Author Topic: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?  (Read 12734 times)

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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2020, 04:32:48 pm »
Having an external UPS is actually quite good if you have more than one device you want to protect from power loss / brownouts.

I have an ancient APC UPS (with a fresh battery!) under the desk,  it is able to keep everything on the desk alive for about an hour after a power failure (i.e. the PC, test equipment, etc.).  It can communicate with the PC so it can shut itself down safely.  You could even write a program that shuts other things down safely, if the PC can be made to communicate with those things. 

 

Offline RajTopic starter

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2020, 05:06:45 pm »
Having an external UPS is actually quite good if you have more than one device you want to protect from power loss / brownouts.

I have an ancient APC UPS (with a fresh battery!) under the desk,  it is able to keep everything on the desk alive for about an hour after a power failure (i.e. the PC, test equipment, etc.).  It can communicate with the PC so it can shut itself down safely.  You could even write a program that shuts other things down safely, if the PC can be made to communicate with those things.
An hour (as opposed to mine doing just 2 minutes max)? Holy cow, I need to get one
 

Offline madires

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2020, 05:42:09 pm »
That's fairly simple, just oversize the UPS. Most datasheets state the runtime for full load and 50% load. If your load is 100VA a 200VA UPS might give you 8 minutes (3 minutes at full load). The 500VA model runs for 20 minutes, and the 1000VA UPS will give you 40. Several years ago my old UPS broke down but I had an old rackmount UPS from a datacenter at hand (large, heavy, 8 SLAs). That beast was able to power my SOHO datacenter for 3.5 to 4  hours. But it's no UPS you would usually place in you home office, so I bought a smaller SOHO friendly model which provides power for about half an hour with one server running.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2020, 06:33:25 pm »
Comedy gold. I had a 1KVA APC which just exploded when the power went out  :palm:. Was only three months old as well.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2020, 06:54:34 pm »
Comedy gold. I had a 1KVA APC which just exploded when the power went out  :palm:. Was only three months old as well.

You should know better than to buy new stuff!  :D    You need equipment with some experience...
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2020, 07:01:50 pm »
Hahaha probably right. Buy it after all the stuff made on a Friday afternoon has blown up  :-DD
 
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Offline tkamiya

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2020, 02:18:54 am »
There was once a UNIX server computer that came with an UPS built-in.  It was made by either NCR or AT&T, I don't remember.  It was time when network scheme was proprietary.  (no Ethernet)  Unit was quite heavy but I thought it was quite innovative.  Problem was, it was very hard to move, and very difficult to get to the battery.  Pop-open door it was not!

While I agree with OP that it would be nice.  Perhaps super capacitor scheme or something to hold it up for 5 second or so.  Personally, I'd like to have UPS external.  Batteries die predictably, and I really don't want to take computers apart to deal with it.  I have more than 10 running here.  2KVA external UPS works nicely.  Easy maintenance.
 

Offline John B

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2020, 10:17:43 pm »
I have an ancient APC UPS (with a fresh battery!) under the desk,  it is able to keep everything on the desk alive for about an hour after a power failure (i.e. the PC, test equipment, etc.).  It can communicate with the PC so it can shut itself down safely.  You could even write a program that shuts other things down safely, if the PC can be made to communicate with those things.

Not a SmartUPS 2200/3000XL or something perhaps? Here's inside the guts of a 2200XL aka "old faithful". The oldest date code in there is 2001. The current batteries in there are 9 years old! I'm only using it for very light duty stuff, and the frequency of running on the batteries is very low around here.

It has a pure sine wave output, much cleaner than the grid. Between the 2 transformers, heatsinks, and the batteries, this thing weighs like 90lbs. Also have to be careful around those heatsinks, they're connected to the battery. Shorting out 55V at 100's of amps could get spicy.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2020, 11:17:55 pm »
I have an ancient APC UPS (with a fresh battery!) under the desk,  it is able to keep everything on the desk alive for about an hour after a power failure (i.e. the PC, test equipment, etc.).  It can communicate with the PC so it can shut itself down safely.  You could even write a program that shuts other things down safely, if the PC can be made to communicate with those things.

Not a SmartUPS 2200/3000XL or something perhaps? Here's inside the guts of a 2200XL aka "old faithful". The oldest date code in there is 2001. The current batteries in there are 9 years old! I'm only using it for very light duty stuff, and the frequency of running on the batteries is very low around here.

It has a pure sine wave output, much cleaner than the grid. Between the 2 transformers, heatsinks, and the batteries, this thing weighs like 90lbs. Also have to be careful around those heatsinks, they're connected to the battery. Shorting out 55V at 100's of amps could get spicy.

I have a baby one compared to yours, but it still weighs in at a noticeable 27lbs!  I believe it is from the late 90's and looks like this (not the exact unit):




Mine has a brand new battery...  the old one died a quiet and dignified death!   The unit is very strong and like yours, gives beautiful clean output.  They don't mak'em like this etc.!  :D

The software for these units is hopelessly outdated, that's the only real issue with them.  There is an open-source project that supports them with power-down daemons, but I haven't had a play with that yet (I did manage to find one of the special serial cables needed...).

What software do you use, if any?









 

Offline John B

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2020, 11:58:30 pm »
There's  d-sub com port on the back, but I never even thought to try and connect it. I haven't needed to change any of the settings. From the documentation it just has the usual, like turn on and off delays, low battery shutdown %, sensitivity to mains voltage high or low conditions etc.

I'm currently also refurbishing an eaton ex 2200, which is maybe 10 years old, and still it was difficult to track down the software. Haven't got it working yet.

I get the feeling the moment that a UPS manufacturer moves to the next model, the old ones and all support are buried in tombs. I figure that the business models demand that they push out new models constantly. This is reinforced by the fact that all my UPS units are salvaged - they were all destined for the garbage dump. Companies and workplaces replace the batteries maybe once, then turf the whole unit even though nothing else is wrong with them.
 

Offline John B

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2020, 12:02:55 am »
So to answer the initial post - why not incorporate the UPS into a computer as a matter of course? Because you don't want to. It will be a horribly cheap compromised unit.

Better to track down a good quality standalone unit that is being discarded and just needs some new batteries. You should be able to find one cheap, or better free  ;D
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2020, 12:34:00 am »
There is an open-source project that supports them with power-down daemons, but I haven't had a play with that yet (I did manage to find one of the special serial cables needed...).
There's apcupsd, of which one of its most interesting features is the ability to tie in all sorts of automation like CPU frequency control.
http://www.apcupsd.org/manual/#customizing-event-handling
It also looks like it would be easy to program an Arduino to emulate an APC UPS, for those who have a solar power setup with battery backup.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2020, 01:23:42 am »
There is an open-source project that supports them with power-down daemons, but I haven't had a play with that yet (I did manage to find one of the special serial cables needed...).
There's apcupsd, of which one of its most interesting features is the ability to tie in all sorts of automation like CPU frequency control.
http://www.apcupsd.org/manual/#customizing-event-handling
It also looks like it would be easy to program an Arduino to emulate an APC UPS, for those who have a solar power setup with battery backup.

That's the one I was looking at, couldn't recollect the name when I posted! :D
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2020, 01:27:27 am »
There's  d-sub com port on the back, but I never even thought to try and connect it. I haven't needed to change any of the settings. From the documentation it just has the usual, like turn on and off delays, low battery shutdown %, sensitivity to mains voltage high or low conditions etc.

I'm currently also refurbishing an eaton ex 2200, which is maybe 10 years old, and still it was difficult to track down the software. Haven't got it working yet.

I get the feeling the moment that a UPS manufacturer moves to the next model, the old ones and all support are buried in tombs. I figure that the business models demand that they push out new models constantly. This is reinforced by the fact that all my UPS units are salvaged - they were all destined for the garbage dump. Companies and workplaces replace the batteries maybe once, then turf the whole unit even though nothing else is wrong with them.

All mine can do is basically flap one of the pins in that serial port on the back (non standard, so requires a special cable) when the power fails, which signals the computer to shut down gracefully (if it has the right software running that can react to the flapping pin).

Today, it would probably be designed to send some kind of cryptic messages that are difficult or impossible to work with...
 

Offline RajTopic starter

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2020, 04:27:06 am »
There's  d-sub com port on the back, but I never even thought to try and connect it. I haven't needed to change any of the settings. From the documentation it just has the usual, like turn on and off delays, low battery shutdown %, sensitivity to mains voltage high or low conditions etc.

I'm currently also refurbishing an eaton ex 2200, which is maybe 10 years old, and still it was difficult to track down the software. Haven't got it working yet.

I get the feeling the moment that a UPS manufacturer moves to the next model, the old ones and all support are buried in tombs. I figure that the business models demand that they push out new models constantly. This is reinforced by the fact that all my UPS units are salvaged - they were all destined for the garbage dump. Companies and workplaces replace the batteries maybe once, then turf the whole unit even though nothing else is wrong with them.

All mine can do is basically flap one of the pins in that serial port on the back (non standard, so requires a special cable) when the power fails, which signals the computer to shut down gracefully (if it has the right software running that can react to the flapping pin).

Today, it would probably be designed to send some kind of cryptic messages that are difficult or impossible to work with...

That's exactly what i've been thinking of implementing....I created a "shutdown shortcut" and assigned it the hotkey "Cltr+Shift+Alt+F4" ...Soon I'll make a microcontroller send my pc that hotkey via usb keyboard protocol whenever it detects a power failure. I've been thinking of using v-usb along with attiny but Vusb code is klingon to me  :-DD
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2020, 06:20:22 am »
All mine can do is basically flap one of the pins in that serial port on the back (non standard, so requires a special cable) when the power fails, which signals the computer to shut down gracefully (if it has the right software running that can react to the flapping pin).

Today, it would probably be designed to send some kind of cryptic messages that are difficult or impossible to work with...

These days they use USB with a HID driver. Still not quite all standard but there is open source software that works with most of the popular brands and models.

I run a NAS server with Unraid and a UPS connected via USB. Does a pretty good job of it too as it shows up with a ton of information about the UPS such as battery state, current load, estimated backup time remaining, last self test status...etc and can be given a command to turn off the UPS once the OS has finished its shutdown process. Not sure what these periodic self tests do, but it sounds like it switches over to battery power for a few seconds (Maybe its using the load to measure the battery internal resistance to determine if its going to die) and i have no idea how is it supposed to notify me of a failed self test. Will it send a error over the USB or will it beep? No idea, but its only like 2 years old so the battery shouldn't fail yet.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2020, 10:17:13 am »
What software do you use, if any?

Another open source project is NUT (Network UPS tools) which supports most UPS vendors and is quite versatile. It also comes with some features intended for professional use. One drawback is that it doesn't support APC's MODBUS protocol yet (you would have to use an AP9605).
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2020, 01:05:57 pm »
All mine can do is basically flap one of the pins in that serial port on the back (non standard, so requires a special cable) when the power fails, which signals the computer to shut down gracefully (if it has the right software running that can react to the flapping pin).

Today, it would probably be designed to send some kind of cryptic messages that are difficult or impossible to work with...

These days they use USB with a HID driver. Still not quite all standard but there is open source software that works with most of the popular brands and models.

I run a NAS server with Unraid and a UPS connected via USB. Does a pretty good job of it too as it shows up with a ton of information about the UPS such as battery state, current load, estimated backup time remaining, last self test status...etc and can be given a command to turn off the UPS once the OS has finished its shutdown process. Not sure what these periodic self tests do, but it sounds like it switches over to battery power for a few seconds (Maybe its using the load to measure the battery internal resistance to determine if its going to die) and i have no idea how is it supposed to notify me of a failed self test. Will it send a error over the USB or will it beep? No idea, but its only like 2 years old so the battery shouldn't fail yet.

Interesting, it might not be so hard to get an Arduino to act as the HID, converting between the "flapping serial pin" and HID, so modern software can be used...    but then, it takes away from the authentic experience of using ancient equipment!  :D
 

Offline RajTopic starter

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2020, 01:34:08 pm »
All mine can do is basically flap one of the pins in that serial port on the back (non standard, so requires a special cable) when the power fails, which signals the computer to shut down gracefully (if it has the right software running that can react to the flapping pin).

Today, it would probably be designed to send some kind of cryptic messages that are difficult or impossible to work with...

These days they use USB with a HID driver. Still not quite all standard but there is open source software that works with most of the popular brands and models.

I run a NAS server with Unraid and a UPS connected via USB. Does a pretty good job of it too as it shows up with a ton of information about the UPS such as battery state, current load, estimated backup time remaining, last self test status...etc and can be given a command to turn off the UPS once the OS has finished its shutdown process. Not sure what these periodic self tests do, but it sounds like it switches over to battery power for a few seconds (Maybe its using the load to measure the battery internal resistance to determine if its going to die) and i have no idea how is it supposed to notify me of a failed self test. Will it send a error over the USB or will it beep? No idea, but its only like 2 years old so the battery shouldn't fail yet.

Interesting, it might not be so hard to get an Arduino to act as the HID, converting between the "flapping serial pin" and HID, so modern software can be used...    but then, it takes away from the authentic experience of using ancient equipment!  :D

Indeed...I remember that keyboards used to have shutdown button. It should be just an hour of work to make a device that does the intended function.
 
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Offline bluey

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Re: Why aren't computers designed to handle power failure?
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2020, 08:44:48 pm »
A. Use a laptop

B. Modern pcs with journalling filesystems are pretty robust without power protection except for the work you lose that hasn’t been autosaved. Hence A.

C. Server class machines with dual redundant power supplies, battery backed caches, and external ups cost more. For home, see A.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 08:47:04 pm by bluey »
 


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