EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: MathWizard on December 13, 2024, 10:25:38 pm
-
Most of the calls I get are scammers, and the bot's that see if you're home, or maybe even record your voice. So I've stopped answering most calls, when I don't know the number. And most people around here do the same these days.
I know someone could send me fake mail or email too, and I might not notice the difference, but now with voice spoofing, and "AI", how long until no one can trust phones anymore ?? For now video phones might work, but for how many more years or decades till that's fake-able ?
And how do the scammers get away with it so easy ? I can't really ever remember hearing of a scam call center being busted. And actually I'm forgetting, some of them can be in other countries, that complicates it in some ways. But shouldn't it also make it easier to sift through and block lines ?
But really tho, is it just too hard and expensive to stop most of it ? Can someone turn "AI" loose on the phone system, can it track them down yet ??
-
Scambiter has damaged quite a few scam call centers in India.
https://youtube.com/@scambaiter?feature=shared (https://youtube.com/@scambaiter?feature=shared)
-
no profit, no action. ;)
-
Here's the scammer taker-downer that I like: https://www.youtube.com/@ScammerPayback (https://www.youtube.com/@ScammerPayback)
-
It's very difficult to catch the scammers because they use VoIP calling (which is possible to do anonymously) and operate in countries with limited or corrupt police forces. Usually you find for the call center bosses in India they are either very rich (so likely have government connections) or family members work in the police so they can be nudged to look the other way.
I think the advent of AI bots that can tie scammers up in knots is fantastic. A scammer isn't going to bother if 99% of the time the "victims" are in fact AI's which just waste half an hour every time before they figure it out. Since they mostly target elderly people a lot of umm, err, sorry I don't understand, and you quickly have a very efficient way to waste their time.
In terms of AI faking someone's voice, I think it could happen. Me and my family have agreed some phrases that we keep secret between ourselves to identify each other. Apparently, as little as 10 seconds of normal voice is sufficient to fake another's voice. At work I regularly get emails from people pretending to be the managing director, these are obvious scams ("please I need a laptop quickly order this one from Amazon and ship it to this address"), but I don't think it'll be too long before phone calls with more convincing attacks will occur ("hi <accountant person> I need you to approve invoice <xyz> immediately as this is very important to us").
-
Those are some good videos, I'm having deja-vu, I probably asked about this before and forget I've seen video's of people messing with the scammers. I don't want to do that myself tho, but yeah it's just so annoying.
How much of the difficultly is related to legacy equipment or systems ?
-
"You have no provacy anyway, get over it!"
Scott McNealy , CEO Sun Microsystems 1999
_________
"There is no SAFE"
Mafia don John Gotti, about phone taps
Jon
-
A simple way to fix it for actual callers would be an app to send the bit sequence that decodes to the loudest, most annoying sound possible. (That most likely would require root.) A step above holding the phone to the smoke alarm and pressing the button.
-
... now with voice spoofing, and "AI", how long until no one can trust phones anymore ?? For now video phones might work, but for how many more years or decades till that's fake-able ?
We have already taken the step in our organisation that voice and caller ID alone are not enough to authenticate a caller. The technology to reliably spoof a voice with a high degree of accuracy is available to average consumers (and scammers) right now. Overseas scam call centres are using it to mask the "foreign" accents to make calls sound more legitimate, and serious threat actors have already used similar techniques to fleece companies out of millions of dollars.
And how do the scammers get away with it so easy ? I can't really ever remember hearing of a scam call center being busted. And actually I'm forgetting, some of them can be in other countries, that complicates it in some ways. But shouldn't it also make it easier to sift through and block lines ?
But really tho, is it just too hard and expensive to stop most of it ? Can someone turn "AI" loose on the phone system, can it track them down yet ??
The vast majority of scam call centres operate from India, with others operating from Phiippines, Ukraine (typically targeting Russia), Germany, Lebanon, Albania and others.
It's so simple to register local numbers using stolen identities and through the use of VoIP, you don't need physical presence in the country where the number is registered. Enforcing these laws across borders is difficult, and time consuming.
Sifting through this mass amount of phone calls and SMS's and identifying scam calls from legitimate ones is not easy, but telco's in some countries are cracking down on it quite hard.
The best thing consumers can do is:
- Report scams to your telco, this helps build intelligence.
- Don't answer calls from unknown numbers.
- Utilise voicemail; Important callers will usually leave a message or try to reach you by other means.
- Find a way to verify who you're speaking to at the other end. Only ever use company numbers from verified sources such as official websites, correspondence or bills.
- Encourage your friends and family to use trusted applications such as Signal for messaging and voice/video calls.
- If your current provider isn't doing enough to filter spam, consider switching to another provider.
- Never recycle passwords!
- Keep an eye on data breaches through websites such as https://haveibeenpwned.com
- Monitor your credit record. There are many applications and websites that let you do this for free. ClearScore is an excellent one.
- Regularly check your bank accounts for suspicious transactions. Use your banks/credit card providers application on your phone to get live notifications of any transactions.
-
A simple way to fix it for actual callers would be an app to send the bit sequence that decodes to the loudest, most annoying sound possible. (That most likely would require root.) A step above holding the phone to the smoke alarm and pressing the button.
For my landline if I do pick it up I wait silently for the other party to test the waters. Usually the call hangs up in a few seconds. They eventually stop and someone else will start up. I only ever accept calls on my area code prefix and I can program the phone to block interstate and international calls. It's not perfect but every little bit helps.
-
I think the solution is for Trump to send a black ops team to India.
-
Need to something about the onshore sim farms
-
For private households, what would be examples of legitimate business transactions that start by some company or institution calling you? In my experience there are very few transactions that occur via the phone at all. And those all start with me calling the company, bank, city administration...
So I don't really get why phone scams work at all. :-//
-
What is the law, is VOIP treated as regular phone call?
Here data and not data are different.
Though can't say what is what.
-
Years ago, I bought a phone for my parents' land line. It picked up without ringing and played the message: "Please press <number> to continue" If the person pressed the number, it would ring on all the connected cordless phones for someone to pick up if they wanted. Phone numbers on a white-list always rang. It virtually eliminated spam calls from ringing.
I wish there was an app like that for the cell phones. I do not know if that is technically possible under Android.
Another thing I did long before that, when land lines were ubiquitous and cell phones rare, was to play the standard "This number is not in service" tone as the first thing in my voice mail followed by me saying "Just kidding, the number is in service, I just don't pick up. Please leave a message." I stopped picking up the phone for a few weeks. All the spam calls went to voice mail and the spammers took off my number from their call list because their automated systems were programmed to recognize that tone sequence as an invalid number. The spam call volume went down by 90% Don't know if it will still work.
-
I wish there was an app like that for the cell phones. I do not know if that is technically possible under Android.
It most likely would be possible with root.
-
For my landline if I do pick it up I wait silently for the other party to test the waters. Usually the call hangs up in a few seconds.
I usually do the same for both my mobile and landline.
I don't get a lot of scam calls - but occasionally I'll answer and when they say something that is clearly scam material, I respond with excitement... "Oh! A scammer!! I haven't had a scammer for ages!" and let them try and rescue the situation .... for about 3 seconds at which point I shut them down and hang up.
You would think, though, that in this day and age, there would be some avenues available.
-
Something should be done about the dodgy service providers that supply sip-trunks without verifying that the user owns or has the right use the calling number.
-
OK, first thing I did was check if context of this thread is focus on annoying calls, or on hackers seeking access to your phone data, passwords, etc.
The telemarketing aspect seems mainly annoying, and simple use of your phone screen will help discern which calls you want to accept. Most cases I just let everything run to voicemail and catch up with (any) needed call-back.
I think it's out-dated to feel guilty or snobbish to guilty that you didn't 'pick up' right away when 'MOM' called. Some people still press the issue, so you have to decide...But you maybe need to recognize the environment, out there.
That's (usually) NOT Mom calling, and you aren't obligated to extend such courteous habits.
-
For Telstra customers in Australia; Telstra are now flagging suspicious calls with real-time messages. The network identifies when a caller ID is spoofed, calls from high volume numbers and those that look like local numbers but actually originate from overseas.
https://www.telstra.com.au/connected/cyber-security-and-safety/protect-yourself-from-scam-calls (https://www.telstra.com.au/connected/cyber-security-and-safety/protect-yourself-from-scam-calls)
It's not the perfect solution, but it's a step in the right direction. Telstra seem to be doing much more than any other carrier.
-
Well, experience in Mainland China:
With some phone brands as Oppo/OnePlus the phones OS come with a function that lets you flag calls as fraudulent what what reason being Sales, Spam, Advertising and also as legit as Delivery Driver, Hospital, Bank, etc.
Basically it works by some users flag the number and then everyone when they receive that call from that number instead of only showing the number it also shows how it was flagged and by how many users.
Not all manufacturers support such, for example my wife previously had a Huawei and now uses a Xiaomi and never saw such function in both phones. And it only saw such in equipments with China Specific OS, so without Google Services/Google App shop installed and their own brand app shop.
In Hong Kong there are specific apps you can install to help you to flag calls.
-
Well, experience in Mainland China:
With some phone brands as Oppo/OnePlus the phones OS come with a function that lets you flag calls as fraudulent what what reason being Sales, Spam, Advertising and also as legit as Delivery Driver, Hospital, Bank, etc.
Basically it works by some users flag the number and then everyone when they receive that call from that number instead of only showing the number it also shows how it was flagged and by how many users.
Now that is one smart function.
Who says the Chinese aren't going to become the dominant technological force in the world?
-
For private households, what would be examples of legitimate business transactions that start by some company or institution calling you? In my experience there are very few transactions that occur via the phone at all. And those all start with me calling the company, bank, city administration...
So I don't really get why phone scams work at all. :-//
I think they've called me pretending to be Apple or Amazon, but I knew I had no recent purchase and hung up.
But yeah, it's more targeting old people, or people new to computers. I've never had any online retailer call me, that I can remember, it's always email.
-
I've never had a smart phone. I'm trying to never have one. I gave up my land line 12 years ago (it is used only to deliver internet now). I use a flip phone which I never used to go on-line with but still get a scam robocall about 2-3 times/week, never from a live person. I can live with all of this just fine.
-
For private households, what would be examples of legitimate business transactions that start by some company or institution calling you? In my experience there are very few transactions that occur via the phone at all. And those all start with me calling the company, bank, city administration...
So I don't really get why phone scams work at all. :-//
We get lots of scam calls on our cell phone as well. The amusing ones are callers with thick foreign accents whose spoofed phone number is not only in our area code, but our "exchange" (XXX-yyyy).
Legitimate calls to us include: dentist office confirming or changing appointment time, pharmacy reminding us of prescription renewal or delivery, not too many otherwise.
-
Well, experience in Mainland China:
With some phone brands as Oppo/OnePlus the phones OS come with a function that lets you flag calls as fraudulent what what reason being Sales, Spam, Advertising and also as legit as Delivery Driver, Hospital, Bank, etc.
Basically it works by some users flag the number and then everyone when they receive that call from that number instead of only showing the number it also shows how it was flagged and by how many users.
My Samsung A35 (midrange Android) phone also lets me mark incoming calls as spam. That immediately blocks further calls from that number to my own phone. At the same time I can choose whether I also want to report the call to Samsung, and understand that they will add numbers to a global blacklist if many users report them as spam. I have the regular EU version of the phone; seems to be a mainstream feature.
-
Well, experience in Mainland China:
With some phone brands as Oppo/OnePlus the phones OS come with a function that lets you flag calls as fraudulent what what reason being Sales, Spam, Advertising and also as legit as Delivery Driver, Hospital, Bank, etc.
Basically it works by some users flag the number and then everyone when they receive that call from that number instead of only showing the number it also shows how it was flagged and by how many users.
My Samsung A35 (midrange Android) phone also lets me mark incoming calls as spam. That immediately blocks further calls from that number to my own phone. At the same time I can choose whether I also want to report the call to Samsung, and understand that they will add numbers to a global blacklist if many users report them as spam. I have the regular EU version of the phone; seems to be a mainstream feature.
My simple "smartphone" has the spam reporting feature, but since the caller's phone number is almost always spoofed, it does nothing about future calls from the spammer.
(Another quite different thread here is about trademarks. "SpamTM" is a trademark for spiced ham product from Hormel, but Monty Python's sketch about "spam, spam, spam, and spam" has rendered it into a bad thing.)
-
"SpamTM" is a trademark for spiced ham product from Hormel [...]
Tim, what, do you moonlight as an IP attorney? Izzat why you're so gung-ho about protecting those precious trademarks?
-
"SpamTM" is a trademark for spiced ham product from Hormel [...]
Tim, what, do you moonlight as an IP attorney? Izzat why you're so gung-ho about protecting those precious trademarks?
Spam is also a genericised word. In 2007, Hormel failed to prevent a software developer from using the word in its own trademark. The Trademark Trial and Appeal Board stated in that matter that: "The fame of the SPAM mark entitles Hormel to broad protection, but not a monopoly on use. Specifically, SPAM’s fame does not extend to computer software. The use of the word spam in SPAM ARREST is derived from the generic meaning, not from the famous meaning".
-
My mother has problem with spammers/scammers in the states. Here in Russia I have MTC Zashitnik, which is a free service, it blocks spam calls and shows on your phone if the caller is spammer or potentionally unwanted telemarketer. :-//
Problem solved.
At the moment I have it off, because I'm expecting some important calls and I want to make sure they get through. No reason why they shouldn't with zashitnik on, but none the less.
Now why you don't have such a service? I don't know. I asked my mom about something like this in the states, and they don't appear to have it. She brought me a phone and when setting it up, there was a ton of blocked numbers, which I had to unblock one by one, took me 40 minutes.
-
Well, experience in Mainland China:
With some phone brands as Oppo/OnePlus the phones OS come with a function that lets you flag calls as fraudulent what what reason being Sales, Spam, Advertising and also as legit as Delivery Driver, Hospital, Bank, etc.
Basically it works by some users flag the number and then everyone when they receive that call from that number instead of only showing the number it also shows how it was flagged and by how many users.
My Samsung A35 (midrange Android) phone also lets me mark incoming calls as spam. That immediately blocks further calls from that number to my own phone. At the same time I can choose whether I also want to report the call to Samsung, and understand that they will add numbers to a global blacklist if many users report them as spam. I have the regular EU version of the phone; seems to be a mainstream feature.
All you are probably doing is blocking a spoofed number
-
"SpamTM" is a trademark for spiced ham product from Hormel [...]
Tim, what, do you moonlight as an IP attorney? Izzat why you're so gung-ho about protecting those precious trademarks?
Spam is also a genericised word. In 2007, Hormel failed to prevent a software developer from using the word in its own trademark. The Trademark Trial and Appeal Board stated in that matter that: "The fame of the SPAM mark entitles Hormel to broad protection, but not a monopoly on use. Specifically, SPAM’s fame does not extend to computer software. The use of the word spam in SPAM ARREST is derived from the generic meaning, not from the famous meaning".
Yeah, as far as i know it is the case internationally, that trademarks only apply to certain business areas. You cannot (or could not, if the trademark really expired) call another meat product spam, but in software the name would be reasonably fair game, as long as you do not try to create an affiliation with the other brand.
-
The vast majority of scam call centres operate from India, with others operating from Phiippines, Ukraine (typically targeting Russia), Germany, Lebanon, Albania and others.
From Germany? That's new for me. Most of the scam calls over here come from east Europe, some from Turkey, and India of course. The Indian scammers usually try the Microsoft support scam and added the classic refund scam recently.
-
The vast majority of scam call centres operate from India, with others operating from Phiippines, Ukraine (typically targeting Russia), Germany, Lebanon, Albania and others.
From Germany? That's new for me. Most of the scam calls over here come from east Europe, some from Turkey, and India of course. The Indian scammers usually try the Microsoft support scam and added the classic refund scam recently.
I can't recall the last scam/spam call that I had. Telstra has put a lot effort into stopping spam/scam calls and sms.
We used to get lots saying there were problem with our internet. blah blah
My wife used to ask them for their employee number and contact number, they always hung up after that.
One colleague, response to there is a problem with you microsoft operating system, was how do Install linux
A few back there were a lot scam call in chinesse
-
Scamming from Germany is actually not all that surprising for me, at least not on a technical level.
At least the Telekom still supports a feature that is essentially "dual use", called CLIP no Screening.
If that is enabled, you as the caller are enabled to modify the Caller ID, the number that is visible to the called party.
This is something very useful if you host your own internal PBX. This allows you to transmit the caller id of the original caller when a call is forwarded. Otherwise, without CLIP no Screening, you can only transmit caller ids that actually belong to you (i. e. the number of the phone with the forward set), and you will not be able to call the original caller back.
Of course this can be misused, and is misused. But Telekom is generally responsive regarding abuse, and will be quick to turn CLIP no screening off for customers. They did that to us a couple of years back after a misconfiguration we made.
Also there supposedly was a change that *should* no longer enable us to spoof foreign caller ids, but i can confirm that this still works for us. We work a lot with the netherlands, and we can do CLIP no screening with their numbers.
Phone companies, at least in theory should still be able to relatively easily track scammers though. The caller id is not the only number that is transmitted in SIP calls. There is also whats called a billing id, that is always the main number of the originating trunk. It's just that this number is completely hidden from the customers, and often gets lost when calls traverse between providers.
-
My Samsung A35 (midrange Android) phone also lets me mark incoming calls as spam. That immediately blocks further calls from that number to my own phone. At the same time I can choose whether I also want to report the call to Samsung, and understand that they will add numbers to a global blacklist if many users report them as spam. I have the regular EU version of the phone; seems to be a mainstream feature.
All you are probably doing is blocking a spoofed number
Probably not, in the particular case where I used the feature this week. (I rarely get spam/scam calls at all.) Received two calls from the same foreign number which had already called last week, never leaving a message. Even if it should be a spoofed number, as long as they use it repeatedly the block will be effective.
-
Also there supposedly was a change that *should* no longer enable us to spoof foreign caller ids, but i can confirm that this still works for us. We work a lot with the netherlands, and we can do CLIP no screening with their numbers.
Starting in December of last year a new regulation was applied to have telcos remove the caller ID from calls originating outside the country and sending a German telephone number. However, that doesn't work reliably for mobile phone numbers as they can be in use around the globe when people are travelling. Therefore scammers switched to spoof mobile numbers or numbers from other European countries. The new regulation helps a bit, but is far from a success story.
-
Major problem I see in stopping the scam calls is the spoofing of phone numbers, most seem to come from India but the numbers show up as local ones. There are organisations that track down these call centres but the authorities where they operate from either do not care, incompetent or paid off, I think the only answer is drastic measures such as the SAS or Navy seals etc being used to eliminate the organisers of such nefarious activities, we know who they are and where they are so one or two meeting with unfortunate accidents like falling off the non existent balcony should make the rest pause for thought and consider the errors of their ways.