and are subject to change at a moment's notice.  In fact, there is no compelling reason to even belong to the WTO.  In particular, the US, as the world's largest economy, can pretty much do anything it wants.  And Trump is doing it!  It's not popular in some countries but that's the way it goes.

Governments definitely participate in business - think about China or Taiwan.  Probably most of the EU.  And in the US, the .gov directs businesses by way of taxation.  How about

And then there are the never ending lawsuits between Boeing and Airbus over .gov subsidies.  Both receive subsidies but in different forms.  Some forms are legal, some are not.  And then there is China (COMAC) which is definitely government subsidized.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-41152544

The US wants battery cars but they cost too much to produce because there is no economy of scale.  So, what to do?  Oh!  I know!  Let's have state and federal tax advantages for those people who buy the cars to get the price down to where there will become a market.

The .gov wants solar energy at a residential level.  How to get people to buy very expensive systems?  Oh!  I know!  Let's have state and federal tax advantages for those people who buy solar systems to get the price down to where there will become a market.

There's a theme here!  The .gov doesn't build battery cars or, that is true.  But it influences the cost of battery cars to make them on par with gasoline cars.  And it's the same story in a lot of products/markets.

It's hard to create a new market when there is no economy of scale.  Governments step in with some form of  financial reward.

[ocset]

When the Chinese (or other Far Eastern country with massive power supply design/manufacture industry) need to build a power supply for a low-volume application, they will do it much better than the West…simply because they have a bigger power  supply industry, and loads of power supply engineers who conveniently “cut their teeth”  on their country’s mass market power supply industry. The West doesn’t have   big power supply   industrys. For low volumes, its not financially viable for the west  to get the Chinese (or another country)  to do it.
Also, when the Chinese need a power supply for their  Military aircraft (something that you cant ask another country to do for you)…the Chinese will be able to do this much better than in the west…for the same reason as above. (the Chinese have a bigger amount of Power Supply engineers, and  have overall, more expertise in power supply design than the west...because they do it much more than the west)
Similarly when a startup in the west  needs a  “first-go” power supply for a new product under development , they will not be able to do this as well as the Chinese…..typically, when a new  product under development  is evolving, the power supply spec is constantly changing , and you just can’t get another country to do it for you….you need a local person to come “ in-house”  and work on the PSU with you…..the Chinese, for the same reason as given above, will be much better able to do a good job of   something like this than the west.
And as I discussed before, countries that have big power supply design/manufacture industries are easier able to get lots of youngsters to come into electronics, because those youngsters can see a load of attainable jobs that are available to them in electronics. In the west, all the youngsters can see today is a few “rocket science”  electronics jobs…jobs which they may not be able to get even if they qualify in electronics.
Another point, is that all power supplies need EMC filters…..and this is to a large extent similar to microwave engineering……….in any given power supply development project, the Chinese would beat the West hands down, because they have more people who know the tricks of passing EMC,  whilst using the smallest size EMC filter.
I think the West needs to bring bulk  power supply design/manufacture  industry back home.  –At least, all the design part  needs to come back…maybe some of the manufacture can stay overseas…but definitely not all.

[rstofer]

When the Chinese (or other Far Eastern country with massive power supply design/manufacture industry) need to build a power supply for a low-volume application, they will do it much better than the West…simply because they have a bigger power  supply industry, and loads of power supply engineers who conveniently “cut their teeth”  on their country’s mass market power supply industry. The West doesn’t have   big power supply   industrys. For low volumes, its not financially viable for the west  to get the Chinese (or another country)  to do it.
Also, when the Chinese need a power supply for their  Military aircraft (something that you cant ask another country to do for you)…the Chinese will be able to do this much better than in the west…for the same reason as above. (the Chinese have a bigger amount of Power Supply engineers, and  have overall, more expertise in power supply design than the west...because they do it much more than the west)
Similarly when a startup in the west  needs a  “first-go” power supply for a new product under development , they will not be able to do this as well as the Chinese…..typically, when a new  product under development  is evolving, the power supply spec is constantly changing , and you just can’t get another country to do it for you….you need a local person to come “ in-house”  and work on the PSU with you…..the Chinese, for the same reason as given above, will be much better able to do a good job of   something like this than the west.
And as I discussed before, countries that have big power supply design/manufacture industries are easier able to get lots of youngsters to come into electronics, because those youngsters can see a load of attainable jobs that are available to them in electronics. In the west, all the youngsters can see is a few “rocket science” jobs…jobs which they may not be able to get even if they qualify in electronics.
Another point, is that all power supplies need EMC filters…..and this is to a large extent similar to microwave engfineering……….in any given power supply development project, the Chinese would beat the West hands down, because they have more people who know the tricks of passing EMC,  whilst using the smallest size EMC filter.
I think the West needs to bring bulk  power supply design/manufacture  industry back home.  –At least, all the design part  needs to come back…maybe some of the manufacture can stay overseas…but definitely not all.

Why would something as insignificant as  power supply design encourage anyone to study electronics?  Everything is known, there's nothing new and it's down to grunt work.  Boring!  Pick standards from Column A, parts from Column B and enclosures from Column C.  Munge them together and, voila', a power supply is born!  At most, it is worth a single semester class of 3 units.  Or maybe just a 1 unit seminar...  As a subject, it's pretty meaningless.

In fact, I can't see why anyone would study electronic engineering anyway.  There are a few glamor jobs (Intel CPU design) but the rest of it is just work.  Same thing, different day.  Look around!  What is currently going on in electronic design that is the least bit interesting?  Cell phones?  Cable TV?  Boring!  No new magic, just incremental upgrades of stuff we have had for a decade or more.

Given that ARM and Intel own the CPU market (yes there are other bit players), I'm not sure why anyone would study computer architecture.  It is well known and well understood - nothing new is coming down the pipeline (pun intended).  I wonder if we haven't chased that as far down a rathole as we can go.  Even then, most of the 'advances' in uCs are things that were done on mainframes 40 years ago.  All that has happened is a reduction in the size of logic gates.  Arguably, the CDC 6600 was a RISC processor and it was built in '64.  It isn't truly RISC but it is darn close!

Sure, I studied EE but I never worked at it.  There are a couple of reasons but boredom was near the top of the list.  It was, and still is, sufficient to know how it works without having to spend a career doing it.  The last thing I would want to be is the resident power supply guy!  The heyday of EE was in the mid to late '70s when all the magic was being created.

Software!  That's where the money is and that's where innovation will come from.  We have all the uCs and CPUs we will ever need.  What we need is more high end code wienies to come up with AI and computer vision software.  We already have vastly parallel computers and high speed GPU  processors, what we need is new code.

[coppice]

Why would something as insignificant as  power supply design encourage anyone to study electronics?  Everything is known, there's nothing new and it's down to grunt work.  Boring!

You might not have noticed, but the ability to design first class power supplies is one of the best paid roles in electronics. Do you think they are being paid a lot to tolerate the boredom?

[rstofer]

Why would something as insignificant as  power supply design encourage anyone to study electronics?  Everything is known, there's nothing new and it's down to grunt work.  Boring!

You might not have noticed, but the ability to design first class power supplies is one of the best paid roles in electronics. Do you think they are being paid a lot to tolerate the boredom?

We're all being paid a lot to tolerate boredom, regardless of the field.

I seriously doubt that the guy who designs wall warts is especially well paid.  Now, back when we used 400 Hz (input) power supplies for mainframe power, it was probably interesting.  I remember very well installing 75 kVA frequency changers to create that 400 Hz for CDC and IBM mainframes.

Are there intricate power supplies?  Sure!  But that's not the grunt level stuff we're talking about here.  At least that's not what I am thinking about when the topic is lots of commercial supplies.  I rather expect some military power supplies would be interesting just for the requirements.  The next great +5 VDC supply?  Not so much!  Bench power supplies might be interesting - once!  Even there, the customer is more interested in the GUI than in the heatsink (as long as it is adequate).  Software (firmware) sells the power supply!

Power supplies for LEDs?  It's been done!  Power supplies for streetlights - done!  Wall warts?  They're all over the place.  I can't imagine getting out of bed in the morning knowing all I had to look forward to was yet another power supply.  I suspect that's why we don't make them.  They're boring and available as a commodity.

The market exists, government involvement is not needed.  They are commodity items and can be made anywhere.  Design engineers are plentiful (they invented the controller chips) and assembly houses are all over the world.  Just not interesting (to me!).

Simple test:  Consider your favorite project(s) and write down a) what was exciting and b) what you learned.  If it isn't fun and it isn't educational, it's just grunt work.  I never found engineering (of any kind) to be especially fun.  On very rare occasions there was something to learn but, for what I did for a living, I just bought engineering.  The companies are in the phone book and there are a lot of them.

We're not going to have the government building power supplies!
We're not going to flood the market with EEs!
There are things to design that are more fun and more educational than power supplies.  Unless you are trying to build terrawatt lasers.  That would be fun!
Engineers are making a good living and it's going to stay that way.  We're not going to try to compete with 3rd world countries for wages.
In terms of power supplies, there are countries all over the world building them.  China isn't the only game in town even if they are the biggest.  Taiwan is hanging in there as is Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Viet Nam.  We might even set up a plant in Mexico.  Any place where wages are low.

Do the design in a first world country if you want, that's just an NRE cost.  Manufacturing will be done by the lowest bidder.

[coppice]

Now, back when we used 400 Hz (input) power supplies for mainframe power, it was probably interesting.  I remember very well installing 75 kVA frequency changers to create that 400 Hz for CDC and IBM mainframes.

When mainframes ran on 400Hz the supplies were all linear and very crude. There were no challenges at all in designing them. The smart guys went into switch mode supply development, which was a huge challenge in the early days.

[vk6zgo]

When the Chinese (or other Far Eastern country with massive power supply design/manufacture industry) need to build a power supply for a low-volume application, they will do it much better than the West

Yes, ----If they either go to a large specialist supplier like Meanwell, or poach someone who has worked at one.
If, as seems to be the case sometimes, they grab some "rent an Engineers" off the street, they will get something designed from a manufacturer's application note.

The SMPS on some "custom designed" transmitters I worked on were made the latter way, as was the RF design.
As soon as the EEs have done their work, they are "let go", so there is no continuity.
The equipment I am referring to were definitely "low volume" ( there were only five ever made)!

It wasn't really the PSU's fault that they were "smoked"-- it was a power level control which oscillated at 18kHz, over modulating (AM) the PA stages of these supposedly CW transmitters ("rent an EE" strikes again!).

I have seen failed SMPS before, but never have I seen anything as "cooked" as these were.(not repairable).
After much correspondence, we got a new board for one, which was pre mounted on a different sized heat sink, so we had to refit it to the old one or it wouldn't fit into the required space.

From this, it is evident that even in China, small volume manufacturers don't always go to the major suppliers.
I am willing to bet that, if they had gone to Meanwell, the supply would have survived the abuse, & if it had failed, would be repairable.

As to Chinese expertise in microwave work ( although you limit the comment to the,similarities to EMC problems), my experience may give me a jaundiced view, but the level of RF design knowledge revealed by the equipment referred to above points to a "look on the Internet"level.

This company claimed they also supplied transmitters for TV Broadcasting in their home country.
Either they were lying, or Chinese transmitter Techs are the best, (& most stressed) in the world!

Obviously, the big players do it right, but with "small volume" from China "you pays your money, & you takes your chance".

[Kjelt]

Obviously, the big players do it right, but with "small volume" from China "you pays your money, & you takes your chance".

I am unsure if this has to do with quantity.
Look for instance at the millions of unsafe "apple PSU clones", with insufficient distance between tracks, lack of airgaps and other critical safety issues.
That is high quantity but still low quality.

[mikeselectricstuff]

In other words, we have all the engineers we need and are growing them at a sufficient rate (your number) to meet the anticipated needs.

Thanks, but im not so sure, the US is loosing ground to China in a big way.
I think China can do most of the stuff that the West can do now,

Except software, and any aspect of design that needs imagination and creativity. They are still a long way behind here due to the nature of their education system

[tooki]

Obviously, the big players do it right, but with "small volume" from China "you pays your money, & you takes your chance".

I am unsure if this has to do with quantity.
Look for instance at the millions of unsafe "apple PSU clones", with insufficient distance between tracks, lack of airgaps and other critical safety issues.
That is high quantity but still low quality.

Well, I think it’s been sort-of implicit in this discussion that we are talking about the original designs, not counterfeits or other knock-offs. Those are clearly created with entirely different goals, neither of which is safety or performance.

[Kjelt]

Well, I think it’s been sort-of implicit in this discussion that we are talking about the original designs, not counterfeits or other knock-offs. Those are clearly created with entirely different goals, neither of which is safety or performance.

It sure are no 100% clones or they would have been safe. It was a redesign with probably BOM costs as the first and utmost requirement.
It clearly shows an example that some designs and product choices that in China might be allowed and tolerated with an ultra low cost benefit are not suitable and should not be accepted on the western markets.

[Kjelt]

Except software, and any aspect of design that needs imagination and creativity. They are still a long way behind here due to the nature of their education system

I would have agreed till a couple of years ago but lately I have seen SW engineers that can compete with western SW engineers without problem.
It all depends on the university/college and the student, actually the same as it is here, I see very bad SW engineers here as well 
Also a lot of chinese students graduate or even do PhD's on western universities before returning to their home country, those are government sponsored and very bright, met a few that graduated cum laude without a sweat. You don't graduate by copying someone elses work 

BTW a good SW engineer in Bejing has these days the same salary as one here in the Netherlands.
So don't judge their software skills on what you buy or see on Ebay and the likes, those examples are probably relative tiny companies where the HW engineer also writes the "software" , whatever it takes as long as it works.

[tooki]

Well, I think it’s been sort-of implicit in this discussion that we are talking about the original designs, not counterfeits or other knock-offs. Those are clearly created with entirely different goals, neither of which is safety or performance.

It sure are no 100% clones or they would have been safe. It was a redesign with probably BOM costs as the first and utmost requirement.
It clearly shows an example that some designs and product choices that in China might be allowed and tolerated with an ultra low cost benefit are not suitable and should not be accepted on the western markets.

Everyone here understands this. My point was that including that el-cheapo crap is not really within the scope of what’s being discussed here.

[vk6zgo]

Well, I think it’s been sort-of implicit in this discussion that we are talking about the original designs, not counterfeits or other knock-offs. Those are clearly created with entirely different goals, neither of which is safety or performance.

It sure are no 100% clones or they would have been safe. It was a redesign with probably BOM costs as the first and utmost requirement.
It clearly shows an example that some designs and product choices that in China might be allowed and tolerated with an ultra low cost benefit are not suitable and should not be accepted on the western markets.

Everyone here understands this. My point was that including that el-cheapo crap is not really within the scope of what’s being discussed here.

The devices these PSUs were used in were not cheap, by any standards-- definitely cheaper than something built in Australia, EU ( including UK), USA, Japan, etc, but still costing a serious amount of money.
Whether the PSUs were made outside the final equipment maker, or not, is unknown.

What is known, is the cause of their demise was due to poor design in the equipment they powered.
When several of the transmitters were set to their lowest power setting, the PSU would begin to squeal
 (I know that, because we got to one in time to save it).

This was due to an op Amp in the power level control going into oscillation, &, as I mentioned earlier, causing the output of the Tx to be over modulated at around an 18kHz rate.

It seems the PSUs were not designed to operate with such dynamic loads, causing failure.
Where I suggest that they are poorly designed, is in the fact that they completely self destructed in this situation.

The most annoying aspect of this series of events is that making UHF transmitters in the several kW range is not "rocket science"-----they only had to copy something from NEC, or any of the larger TV transmitter manufacturers.
Even granted they didn't do this, perhaps a bit more care in designing (or procuring) their PSUs, may have yielded a happier result.

My original point is that, even Chinese companies do not access the undoubted expertise available in that country.

[tooki]

My comment about el-cheapo crap was referring to the counterfeit Apple chargers mentioned by kjelt.

[rstofer]

The most annoying aspect of this series of events is that making UHF transmitters in the several kW range is not "rocket science"-----they only had to copy something from NEC, or any of the larger TV transmitter manufacturers.

Why didn't your company just buy a known good product from NEC (or equal)?

[vk6zgo]

The most annoying aspect of this series of events is that making UHF transmitters in the several kW range is not "rocket science"-----they only had to copy something from NEC, or any of the larger TV transmitter manufacturers.

Why didn't your company just buy a known good product from NEC (or equal)?

Shoestring budget!, plus NEC etc, probably would have considered us too small an order to specially build for.

We eventually went through a stage of using Icom IC 915A's with an external tube linear amplifier, to ultimately, (after my time) buying proper transmitters from Tomco in South Australia, who are small enough to custom build, but big enough to make a good product.

Tomco have looked at the design leaders in this field, & built to their standard.

[TimNJ]

At most, it is worth a single semester class of 3 units.  Or maybe just a 1 unit seminar...  As a subject, it's pretty meaningless.

I made my PhD out of designing power supplies. I earned 78 credit hours after BS degree, among them 45 are course credits and the rest are research credits.

rstofer, that's quite a bold and ignorant stance to take on the state of power supply design.

It is continually evolving, just like any other field. Achieving efficiencies >95% in the last few years didn't just magically happen. There have been lots of people hard at work!

[Kjelt]

Indeed and the frequencies that are increasing also will increase problems with emc, rf and so on, I am very interested what developments the coming years will bring. One of the challenges is constant high efficiency with a variable power output.

[Bassman59]

2)  how about your other not so brilliant members of the population. They need jobs and meaningfull fullfillment of their lives also or what do you think is going to happen?

This very real issue seems to be blithely ignored by all of the Ayn Randian "Who Is John Galt?" geniuses.

Also, those people are called "customers." They buy the creates on the self-described geniuses. Otherwise, the geniuses wouldn't be necessary.

[BravoV]

So you want something similar to this paid by UK tax payers money ?

Of course believe you understand this fully, say something like this from a person's POV that has high interest and passionate about making a coffee pot like you on power electronics. 

Air Force paid $1,280 apiece for coffee cups.