Why do companies try to take patents out on standard schematics?

[Zero999]

Oh you mean as an employee?

Ahh, so this is just another in a carnival of terrible companies you've worked at?  Par for the course I suppose.

What are the chances that every single company is that bad though, at some point you have to start reflecting on yourself. OP seems to work at companies for at most a few months (contractor?).
If I knew he's going to be gone in a month I wouldn't want to bother setting up an account to access whatever protected folder or site contains the product schematic, unless they had some specific need to look at them. Not to mention accounts sometimes cost a lot of money to add, if this is an online database.

I've never experienced this, but your employer might have identified you as a special case/danger as it would appear from this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/electronics-companies-putting-viruss-onto-usb-sticks/

IT probably controls access then and has him on a watch list. Too much risk in ransomeware taking over important folders at that point.

If he's a contractor, then surely it would be easier to simply not renew his contract, when it ends?

If I had reason to suspect a colleague was up to no good, I'd report him/her to the IT/security manager and hope they investigate. If it turns out they're planning to put malware on the company network, they'd be fired very quickly.

[SiliconWizard]

It all comes down to a given company's policy. I've seen both approaches and almost anything in between.

Just realize that engineers "seeing" schematics is not the main issue there for companies having this kind of "restricted access" policy. The more major confidentiality issue is giving *access* to confidential files in general - because those files can then easily be copied and get out of the company where they should often not belong. And the more employees you give access to files, the higher the probability of file "leaks" - intentional or not!

[thm_w]

If he's a contractor, then surely it would be easier to simply not renew his contract, when it ends?

If I had reason to suspect a colleague was up to no *good, I'd report him/her to the IT/security manager and hope they investigate. If it turns out they're planning to put malware on the company network, they'd be fired very quickly.

Yeah, which is probably what is happening. That or if UK has a probationary period.

I'm not suggesting OP is up to no good intentionally at all, but has some personality problem. Could be along the lines of "everyone is out to get me", and "I know what is best" which is just going to create endless conflict.

[basinstreetdesign]

Go back in time to the 80's / 90's, Philips, a dutch consumer electronics and TME manufacturer, for any of their devices they had service manuals you could order and buy for $15-30.
In the end of the service manual there was the schematic, the pcb layout with quadrants and all the parts that you also could order.
They did this for the repair dept. but also external companies that could repair their products.

Go forward to 2021, Apple won't give any details, schematics, nor sell you any spare chip, etc.

They call that progress 

I remember a time when Philips used to put inside a copy of the schematics, even in a portable transistor radio.

Yes, the Sony TC-560 tape recorder I bought with my student loan in 1971 came with a full schematic.  I used it to hack in a manual direction reverse switch.

In the industry I worked in, broadcast video, full schematics and BOM in the service manual was SOP.

[vk6zgo]

Go back in time to the 80's / 90's, Philips, a dutch consumer electronics and TME manufacturer, for any of their devices they had service manuals you could order and buy for $15-30.
In the end of the service manual there was the schematic, the pcb layout with quadrants and all the parts that you also could order.
They did this for the repair dept. but also external companies that could repair their products.

Go forward to 2021, Apple won't give any details, schematics, nor sell you any spare chip, etc.

They call that progress 

I remember a time when Philips used to put inside a copy of the schematics, even in a portable transistor radio.

Yes, the Sony TC-560 tape recorder I bought with my student loan in 1971 came with a full schematic.  I used it to hack in a manual direction reverse switch.

In the industry I worked in, broadcast video, full schematics and BOM in the service manual was SOP.

Yep, same in the TV studio &  TV/Radio transmitter sites I worked at.

Being on the other side of the world to your supplier made it necessary to know everything you could about the product, so you could fix design stuff ups (and, to be fair, sometimes just unavoidable faults) in equipment, using those components common in Oz.

With a later employer, a customer's piece of hearing test equipment had a failure in the CRT type display(no tech info, of course).

The usual fix was to get a refurbed swap unit from the USA at $A1200, but the maker had decided to discontinue that service, so you had to buy a much more expensive, new monitor section.

Of course, they had sanded the part number off the Scan IC, but a lot of the components around it looked familiar.
I "reached out" to an old colleague, who loaned me an Electrohome BW monitor workshop manual.

The schematic was exactly the same, down to component values, so I nominated the "usual suspect"---an apparently under specified diode.
Sure enough, it was faulty, replaced it with a 10c diode from the parts store, & all was well!

[GlennSprigg]

This may be off topic... so shoot me!!  (End it quicker!!  )
My BIGGEST qualm about 'Schematics', has always been about 'up-keep' of the bloody things!!!
When/where many people/depts work on systems, they often fail to update the drawings/documentation... 
The only thing worse than tech info that is non-existent, is stuff that is out of date or wrong!! Worse than having nothing!   

Many years back, the old PMG Dept produced magnificent schematics for all their "in-house" stuff.
One such, was of a Programme Fail Alarm.

Some years later, after the Broadcast/Comms part became Telecom Aust, we were working after hours at an AM station in the WA Kimberley region, doing yearly checks.

While we were doing this, the PFA failed, so we put it to one side to fix at the end of proceedings.
Looking at it, early in the morning, the schematic "seemed to make sense", but after a "cuppa", we realised that one position showed a PNP transistor, where such a beast would clearly not work.

Yep, the draughtsman had carefully drawn the wrong polarity of device!

The actual (dead) transistor was an NPN type, & changing the drawing made the operation understandable.

The down side was we didn't have the particular type, but luck was with us, & there were some MM1711 NPNs in the spares for the defunct HF comms stuff, which worked a treat, using the "about the same size, three legs, NPN---Yep! that'll do! school of engineering!"

(Re: the highlighted bit in Red).
Haha!!!... That's absolutely true for many general applications!!!    (Especially if it's just used as a 'Switch').
My father was with the 'P.M.G.' too, for many years. (The "Post Master General"'s Dept. back then), before the 'Telecom' days... 
'Off' topic again... but I remember a large installation once, where my 'Company' had been supposedly maintaining/calibrating/servicing
for Years... When I got there, not only were all the drawings wrong, but I found numerous pieces of field devices/equipment not even physically
connected!!  And a few that 'were', were actually connected in Reverse!     I fixed it all, (and the documentation!), but I was troubled about what
to report back to the 'Boss'.  I decided to tell him everything, as 'my' reputation was at stake. Don't know what happened to others though !!   

[Faringdon]

Thanks for all replies.
Long and short is (and concensus here seems to agree), that many electronics companies are overly patenting bog-standard electronic schematics.

[Echo88]

Wasnt the artist formerly known as treez/ocset banned or is it okay to change names here ever so often?

[T3sl4co1l]

is it okay to change names here ever so often?

Yes, you can request a name change.  Also, exceptions have been made, and, as far as I know, none more will be given.

Tim

[Zero999]

is it okay to change names here ever so often?

Yes, you can request a name change.  Also, exceptions have been made, and, as far as I know, none more will be given.

Tim

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/supporters-lounge/treez-how-many-more-accounts-are-acceptable/

The legendary Lockheed Martin "Skunk Works" is a shining example that also delivered brilliant results (P-38, U-2, SR-71 etc.). But I doubt that the OP would even get to vetting.

I used to work for Lockheed Martin, but wasn't involved with anything quite so interesting. Most of it was pretty mundane.

[coppercone2]

It looks like JPL has the most difficult/paranoid tenancies when it comes to information. From what I read enjoying red meat and loud music is a criterion for disqualification. Too many human traits detected.

[thm_w]

I think a Government initiative is needed, where companies are favoured for grant money, if they have allowed lots of different engineers to come in and see their schematics. Also,  a high-ish turnover of electronics engineers is good for a company, because each engineer injects their spectrum of knowledge into the company. So a high turn-over  of electronics engineers in a company helps a company….as such, again, companies who have a high turnover of engineers should be favoured for grant money. This would help the companies, and help the economy.

From my experience, no. High turnover results in the same mistakes being made over and over again.
Other industries might benefit though.

I went in to one company who had an offline flyback, with 810V spikes on a 650V fet, and no primary current limit….all because they had been keeping it far too secret…..they were lucky it was usually  mostly in standby.

So was it failing or not?
If it wasn't failing why would they care.

[Cerebus]

Long and short is (and concensus here seems to agree), that many electronics companies are overly paranoid about protecting bog-standard electronic schematics.

There's no evidence that a consensus has formed to that effect. Would you not agree?

[Benta]

Long and short is (and concensus here seems to agree), that many electronics companies are overly paranoid about protecting bog-standard electronic schematics.

There's no evidence that a consensus has formed to that effect. Would you not agree?

I've found no consensus either. Rather the opposite.

[vk6zgo]

Long and short is (and concensus here seems to agree), that many electronics companies are overly paranoid about protecting bog-standard electronic schematics.

There's no evidence that a consensus has formed to that effect. Would you not agree?

I've found no consensus either. Rather the opposite.

Many of the comments (mine among them) drifted a fair bit 'off topic", so may not be valid, but a rough count tends to give it to those who agree with Faringdon's comment :-

"Long and short is, that many electronics companies are overly paranoid about protecting bog-standard electronic schematics", if not the rest of them.

It is, however, close.

Most people actively involved in repair of Electronic equipment can tell the same stories about idiot "IP" restrictions.

Even really basic stuff runs into this.
I have recently been involved repairing my "Dick Smith D3800/Manson EP925" analog power supply.(slowly, because I am both old & lazy)

A guy who has a Youtube video about repairing such devices was asked, in the comments section, if schematics were available.
He answered that he got one from Manson "after signing an NDA!"

This, for a power supply using a LM723 regulator & five 2n3055 pass transistors-------hardly innovative design, to say nothing of the fact that full schematics are all over the Internet!

Back in the 1920s & '30s, big companies tried to rigidly protect their Patents & other stuff against hobbyists etc, but the "Genie was out of the bottle", with enthusiast magazines springing up around the planet, so their cherished "trade secrets' became "Public Domain" by default.

It probably didn't help their argument, when component manufacturers openly published "suggested designs" using their stuff!

In the present day, I have noticed that it is mainly smallish companies trying the "claiming IP for mainstream stuff" trick.
Big ones just don't supply schematics, but don't really try to justify themselves.

[Cerebus]

That's not however what Farringdon was claiming our consensus agreement to, which was companies keeping their schematics secret from the engineers who work for them. That's a far cry from keeping them out of he hands of the great unwashed, which is what you're talking about. One is paranoia, the other is normal, if unhelpful, commercial practice nowadays.

[vk6zgo]

That's not however what Farringdon was claiming our consensus agreement to, which was companies keeping their schematics secret from the engineers who work for them. That's a far cry from keeping them out of he hands of the great unwashed, which is what you're talking about. One is paranoia, the other is normal, if unhelpful, commercial practice nowadays.

Indeed, my last posting is more about their attitude to "the great unwashed" (formerly known as "customers"), but my first one on this thread (reply#6) referred to a similar situation as that the OP described.

In both cases, it is silliness, rather than paranoia, where both "lay" people, & "half-baked" technical people have delusions of grandeur about their product.

A major industry is not going to take it kindly if a manufacturer on the other side of the world, due to such a policy refuses technical details necessary for the repair of revenue producing equipment.

I have seen this happen, and as a result, poor information availability has relegated a company to the "last choice" list when it comes to buying new equipment.

[Faringdon]

Thanks for all replies...

So I must admit , British electronics co’s, (in fact, all Western Electronics companies) could massively benefit by  not wasting time patenting bog standard schematics.

[RJSV]

   When I worked at the world's largest POT CLUB the front office routinely shredded some bogus 'phone call records', full of useless crap (sounds a lot like a few posts back).  Per Dennis (RIP), the CEO: No computers to be involved in vendor transactions.
Some 5 story's, 25,000 SQ ft. retail nr downtown San Francisco.
   Front office doors had some 'Triple Pickproof' high end locks; whatever that is.
   Organizations do things, for reasons, basic instinct in presence of advesarys, I guess.

[T3sl4co1l]

Probably relevant: https://graphthinking.blogspot.com/2021/09/why-is-everything-so-hard-in-large.html

Tim

[LaserSteve]

At the same place mentioned a few posts back, I sent a document to our partner company, a large defense contractor. I placed the words "Corporate Confidential" in the document's data block per company policy.  Since I had the word "Confidential " in that block I created a security headache for them. Confidential at the time was one of three lower levels of the basic US  Government Secrecy Program at the time.  I had inadvertently created a classified document without proper nomenclature by merely emailing a schematic.

   Their Corporate VP of Security was on the phone to me in under thirty minutes. I received an ass chewing of inordinate magnitude until he realized I had not been briefed on such things.  This triggered a trip to their plant for a serious lecture  by the plant security officer. All of this over a civilian product. Finally they did the background checks so I could be an un-escourted visitor at the plant and bring documents over. Driving the documents over, 40 minutes each way, canceled the automated  email screening and made things easier for them.

They, being one of two major employers in a small town in the middle of nowhere, also asked the local PD to informally take a look at my lifestyle.  Nothing there to find, anyways. What made me mad was small town  PD asking my landlord to let them  take a look at my apartment.  The scary part was said landlord, also a corporate employee, was more then happy to let them in.

After all I was an outsider in a little town in middle America whose major employers were two defense contractors surrounded by the Amish for miles.

For some things such security is needed.  But not for what I was working on at the time.

I have to laugh about this, for afterwords I was working on actual government projects with a fraction of the hassle and harassment.  With far more professional security folks.

Steve

[Cerebus]

At the same place mentioned a few posts back, I sent a document to our partner company, a large defense contractor. I placed the words "Corporate Confidential" in the document's data block per company policy.  Since I had the word "Confidential " in that block I created a security headache for them. Confidential at the time was one of three lower levels of the basic US  Government Secrecy Program at the time.  I had inadvertently created a classified document without proper nomenclature by merely emailing a schematic.

Except you hadn't, no matter what some bonehead said. Unless you had actual formal authority to classify a document; I think you'd know if you had been "specifically authorized in writing by the President, the Agency Head, or the Senior Agency Official [to] classify documents originally" as the official rules provide. Any old person putting "confidential", "secret" or "top secret" onto something doesn't make it officially so (kind of obvious really) - otherwise the entire population of teachers in the US would be jail for unauthorised access to classified information, because what small boy hasn't written "top secret" on his school workbook at some point.


You should probably sic some ambulance chaser onto that landlord and local PD, got to be worth a few thousand at least. 

[coppercone2]

that sounds like a corrupt mining town from the 50's

that's what I call an excuse to investigate something someone found suspicious under the lightest cause. more then likely it happens alot but there is no cross communication between employees (i.e. someone felt the background check is just not good enough for their claws)

Until a document is fully authorized by at least he entire management chain of the department the whole explanation they gave you is a bunch of garbage . the comic book would be called fantastic horse shit vol 4

[GopherT]

I don't think it is a question of paranoia, it is about efficiency and accountability.  If two engineers are assigned to build a bog-simple circuit, the company doesn't need "loads of engineers" putting eyes on it. The two engineers should be given remedial training, and mentoring if they have trouble with "bog simple" circuits. The cost of putting a circuit on copper is dropping so low that a fast failure is cheaper than an an endless review and error check.

Finally, when "loads of engineers" review a circuit, blame is diluted, root causes (or substandard employees) cannot be identified and the wasted time becomes a culture of mediocracy. 

If you are the one asking to see someone else's circuit, you need more projects of your own.
If you want "loads of other engineers" to review your circuit, you may be the root cause of sub-par performance.

[SiliconWizard]

Being worried about the “standard electronics” designs being copied is futile…..because after all, the Chinese are the masters of Electronics now anyway….so whatever “standard electronics” a western company can do, the Chinese can do it better…...so the British (western) electronics companies would benefit by employing loads of different electronics engineers and letting them all see their “standard electronics” designs…….
(...)
This is not anti-China….the Chinese are totally honorable people. The Chinese have become “1st world” without invading other countries….the Chinese are superb decent people.

So, this is an "interesting" shift here from your older position. It was all kind of how bad things were and how bad people subcontracting/buying from chinese companies were. And how it destroyed our industry. Now you seem to have become all enamored with what was once a threat. You're maybe looking for a job?