Author Topic: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?  (Read 4053 times)

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Offline David Hess

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2020, 12:30:05 pm »
I think if high-end analog oscilloscopes had continued to be developed into the late 90s, screensavers for the CRT might have become a thing, but for just a plain old analog oscilloscope it seems like a lot of work to implement. The only ones I can think of (as already mentioned) are the Teks with MCP.

MCP oscilloscopes are a special case because the MCP has a limited operating life.

As said above, just blanking the CRT display would have been an easy way to avoid screen burns.

You have to be careful about blanking a CRT.  Extended operating time with the heater active but no cathode current can damage the cathode.  (1) This becomes a problem in applications where the instrument is powered for long duration but the CRT intensity is turned off to preserve the CRT.  Turn the intensity down, but not off, and defocus it if you must.

Vacuum tubes have the same problem when operated in cutoff.  Special cathode materials were used to avoid this issue in applications where operation in cutoff would be routine like digital logic.

The above suggests that analog oscilloscope CRTs were constructed to operate in cutoff, at least after the problem was recognized, but *raster* CRTs were not.

(1) Robert B. Tomer calls this "interface resistance" in his book but does not describe the mechanism because I do not think anybody at the time knew how it happened.  It results in a severe loss of transconductance.  My guess is that ion poisoning is responsible when the ion trap is not operating.

Quote
On old analog scopes which basically had no "fixed" area of the display, the problem would be minor unless the user left the exact same signal on display for a very long time. Probably not that much of a problem in practice.

The problem started to appear when scopes started to have on-screen display of extra information. I guess automatically blanking the screen after a defined amount of time would have solved the issue, but OTOH that could have been pretty annoying for many use cases.

The common aluminized phosphors used in oscilloscope CRTs are not susceptible to screen burn except at very high beam currents which explains why I have never seen ones of these CRTs with screen burn from the readout.  Contrast them with storage and MCP CRTs where screen burn in the readout area is common.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 12:56:32 pm by David Hess »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2020, 09:25:30 pm »
OLED displays can also suffer burn-in (it's a problem with TVs).
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2020, 11:49:14 pm »
Low voltage phosphors are also more delicate which becomes a problem in plasma and field emission displays.  This might also apply to oscilloscope CRTs which lack post deflection acceleration but there are so few of them that I am not sure.  I think CRTs with MCP image amplification also have to use low voltage phosphors but in that case, the MCP itself wears out with use so it may not matter.  I am not sure where storage displays fit here although they operate with lower acceleration voltages.

 

Offline Krotow

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2020, 10:02:25 pm »
To stop that nasty screen burn. which plagues them All. Also the Plasma &  Phosphor screens suffer from screen burn .  :'(

  I have never seen screen burn on a Digital screen . ie LCD, LED,  But all have a screen saver .. Why.. ?? 

Actually I seen burn-in lines on at least two laptop LCD screens. My old workplace in nineties had two laptops with Intel 386 and 486 CPUs and LCD screens, made circa 1992 and 1994 by Compaq and probably Toshiba. We used them for inventory accounting and customs declaration preparing. Both programs used forms with distinct white line frames. Also laptops worked without any power save attempts (who need power save when computer is (mostly) always is plugged in wall). During 6 years white frames burned in screens so well that became visible when laptops was turned off. Go figure, why it happened.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 10:05:49 pm by Krotow »
 

Offline HwAoRrDk

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2020, 10:29:27 pm »
OLED displays can also suffer burn-in (it's a problem with TVs).

Yes. My previous smartphone had an OLED screen and had noticeable burn-in after 5 years. The screen had a slight yellow tint to it, with the exception of the Android status bar area at the top of the screen; that area had a black background, so did not suffer from the burn-in. The yellow tint was only noticeable when displaying a white background full-screen - there would be a brighter, whiter strip at the top of the screen - so I wasn't bothered by it, but was disappointed that the OLED display had degraded after a relatively short time.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2020, 01:00:30 am »
Actually I seen burn-in lines on at least two laptop LCD screens. My old workplace in nineties had two laptops with Intel 386 and 486 CPUs and LCD screens, made circa 1992 and 1994 by Compaq and probably Toshiba. We used them for inventory accounting and customs declaration preparing. Both programs used forms with distinct white line frames. Also laptops worked without any power save attempts (who need power save when computer is (mostly) always is plugged in wall). During 6 years white frames burned in screens so well that became visible when laptops was turned off. Go figure, why it happened.

I don't know that I'd call it "burn-in" though. It's not the same mechanism as worn out phosphors, it's liquid crystals that get stuck and stop responding for some reason. Not sure of the actual mechanism, electrolysis perhaps from less than perfect drive electronics?
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2020, 04:18:47 am »
I think if high-end analog oscilloscopes had continued to be developed into the late 90s, screensavers for the CRT might have become a thing, but for just a plain old analog oscilloscope it seems like a lot of work to implement. The only ones I can think of (as already mentioned) are the Teks with MCP.

MCP oscilloscopes are a special case because the MCP has a limited operating life.

As said above, just blanking the CRT display would have been an easy way to avoid screen burns.

You have to be careful about blanking a CRT.  Extended operating time with the heater active but no cathode current can damage the cathode.  (1) This becomes a problem in applications where the instrument is powered for long duration but the CRT intensity is turned off to preserve the CRT.  Turn the intensity down, but not off, and defocus it if you must.

Vacuum tubes have the same problem when operated in cutoff.  Special cathode materials were used to avoid this issue in applications where operation in cutoff would be routine like digital logic.

The above suggests that analog oscilloscope CRTs were constructed to operate in cutoff, at least after the problem was recognized, but *raster* CRTs were not.

(1) Robert B. Tomer calls this "interface resistance" in his book but does not describe the mechanism because I do not think anybody at the time knew how it happened.  It results in a severe loss of transconductance.  My guess is that ion poisoning is responsible when the ion trap is not operating.

The so-called "ion trap" used in earlier TV CRTs doesn't trap anything!

Before such devices, CRTs suffered from "ion burn", where a small circular burn appeared at the centre of the tube over time---- it looked uncannily like a cigarette burn!

Along with the desired electrons, cathodes emit negative ions, which are also attracted to the screen due to its high positive potential.
They are not deflected by the magnetic deflection systems used in TV tubes, so always impact the phosphor in the same spot.
Although they travel slower than electrons, they are much more massive, & over time, damage the phosphor.
(In the case of ordinary vacuum tubes, the anode is  mechanically rugged, & no damage is done.)

To solve this problem, CRT manufacturers positioned electron guns so that they were "pointed" off screen.
To get the electron beam centred, they used a fixed magnet to deflect it back "in line".

The negative ions were not so deflected, & continued on their way, finally harmlessly impacting upon the inside of the glass envelope.

There remained one other problem---- when the TV was turned off, the desired electron beam was now undeflected, the cathode was still hot, & EHT was still present, resulting in an intense electron beam hitting the centre of the tube.
This only happened at turn off, & took a lot longer to show ill effects than ion burn, but would show eventually.
This was prevented by the use of a "spot swallower" which opened the cathode connection at turn off.
All this technology cost money, adding to the final price of TV set, but aluminised screens swept away both problems "in one fell swoop".

The only mechanism by which ions could damage the cathode, as far as I can see, would be if the grid was biased well negative of the cathode, where the ions, once emitted, would return to the cathode which is now the more positive tube element.
Positive ions are not present in any significant numbers in the high vacuum of a CRT.

Leaving a CRT  or any tube on heaters/filaments only on for a long time while not in use, expends lifetime "hours" as the emitting material has a limted service life before emission starts to fall.

That said, older Radio & TV Broadcasting transmitters using all tube construction commonly had standard "warm up" times of around 10-15 minutes.
This was mainly due to the need to fully prepare mercury vapor rectifiers for use.
All the other tubes shared this time interval, with no effect upon their life times.

OK, that is not quite the condition you referred to, which would be with all the other elements powered as normal, but the grid biased to cut the tube off.

TV sync generators happily operated multiple bistables using 12AT7s or similar, with, at any time, one triode of each pair in cutoff.
They also were used in monostables where "one triode in cutoff" would be for more extended periods.

This would be similar to your suggested "data" use.

Again not quite the use case you mentioned.
Quote


Quote
On old analog scopes which basically had no "fixed" area of the display, the problem would be minor unless the user left the exact same signal on display for a very long time. Probably not that much of a problem in practice.

The problem started to appear when scopes started to have on-screen display of extra information. I guess automatically blanking the screen after a defined amount of time would have solved the issue, but OTOH that could have been pretty annoying for many use cases.

The common aluminized phosphors used in oscilloscope CRTs are not susceptible to screen burn except at very high beam currents which explains why I have never seen ones of these CRTs with screen burn from the readout.  Contrast them with storage and MCP CRTs where screen burn in the readout area is common.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2020, 07:50:20 pm »
One of the old Tektronix documents discusses their CRT design history and mentioned the issues with ions and how they were handled.  I recall reading that the aluminized screens of later oscilloscopes catch and hold them.

One interesting thing I noticed is that old oscilloscopes which have been in storage for 10 years or more have a display which brightens and sharpens over an operating time of days.  I first noticed this in my 7603 when I accidentally left it running for a week because being silent, I did not notice that it was on.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 08:00:41 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2020, 08:49:24 pm »
As a teaching assistant in the Physics department in 1971, we had to ride herd on the students using Tektronix 541 oscilloscopes, since leaving the intensity up (in auto mode) with no input could easily burn a horizontal line on the CRT from the stationary trace along the center line of the display.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why do Digital Displays have a Screen saver. When CRT's Don't?
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2020, 02:42:23 am »
One of the old Tektronix documents discusses their CRT design history and mentioned the issues with ions and how they were handled.  I recall reading that the aluminized screens of later oscilloscopes catch and hold them.

One interesting thing I noticed is that old oscilloscopes which have been in storage for 10 years or more have a display which brightens and sharpens over an operating time of days.  I first noticed this in my 7603 when I accidentally left it running for a week because being silent, I did not notice that it was on.

I think it cleans up the cathode to be used, impurities are driven out and it "wakes up". Nixie tubes that have sat for a long time often have cathodes that don't fully illuminate but they come back after running for a while.
 


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