General > General Technical Chat
Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
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filssavi:
I wholeheartedly agree with you, I personally think that in the long run always staying up to date as much as possible saves a load of time and headache.
Unfortunately the rest of the computing world seems to revolve around lazy peoples, and either you go the apple route, discontinuing and changing what you want, and are thorougly hated for that, or you keep backwards compatibility essentially forever (ok usually 15/30 years, which is pretty much forever), as anyone else does.
This means that no standard can be retired, and the infamous 14 standards xkcd is pretty much the only thing that happens

Case and point the IPv4 to IPv6 transition, it has been going on for 20 years and will not be finished at least until 2040 in my opinion, all the while ipv4 is on life support (many peoples ask ARINC to issue also the 240.0.0.0/4 space, knowing full well that at the moment most of the routers on the planet do not support them, since they were not supposed to be used).
Raj:

--- Quote from: filssavi on June 12, 2020, 10:13:56 am ---
--- Quote from: Raj on June 12, 2020, 08:24:46 am ---"people won't like to replace batteries"
Meanwhile, we third world guys have to deal with using desktops cause it's too hot for laptops to not thermal throttle. But the ups are so horrible, they just save your pc from dying twice, then the battery is useless (doesn't keep the PC alive it'll it's done shutting down)

--- End quote ---

I’m sorry if I came out rude, it really was not my intention. I feel your pain, however the fact of the matter is that development in PC technology is driven by developed “first world” countries needs, and here the power grids are stable enough that the odd crash once or twice a year is not an issue.

Bolting the feature on after the fact is certainly doable, whether you can find a market large enough for it to be economically viable I’m not knowledgeable enough on markets where such a thing would be usefull

--- End quote ---

No, no, you weren't rude at all... Just, you didn't know what people of other countries going through


--- Quote from: Ian.M ---link=topic=244295.msg3094425#msg3094425 date=1591960180]
ATX form factor combo PSU/UPSes are commercially available. Its a niche market but big enough to support a number of manufacturers.
e.g. http://embedded-computing.com/news/trumpower-24v-battery-charger-2/
No special motherboard support required except for a free internally accessible USB port.

--- End quote ---
I didnt know that... Thanks


--- Quote from: bd139 on June 12, 2020, 11:25:52 am ---Samsung Pro 2.5" SATA units are fine as well. I found that the Samsung Pro M2 ones don't have hold up capacitors though as they are usually shoved in laptops. Figured to hell with it when I built my desktop and stuffed a Samsung Evo in it.  :-//

HPE and Intel ones do.

--- End quote ---
Lucky me, has a Samsung

--- Quote from: pepelevamp on June 12, 2020, 12:39:01 pm ---** computer science guy joins the chat

the modern day CPU is full of lies & tricks to get more performance by cheating. writing to local caches etc. its all a big scam. pipe-lining, speculative execution, asynchronous volatile buffers - its all stuff that takes away your ability to deterministically run operations in sequence - all just so you can get more overall throughput.

--- End quote ---
Yup, spectre and meltdown were pretty bad. But 97% performace degradation after patch? Wow! I didnt know that


--- Quote from: engrguy42 ---
Also, W10 has a (sometimes annoying) feature where if it's shut off suddenly it remembers what you were working on and re-starts it all, where you left off, the next time you boot your computer.


--- End quote ---
That's why I like to use alt f4 instead of start menu. Man that stuff is super annoying


--- Quote from: Bud on June 12, 2020, 01:32:34 pm ---What is the point of connecting a battery directly to the desktop computer if it is often required to also keep the display powered and may be some other peripherals. A mains voltage UPS already does that.

--- End quote ---
Since doing that will provide longer standby time with same battery otherwise one could always get "inverter" which can literally power a computer almost 40 times as long (I know that inverter battery is marked 150Ah and ups battery is marked 7Ah, but it's it really? Measure it and 7Ah will come out as 2Ah, since all of them are made by no name brand with no one caring to test em)


--- Quote from: pepelevamp on June 12, 2020, 03:22:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: bd139 on June 12, 2020, 03:02:59 pm ---BTW you can use "picopsu" boards to do this and then use a standard BMC board as the supply for it.
https://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=10

Don't expect to hang a Ryzen 9 off it  :-DD

--- End quote ---
thanks a bunch now i have lost the rest of my life to this rabbit hole. what a fantastic idea. I have long wished that all the devices in my house simply ran off DC. you could have a stack of 18650s in there with a BMS and have your own sweet sensual UPS for a fraction of the cost of those horrible big nasty UPSes that just include those disgusting alternators with their jaggedy excuses for sine waves.

--- End quote ---
I too am trying to literally modify everything I own, to run off of 18650


--- Quote from: bd139 on June 12, 2020, 04:16:36 pm ---That's a bummer. There's enough fragmentation so I agree. I built my first desktop for about 10 years recently and was annoyed to find out that I still had to frig around with LED and power switch wiring like I did in the mid 1990s. Perhaps they can consolidate all that first.

--- End quote ---
Here's a tip, arrange them then hot glue em and then connect and peel the glue off. That way, you'll have to fumble around less


--- Quote from: filssavi on June 12, 2020, 04:52:22 pm ---I wholeheartedly agree with you, I personally think that in the long run always staying up to date as much as possible saves a load of time and headache.
Unfortunately the rest of the computing world seems to revolve around lazy peoples, and either you go the apple route, discontinuing and changing what you want, and are thorougly hated for that, or you keep backwards compatibility essentially forever (ok usually 15/30 years, which is pretty much forever), as anyone else does.
This means that no standard can be retired, and the infamous 14 standards xkcd is pretty much the only thing that happens

Case and point the IPv4 to IPv6 transition, it has been going on for 20 years and will not be finished at least until 2040 in my opinion, all the while ipv4 is on life support (many peoples ask ARINC to issue also the 240.0.0.0/4 space, knowing full well that at the moment most of the routers on the planet do not support them, since they were not supposed to be used).

--- End quote ---
And my isp is like adding NATs to NATs and splitting the bandwith like crazy
pepelevamp:

--- Quote from: Raj on June 12, 2020, 05:12:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: pepelevamp on June 12, 2020, 03:22:38 pm ---thanks a bunch now i have lost the rest of my life to this rabbit hole. what a fantastic idea. I have long wished that all the devices in my house simply ran off DC. you could have a stack of 18650s in there with a BMS and have your own sweet sensual UPS for a fraction of the cost of those horrible big nasty UPSes that just include those disgusting alternators with their jaggedy excuses for sine waves.

--- End quote ---
I too am trying to literally modify everything I own, to run off of 18650

--- End quote ---
Oh mate. Me too. It is the best idea in the universe. I'm hooked on it. With a wee USB charger board or a boost here & there to get ya up to 5v if needed or regulate down to 3v3 - its just wonderful. the whole world should do this.
tom66:
I've had one power cut in the last 3 years.  It should be uncommon enough that it doesn't cause major issue.
Raj:

--- Quote from: tom66 on June 12, 2020, 06:25:17 pm ---I've had one power cut in the last 3 years.  It should be uncommon enough that it doesn't cause major issue.

--- End quote ---
Meanwhile...My company is giving free power to farmers, so that they can run their bore wells, while I get a 15 minute power cut daily. The problem wouldn't be there, if the cut was to happen on a set time, but it happens randomly at any moment.
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