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General => General Chat => Topic started by: Beamin on May 04, 2018, 08:05:33 pm

Title: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on May 04, 2018, 08:05:33 pm
I'm sure many of you here can relate to that...  :-DD

But I noticed when I walk into places like micro center and the sales associate calls me miss he often just talks to me like I have no clue as to what I am doing verse a year a go when I walking there dressed like a guy; when I was a guy, they were more help full but still incompetent as to the knowledge of their products. Best part is they wont say "I don't know I have never used an 'Are duo'". Rather its like they glimpse some thing off the side of the box and say "Yea it does a microcontroller and should work with the components you bought if you buy extra solder and wire ties and this crimping tool for the wire wrap and electrical tape"  |O. Do they have some personal prejudice against pink platform heels? Actually its better this way because they leave me alone since any questions they answer are just bull shit upselling when they have no idea what you are doing. Like "might want to add a raspberry PI to that Arduino so you can interface it through this shield (shield was some weather station thing and not for the Pi at all)  :palm: "OK thanks I'm buying this for my boy friend and I wish he was here he could learn a lot from you.!" The boy friend comment usually makes them lose all interest and go away quickly. Other wise they fallow me around the store like little puppy dogs with Asperger's being awkward at female male mating rituals. Grow some muscles and about 6" taller get a real job and we can talk but until then enjoy you world of Warcraft.

You know what I mean...?  ;D

Have you ever had you shit fucked up by listening to them? Or sent your wife in only to find they sold her all kinds of unnecessary shit?

Or how about the "geek squad" where some pimply 19 yr old doesn't know the difference in RAM and SSD hard drive. Oh but he assured me he could turn my refund into a repair and send my week old lap top out in working order! PASS just give me my money back.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Ampera on May 04, 2018, 08:26:51 pm
Considering I am a man (at least for the moment) I'm not able to directly relate, but I can understand why people might do it.

It is, sad or not, a fact that there are less women in STEM, so normally people running shops try to cater to women as lower experiences just from statistics. It might be sad, and I personally would never assume it, but I can understand a shopkeeper's inclination to try to best guess someone's skill level to help drive a sale.

Perhaps an idea is to be overly specific and complicated about what you want from a shop to make it perfectly clear that you know your shit, and you don't need them to baby you. As someone who is quite young, I often get the same treatment, if not worse.

I wouldn't take it personal or offensively, but that's just me. I don't tend to blow things out of proportion that often. Life's too short.

One advantage of being someone who gets underestimated is that you can often get overblown praise for less work. Shitty C programs that I'm not that impressed with drives people nuts because a 16 year old is working with semi-complicated computer science on his own initiative. Then, when you really do something amazing, the cascade of impressed people is often faster and bigger.

Life is playing the cards your dealt. You can complain about what you have, but it's not changing, so you need to know how to use the advantages you have to put you above everybody else. Often the most resourceful person wins.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: rsjsouza on May 04, 2018, 08:41:30 pm
I was going to say a similar thing as TwoOfFive, adding that the people working the floor of these stores may not have a broad life experience. The chances that one uses pre-conceived notions of femininity is very high and unfortunately you have to pretty much take the high ground all the time. That and the fact that, given the demographics of people in STEM, probably makes them right more often than not.

At a reduced severity when compared to your case, a similar scenario happens when people find out I was born in a foreign country; a lot of pre-conceived notions are thrown at me and I try to take everything with an understanding mindset - in my case most of the times people mean well and simply lack the knowledge.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on May 04, 2018, 08:57:54 pm
Considering I am a man (at least for the moment) I'm not able to directly relate, but I can understand why people might do it.

It is, sad or not, a fact that there are less women in STEM, so normally people running shops try to cater to women as lower experiences just from statistics. It might be sad, and I personally would never assume it, but I can understand a shopkeeper's inclination to try to best guess someone's skill level to help drive a sale.

Perhaps an idea is to be overly specific and complicated about what you want from a shop to make it perfectly clear that you know your shit, and you don't need them to baby you. As someone who is quite young, I often get the same treatment, if not worse.

I wouldn't take it personal or offensively, but that's just me. I don't tend to blow things out of proportion that often. Life's too short.

One advantage of being someone who gets underestimated is that you can often get overblown praise for less work. Shitty C programs that I'm not that impressed with drives people nuts because a 16 year old is working with semi-complicated computer science on his own initiative. Then, when you really do something amazing, the cascade of impressed people is often faster and bigger.

Life is playing the cards your dealt. You can complain about what you have, but it's not changing, so you need to know how to use the advantages you have to put you above everybody else. Often the most resourceful person wins.

True when I was younger I did that a lot. Of if I was just being lazy I perform the task adequately. Or just feign ignorance to get out of things. Maybe I should be a femminazi! Just kidding those women need to know their place is in the kitchen. That's where my BF keeps my ass. :) After I make him dinner then I "satisfy him ;) " properly he lets me play with my toys. Some times he will buy me new ones too if I do a good enough job! I wish I lived in 1950's America. That's why people are not happy now adays the wife is all stressed with work and can't properly care for her husband's needs which come first to the women's..
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Ampera on May 04, 2018, 09:08:14 pm
While I admire your dedication to your opinion, keep in mind the same crime of SJWs and Feminazis who try to dismantle and ostracize people who enjoy such lifestyles is being committed by you yourself.
People, focusing on women in this case, need to have the right to life their life the way they want. The world will never be free of assumptions, so I believe people need to be able to deal with them, but there are many women who I believe would absolutely not be happy in the kitchen.

Live the life you want, if you can live it, but don't restrict people of the same goal. In the 1950's there would have been no such thing as a woman taken seriously in EE. Even the Apollo program that ran on the backs of women in assembly and computation, gave them no respect for their work until much later. You can believe that to be fine, and I can respect that, but there is a line to be drawn in insisting that is how the world should work above freedoms other people like.

You and I live in a first world where people are largely given the freedom to live the lives they wish to, and so long as we can keep that and respect that in whatever way doesn't hurt other people, we can remain free.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: james_s on May 04, 2018, 09:16:49 pm
For me was a learned experience, I found out at a young age that very, very few women seemed to be interested in tech. In fact I recall up through highschool and beyond a significant degree of hostility from girls toward those of us perceived to be nerds or geeks. Being into engineering just wasn't cool back then and learning when to shut up about it and form (or feign) an interest in "normal" stuff like music or sports greatly improved my relations with the other sex.

Because of that experience, I'm surprised whenever I encounter a woman who is into engineering for the same reason that I'm surprised when I'm doing laundry and find a $20 bill in a pocket, because most of the time that's not the case. These days it seems STEM is losing its stigma and more women are getting into it, I wish I could say the same about the frequency I find $20 bills.

Regarding 1950s America, remember that it was a very hostile place for transgendered people, not to mention we still had segregation, most women didn't have careers to speak of, even women voting was still a fairly new thing.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on May 04, 2018, 09:21:30 pm
While I admire your dedication to your opinion, keep in mind the same crime of SJWs and Feminazis who try to dismantle and ostracize people who enjoy such lifestyles is being committed by you yourself.
People, focusing on women in this case, need to have the right to life their life the way they want. The world will never be free of assumptions, so I believe people need to be able to deal with them, but there are many women who I believe would absolutely not be happy in the kitchen.

Live the life you want, if you can live it, but don't restrict people of the same goal. In the 1950's there would have been no such thing as a woman taken seriously in EE. Even the Apollo program that ran on the backs of women in assembly and computation, gave them no respect for their work until much later. You can believe that to be fine, and I can respect that, but there is a line to be drawn in insisting that is how the world should work above freedoms other people like.

You and I live in a first world where people are largely given the freedom to live the lives they wish to, and so long as we can keep that and respect that in whatever way doesn't hurt other people, we can remain free.

I am not stopping them but I'm just saying that's the role I'm happiest fulfilling in his house. I would be nothing without a strong husband just a lost soul with no one to please and get rewarded. Wouldn't you want a wife whos sole desire is to please pleasure and attended to you? Or a wife that's always barking orders and who hyphenates her last name to show you that shes only half your wife every time you say or write her name. She has her own bank account nd you have yours and contracts dictate your "love". I would rather live in my husbands house and let him handle all that. I would find that insulting and wonder the purpose of a marriage like that. Listening to your husband is the easiest part why do so many women have a problem with that? A man in a marriage like that isn't a strong man or a good leader. Its more like a business partnership.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Ampera on May 04, 2018, 09:34:56 pm
If I were to ever marry, I would want a partner who is as equal in the relationship as I am. I would want a friend, not a subordinate or a higher figure. There can be middle ground where we share aspects of our lives without bearing over each other in any way.

Personally, I am an introvert, and many EEs tend to be. I tend to enjoy more electronic forms of interaction, and while I can definitely engage in real life interaction, I don't see myself directly seeking a partner. If I find someone that I believe would make it worthwhile, it will happen. If I don't it won't. It's something I don't want to force, and need to have happen organically.

My personal life is complicated beyond the degree I am willing to communicate intricate details about it to just anyone, at least for the time being. Take that as you will. I don't mind talking about it, but there are just things that I can't specifically go into.

I think you fall into a bit of a fallacy in which you view others as only capable of the dynamics you see yourself capable of. What I mean by that is that some people don't need a Caesar nor a servant. They are happy living lives within their own wants, but as a level of equality instead of conforming to a specific higher status.

As for james_s's statement about 1950's America, it was a different time with different overreaching norms. We scoff at them today, but they were the case then. It was a hostile place for many types of people in the first American/European world. As the trend goes, the world becomes a nicer place as time goes on. Let's hope we just don't overrun the mark with some ideas and at some day in the future, hopefully one in our lifetimes, we can find a world where at least within ourselves, the issues of gender, colour, and status are all but distant memories to discard as we have done so much else.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: james_s on May 04, 2018, 09:39:31 pm
That's pretty much where I am. My partner and I are about as equal as possible, a relationship is as much a business partnership and friendship as anything else. She has her hobbies and I have mine, she has little interest in my electronics and I have little interest in her quilting but there is common ground on other activities. It works out well, even though I enjoy her companionship I also value time spent alone, absorbed in my own projects or hanging out with my guy friends. We have no rigid role assignments, I just do most of the stuff I'm better at while she does most of the stuff she's better at.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Ampera on May 04, 2018, 09:46:46 pm
That's pretty much where I am. My partner and I are about as equal as possible, a relationship is as much a business partnership and friendship as anything else. She has her hobbies and I have mine, she has little interest in my electronics and I have little interest in her quilting but there is common ground on other activities. It works out well, even though I enjoy her companionship I also value time spent alone, absorbed in my own projects or hanging out with my guy friends. We have no rigid role assignments, I just do most of the stuff I'm better at while she does most of the stuff she's better at.

I'd want someone who was very similar to me. I almost see it as being a requirement. Some people can handle and even love the diversity in their relationship, but it would have to be someone that is compatible with me as I am with myself. If I can never find someone like that, so be it, but it's my requirement.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Marco on May 04, 2018, 10:03:03 pm
Bayesian optimization, they're salesmen with little product knowledge ... their schtick and the people they use it on is optimized for that. I'm sure they'll target old people the same way. They might have some unjustified preconceptions, but the ones paid on commission have a lot of incentive to optimize their models.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GreyWoolfe on May 05, 2018, 02:25:51 am
I am not stopping them but I'm just saying that's the role I'm happiest fulfilling in his house. I would be nothing without a strong husband just a lost soul with no one to please and get rewarded. Wouldn't you want a wife whos sole desire is to please pleasure and attended to you? Or a wife that's always barking orders and who hyphenates her last name to show you that shes only half your wife every time you say or write her name. She has her own bank account nd you have yours and contracts dictate your "love". I would rather live in my husbands house and let him handle all that. I would find that insulting and wonder the purpose of a marriage like that. Listening to your husband is the easiest part why do so many women have a problem with that? A man in a marriage like that isn't a strong man or a good leader. Its more like a business partnership.

Beamin, I absolutely would not want a wife like you.  I mean no insult, but I did have one like you.  Life was great until life threw me a serious curve ball and 3 days before our 9th anniversary, she threw me out and took up with the asshat that she was cheating on me with.  All because I could not, at that point, provide the security she wanted.  Fast forward 14 years and I spent most of them not even dating as I was done with women and I was going to stay a confirmed bachelor, enjoying my friends and my ham radio hobby.  I ended up getting married again to a woman who didn't need to be married to me but who wanted to be married to me.  At one point, I went through a 4 year bout of severe depression that seriously rocked our marriage.  Unlike the first one, she didn't run away when things were tough and those tough times lasted a total of 6 years.  Now, our marriage is stronger than ever.  There is no subservience on her part nor would I want it that way.  We are 100% committed to each other and taking care of each other.  We cook/clean together, be domestic together.  As far as intimacy, her needs are taken care of first, which she is fully into, though I never object if she wants to go cowgirl, which is quite frequent! >:D  Everything is in our names because we wanted it that way.  I didn't ask her to take my last name, that was her choice. We just celebrated 13 years last month and things just keep getting better every day because we are fully and equally committed to each other.  At the risk of giving offense to a certain group of people, I am truly blessed, grateful and thankful to have my wife at my side, not in front of me or in back of me, next to me where she belongs.

The point I am getting to with my rambling, no one can make you happy.  Only you can make you happy.  Others can contribute but the bottom line, your happiness in on you.  Don't rely on pleasing others to get your own pleasure, it won't work.  You won't be a lost soul without a strong husband but don't doubt for a minute that he can't be a lost soul without a strong you.  Married or not, if you have a life partner, you should both be in it 100% equally.  There is not top or bottom unless that is your thing.   By the way, I bought her the house when we were engaged. ;D
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: NiHaoMike on May 05, 2018, 02:28:02 am
There's also the stereotype that women are weak. A friend of mine who used to do HVAC service made quite a scene at a HVAC parts store once when she entered the store carrying a broken down central A/C compressor (typically 50-70lbs) and setting it on the counter in order to get the right replacement. Although to be fair, very few have ever seen a young girl doing HVAC work.

And then there's Rinoa Super-Genius who is known around here as one of the strongest women who's into electronics.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Bud on May 05, 2018, 03:00:32 am
Answering the original question why- because 99.999% of girls do not understand electronics.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: John B on May 05, 2018, 03:16:44 am

I am not stopping them but I'm just saying that's the role I'm happiest fulfilling in his house. I would be nothing without a strong husband just a lost soul with no one to please and get rewarded. Wouldn't you want a wife whos sole desire is to please pleasure and attended to you?

Sounds clingy AF TBH.

Or a wife that's always barking orders and who hyphenates her last name to show you that shes only half your wife every time you say or write her name. She has her own bank account nd you have yours and contracts dictate your "love".

Or options 3 through infinity. People come in all varieties that don't fit on a Feminist-chauvinist to tradcon spectrum. But I get the impetus behind what you're doing. Some women use the carrot, some use the stick.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: @rt on May 05, 2018, 03:36:59 am
Is this Fran?
I can’t say I’ve had the same experience as both male & female :D

I expect a sales assistant to know what things are called, know where they are, and ring up a total on a register. That’s all.
If they were EEs they wouldn’t be sales assistants.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Rerouter on May 05, 2018, 04:02:30 am
Another male chiming in.

I cannot easily say how my approach would be veiwed from the outside, but when someone asks me for help, and I lack any kind of baseline of there knowledge, I tend to begin with the most common concepts of the topic, e.g. for a computer, is it a PC or a Mac?

Generally there reply clues me in to what they know, and i can expand from there on a common denominator level of knowledge, howevere I suspect this may sometimes come across condesending.

For me, there was no girls in the electronics class through my high school, and 3 in engineering, I would sit near them maimly because in my head was the thought "help them so they stay", but only when they asked.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: TerraHertz on May 05, 2018, 04:07:51 am
Because people take the shortcut of acting on the basis of experienced past averages, rather than putting potentially a lot of effort into evaluating each new situation from scratch. Aka they apply stereotypes.

And as Bud mentioned, 99.999% of girls do not understand electronics. Sad but true.

Stereotyping is a useful tool. It's only real problem arises when one refuses to modify behavior in specific instances when it becomes clear the stereotype does not apply. Or worse, deliberately avoiding any possibility of discovering it does not apply.

Beamin, have you considered wearing a lapel badge that says "I'm an engineer'. Hold my beer." Or something like that.
Cut out that initial interval of irritating misconception.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: jpanhalt on May 05, 2018, 04:14:46 am
I think you are imagining something that doesn't exist.  Maybe it is just your own identity insecurity.

I live in an area where there is both a MicroCenter and Best Buy within a few blocks of each other.   I usually go to MicroCenter and the very best help there is (actually was*) a woman.  On occasion, if she wasn't there, I would find out when she would be and return then. 

*I had been her regular client of hers for almost 20 years.  On a visit late last year, I asked for her and learned that she had had a serious accident and could no longer work. 
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: amyk on May 05, 2018, 04:24:28 am
It seems to be a largely western phenomenon. In former USSR and China today, female EEs are not unusual.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: NiHaoMike on May 05, 2018, 05:06:31 am
It seems to be a largely western phenomenon. In former USSR and China today, female EEs are not unusual.
In the videos where Naomi Wu was shopping for parts for her projects, she seemed to be regarded as "just another person", except obviously by those who recognized her as a celebrity. Would be interesting to see if other female engineers there are treated the same way.
And as Bud mentioned, 99.999% of girls do not understand electronics. Sad but true.
Very location dependent - in Northern California, the percentage of "tech illiterate" of either gender would be way lower.

It's also worth noting that smart hobbyists (in the US, at least) rarely buy electronics from physical stores nowadays because online is usually cheaper. The few times I do go to a store for those sorts of stuff are because a sale makes the items cheaper than online, I needed those items in a hurry, or I actually needed to see the items in detail to check if they're really the right ones.

The one time I went to Walmart to get some cheap smartphones (on sale), I was buying three and the cashier was questioning why because I looked too young to have a child old enough to use a smartphone. My intent was to use them for mining, but since I didn't want to reveal that ("experimental" altcoin quickly ramping in profitability), I simply answered by saying that I'm a programmer and that I use the phones to run apps.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: JPortici on May 05, 2018, 07:01:24 am
Is this Fran?
I can’t say I’ve had the same experience as both male & female :D

I expect a sales assistant to know what things are called, know where they are, and ring up a total on a register. That’s all.
If they were EEs they wouldn’t be sales assistants.

when i did that job i still was an Electronics Enthusiast :P as many others i knew.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: @rt on May 05, 2018, 07:07:42 am
Electronics enthusiasts are plenty at our local retail (Jaycar Australia), but can’t necessarily work in EE, or any related discipline.

Jaycar Electronics, also being Dave’s local electronics retail with a store front, I vote Dave make a video investigating this phenomenon :D

Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: TerraHertz on May 05, 2018, 07:39:08 am
Dave will look pretty funny in drag.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Brumby on May 05, 2018, 07:43:34 am
Oh - you had to go there.   :palm:

There's an image of which I hope to never be reminded.   :scared:
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: JPortici on May 05, 2018, 07:59:03 am
Electronics enthusiasts are plenty at our local retail (Jaycar Australia), but can’t necessarily work in EE, or any related discipline.

and i don't work there anymore :)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: German_EE on May 05, 2018, 08:00:52 am
I know of two female radio amateurs who are far better electronics engineers than I am:

http://www.myhamshack.com/AA4HA/ (http://www.myhamshack.com/AA4HA/)

https://soldersmoke.blogspot.de/2016/02/design-wisdom-from-allison-kb1gmx.html (https://soldersmoke.blogspot.de/2016/02/design-wisdom-from-allison-kb1gmx.html)

Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: dmills on May 05, 2018, 12:15:48 pm
Those two are pretty hardcore.

99% of PEOPLE do not understand electronics, the issue is probably largely cultural, but what can you do?

I think it is probably some mixture of sales types playing the numbers and the sales staff typically being young men (With all that that often implies) who do not perhaps have much experience with women and especially with the notion that a woman can be every bit as competent as a man at this stuff.

Got to be really aggravating to deal with day in, day out however, and I am not too sure there is really much you can do about it, I have friends who say the car parts place can also be aggravating this way, for the same reason.

Regards, Dan.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: NiHaoMike on May 05, 2018, 02:02:47 pm
I know of two female radio amateurs who are far better electronics engineers than I am:

http://www.myhamshack.com/AA4HA/ (http://www.myhamshack.com/AA4HA/)

https://soldersmoke.blogspot.de/2016/02/design-wisdom-from-allison-kb1gmx.html (https://soldersmoke.blogspot.de/2016/02/design-wisdom-from-allison-kb1gmx.html)
Jeri Ellsworth also recently got into amateur radio.
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QST/This%20Month%20in%20QST/January2017/Ellsworth%20free%20online%20version.pdf (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QST/This%20Month%20in%20QST/January2017/Ellsworth%20free%20online%20version.pdf)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Zero999 on May 05, 2018, 08:36:45 pm
I'm sure many of you here can relate to that...  :-DD

But I noticed when I walk into places like micro center and the sales associate calls me miss he often just talks to me like I have no clue as to what I am doing verse a year a go when I walking there dressed like a guy; when I was a guy, they were more help full but still incompetent as to the knowledge of their products.
Well that must be frustrating, but fortunately you're allowed to be transgender now.
I wish I lived in 1950's America. That's why people are not happy now adays the wife is all stressed with work and can't properly care for her husband's needs which come first to the women's..
Back then people like you would have been labelled, a faggot, queer, poof etc. beaten up and thrown in jail.

Which would you prefer?

Unfortunately people are biased. I've often wondered what sort of reaction I'd get if I went out in town dressed as a women, or just changed the colour of my skin? I've never dared to do it, especially as I wouldn't want someone I know recognising me, but it would be interesting. I'd also wonder what would happen if I went out blacked up, got arrested for no reason, then the police discovered I'm really white.

It would interest me even more if I could travel back in time and compare how people treated me if I were black, compared to being white, but of course that's impossible.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: NiHaoMike on May 05, 2018, 09:33:42 pm
It's sad when girls have to disguise themselves as guys in order to avoid the negative stereotypes. I remember reading (not sure if true or not) that Naomi once used an online name that suggested she was a guy or at least what everyone assumed to be a guy.

It's also interesting to note that my friend who used to do HVAC service rarely had problems with gender bias, only like one or two instances of the customer insisting the company send "an old and experienced guy". I suppose that when it's over 100 with high humidity outside, customers just want their A/C to be working ASAP...
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: vk6zgo on May 06, 2018, 02:26:29 am
I know of two female radio amateurs who are far better electronics engineers than I am:

http://www.myhamshack.com/AA4HA/ (http://www.myhamshack.com/AA4HA/)

https://soldersmoke.blogspot.de/2016/02/design-wisdom-from-allison-kb1gmx.html (https://soldersmoke.blogspot.de/2016/02/design-wisdom-from-allison-kb1gmx.html)
Another very knowledgeable lady is our very own Sue, AF6LJ.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: VK3DRB on May 06, 2018, 03:20:59 am
In Australia, men prefer Weller and women prefer Wella. But assume nothing. Some sales dude assuming a woman does not know much about electronics is a bit like Starbucks calling in the cops on two "African Americans" because they entered the store and sat down without buying a coffee is pure discrimination on an individual.

The message is pretty powerful...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwWOabcpThg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwWOabcpThg)



Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: brucehoult on May 06, 2018, 07:59:40 am
You might be interested to know that when I (a 50+ yr old compiler engineer) walk into an electronics shop, if there is a young woman working there, I always go to her for any questions or advice, not the guys.

If a woman is putting herself into that environment you can be pretty sure she's genuinely interested in the subject and actually knows something about it. Most of the guys are just faking it and passing through and have an inflated idea of their own knowledge.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: jpanhalt on May 06, 2018, 08:29:01 am
You might be interested to know that when I (a 50+ yr old compiler engineer) walk into an electronics shop, if there is a young woman working there, I always go to her for any questions or advice, not the guys.

If a woman is putting herself into that environment you can be pretty sure she's genuinely interested in the subject and actually knows something about it. Most of the guys are just faking it and passing through and have an inflated idea of their own knowledge.

Yep, 50+ year old geek out fishing needs to keep his line wet.  Good advice.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: brucehoult on May 06, 2018, 09:12:42 am
You might be interested to know that when I (a 50+ yr old compiler engineer) walk into an electronics shop, if there is a young woman working there, I always go to her for any questions or advice, not the guys.

If a woman is putting herself into that environment you can be pretty sure she's genuinely interested in the subject and actually knows something about it. Most of the guys are just faking it and passing through and have an inflated idea of their own knowledge.

Yep, 50+ year old geek out fishing needs to keep his line wet.  Good advice.

Ahahahaha. You clearly haven't seen my wife :p
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Zero999 on May 06, 2018, 11:17:25 am
In Australia, men prefer Weller and women prefer Wella. But assume nothing. Some sales dude assuming a woman does not know much about electronics is a bit like Starbucks calling in the cops on two "African Americans" because they entered the store and sat down without buying a coffee is pure discrimination on an individual.

The message is pretty powerful...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwWOabcpThg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwWOabcpThg)
Interesting video.

At first it made be laugh, not because I find being abusive to people funny, but because I couldn't believe someone could be that bigoted, then it brought tears to my eyes when I saw people stand up to the bigotry.

I'm not surprised the majority of people did nothing. It's often the safest thing to do and whilst I don't condone it, I understand why
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: medical-nerd on May 06, 2018, 06:25:37 pm
Hiya

Unfortunately stereotypes exist in every area. Its not unusual to have a female doctor - males and females train together and are treated by each other during training as equals unless cultural differences overwhelm common sense. In postgraduate training the stereotypes start - between medicine and surgery and within subspecialisation. How often do you see a female surgeon - unless it is in ophthalmic or obstetric surgery?

Cheers
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Canis Dirus Leidy on May 06, 2018, 08:41:47 pm
It seems to be a largely western phenomenon. In former USSR and China today, female EEs are not unusual.
Well, can't say about China, but in USSR the involvement of women in the industry and public activities has been officially promoted from the very beginning:
(https://i.imgur.com/Kqg6iBnm.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Kqg6iBn.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/hUgURZFm.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/hUgURZF.jpg)

P.S. I can't name exact figures, but during my student times (late 90s - early 2000s) the ratio of guys and girls was, if not equal, then close to that. And the woman teaching classes like "Electrical machines" or "(Electrical) Networks analyzing" has not seemed to be something amazing.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 06, 2018, 08:48:25 pm
It's not just a boy versus girl thing. I get approached quite differently sometimes when I'm in my coveralls than when I'm in a suit. People need stereotypes to make some sense of the world. Unfortunately that means classifying people wrongly regularly, but starting with a blank slate every time you meet someone new is apparently not doable for the human brain.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: nctnico on May 06, 2018, 09:02:32 pm
It's not just a boy versus girl thing. I get approached quite differently sometimes when I'm in my coveralls than when I'm in a suit. People need stereotypes to make some sense of the world. Unfortunately that means classifying people wrongly regularly, but starting with a blank slate every time you meet someone new is apparently not doable for the human brain.
I agree. Most women in technical jobs have technical outfits. The famous ones like Micah and Jeri all wear checkered wood-chopper button up shirts and so have the women in technical jobs I have met so far. Or they wear some kind of T-shirt.  The pink platform heels Beamin was wearing don't fit in that picture.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Nominal Animal on May 06, 2018, 10:17:52 pm
I'd separate the encounters into two (or three) categories.

One is when a salesperson approaches you, or you ask somebody you do not know for a hand for a second, and they make an incorrect assumption of the situation.  You could be there with a buddy, and they assume you are a couple; or they could assume that because you look a certain way, you don't know much about a specific field. While this is annoying/irritating, it means no harm, because the assumption was made without any proper information, only appearance, and the underlying intent is just to help.

(Even as a male, I do encounter this quite often personally. As a coping mechanism, I usually describe my problem with a clear indicator of my knowledge level in the subject embedded. For example, if I am looking for a specific electronic component, I might say I need it for the first PCB I've designed myself, or that I do not yet have a hot-air soldering station, only a temperature-controlled one that I'm quite comfortable with; or if I am looking for a specific type of paint, I might mention paints and varnishes I've successfully used in the past. I describe the problem first; include clear signs of my knowledge level, or even state it outright; and only then describe the solution I think should work and need help with, and listen to their suggestions. This seems to work for me, although I do feel I'm TMI!ing all the time.)

The other is when a person ignores what you say, and instead go solely based on their assumptions.

That is absolutely infuriating, and I've encountered that personally from all sorts of people, from doctors to winos on the street.  Not too often, though.  There seem to be two groups of such people: the truly stupid ones (who simply cannot fathom the situation, and simply go by their instincts, without a rational thought ever crossing their mind) who I don't think can be really categorized as sentient beings; and those who are completely uninsterested in you, your problem, or helping you in any way, but need something out of you, even if it is just for you to leave.  If they are paid to help you, then they belong to the group of people who should be fired, and you should feel free to completely avoid, ignore, and denigrate them as much as you like.  The two groups overlap when people are overworked or just too tired to function well, in which case be gentle.

I do not want the aforementioned categories mixed, because I do feel the first category is basically innocent (even if bigoted or prejudiced or presumptive, it is not like they knew anything about me except my appearance); the stupid and the overworked cannot help themselves; and only the self-centered ones do deserve hard push-back on their behaviour.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: gildasd on May 06, 2018, 10:38:11 pm
It's not just a boy versus girl thing. I get approached quite differently sometimes when I'm in my coveralls than when I'm in a suit. People need stereotypes to make some sense of the world. Unfortunately that means classifying people wrongly regularly, but starting with a blank slate every time you meet someone new is apparently not doable for the human brain.
I agree. Most women in technical jobs have technical outfits. The famous ones like Micah and Jeri all wear checkered wood-chopper button up shirts and so have the women in technical jobs I have met so far. Or they wear some kind of T-shirt.  The pink platform heels Beamin was wearing don't fit in that picture.
True.
I’m a man, but get treated like a homegamer if I walk into a pro hardware store in sneaker n’ Tshirt. If I go to the same place in engineering company overalls, safety glasses on my head, worse for wear hard shoes and a cloud of dust following me... They don’t even try to bullshit, I get the good stuff, they mark it down without asking and i’m out in minutes.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: james_s on May 07, 2018, 12:54:28 am
I agree. Most women in technical jobs have technical outfits. The famous ones like Micah and Jeri all wear checkered wood-chopper button up shirts and so have the women in technical jobs I have met so far. Or they wear some kind of T-shirt.  The pink platform heels Beamin was wearing don't fit in that picture.

In my last job I worked with an absolutely brilliant older woman who is a software engineer, she was more often than not wearing jeans and frumpy sweaters with cats on them.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: brucehoult on May 07, 2018, 01:55:19 am
It seems to be a largely western phenomenon. In former USSR and China today, female EEs are not unusual.
Well, can't say about China, but in USSR the involvement of women in the industry and public activities has been officially promoted from the very beginning

My 46 year old wife is from Russia. She was a computer programmer for a few years before she went back to university to do graphic design. Her 70 year old mother was a programmer too.

Quote
P.S. I can't name exact figures, but during my student times (late 90s - early 2000s) the ratio of guys and girls was, if not equal, then close to that.

At university in New Zealand in the early 1980s my computer science classes were about 40% females, 60% males. My math classes were the opposite.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: JPortici on May 07, 2018, 09:54:01 am
You might be interested to know that when I (a 50+ yr old compiler engineer) walk into an electronics shop, if there is a young woman working there, I always go to her for any questions or advice, not the guys.

If a woman is putting herself into that environment you can be pretty sure she's genuinely interested in the subject and actually knows something about it. Most of the guys are just faking it and passing through and have an inflated idea of their own knowledge.


or is just another sale rep, as almost every rep i worked with, they knew just enough they needed to do their job. some had interest in the things they were selling and knew a bit more, some didn't
or may be the shop's owner daughter (in my local version of radioshack, I once asked but they weren't hiring. a week later there was a new girl there, clueless about anything.. electronics and sales.)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: EEVblog on May 07, 2018, 10:39:13 am
It's not just a boy versus girl thing. I get approached quite differently sometimes when I'm in my coveralls than when I'm in a suit. People need stereotypes to make some sense of the world. Unfortunately that means classifying people wrongly regularly, but starting with a blank slate every time you meet someone new is apparently not doable for the human brain.

It's doable, but most likely people learn that stereotypes give you a better first shot at something, less time wasted etc.
e.g. if I'm at the hardware store and I need to ask for something technical and I have the choice of approaching the young 18yo kid or the 60yo grey beard with the hand that look like he's straight out the shed, I'm going for the grey beard. The odds are simply much greater that I'll get the answer I want with minimal time wasted.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Miyuki on May 07, 2018, 11:08:53 am
From my experience, I know 3 situations:
- Oh a woman she knows nothing, but carry her a heavy stuff
- Shock, confusion, admire
- They think Im a young boy  ::) let them this way it is easier for booth sides
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Psi on May 07, 2018, 12:43:54 pm
When you meet someone for the first time your subconscious brain instantly creates a 'dynamic model' of that person based on all the info it currently has available.
Their looks, clothes, the environment they're in etc.. every tiny piece of info, all used.

It then uses this internal dynamic model of the person to predict everything it doesn't know about them.

This all takes like a millisecond, now your brain thinks it knows this person. (Until more info is available to improve the dynamic model)

It cannot easily tell what info is fact and what is invented.

Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: VK3DRB on May 07, 2018, 01:01:13 pm
Two stories: the first one happened about a month ago; the second one about 8 years ago.

I was at at an RF semiconductor seminar on some leading edge technology recently. At lunchtime, I noticed many nerds, geeks and dags chatting to their colleagues or new acquaintances. I also noticed a young Muslim woman in a hijab there standing on her own, being ignored by all and sundry. Sure she looked like a fish out of water, but I went up to her and introduced myself and we had a chat. It turned out she is a delightful young electronics engineer doing her Masters Degree in microwave RF technology, loves electronics and is working as an intern at a well known electronics company. She is now on my Linked-In account and I asked her to call me when she has graduated in case we need another engineer in satellite communications :-+.

An acquaintance of mine is an extremely wealthy entrepreneur. But he is a down to earth Aussie who wore a blue singlet and shorts into some Melbourne Mercedes dealerships to test drive a high end sports car. He was virtually shown the door at two dealerships after he asked for a test drive. He went to a third dealership who treated him with respect and let him test drive the car. After he finished the test drive, the bloke ordered TWO - one for his brother and one for him - a half million dollar sale. The word had got around and the first dealer called him after he heard of the big sale, saying "Sorry we were busy but if you ever want sell, please call us to get a good deal." He promptly told that dealer where he can go in rather colourful language :clap:.

Assume nothing, expect anything.


Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Iwanushka on May 07, 2018, 05:07:37 pm
An acquaintance of mine is an extremely wealthy entrepreneur. But he is a down to earth Aussie who wore a blue singlet and shorts into some Melbourne Mercedes dealerships to test drive a high end sports car. He was virtually shown the door at two dealerships after he asked for a test drive. He went to a third dealership who treated him with respect and let him test drive the car. After he finished the test drive, the bloke ordered TWO - one for his brother and one for him - a half million dollar sale. The word had got around and the first dealer called him after he heard of the big sale, saying "Sorry we were busy but if you ever want sell, please call us to get a good deal." He promptly told that dealer where he can go in rather colourful language :clap:.

Assume nothing, expect anything.

I always wear something like that when I go the bank, it's quite funny how they look at you until they see your account - world just flips over...
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: langwadt on May 07, 2018, 05:30:22 pm
Hiya

Unfortunately stereotypes exist in every area. Its not unusual to have a female doctor - males and females train together and are treated by each other during training as equals unless cultural differences overwhelm common sense. In postgraduate training the stereotypes start - between medicine and surgery and within subspecialisation. How often do you see a female surgeon - unless it is in ophthalmic or obstetric surgery?

maybe they are just not interested. Males and females are different and that is just fine
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: rrinker on May 07, 2018, 05:52:21 pm
 It's not just electronics, or high tech fields. My ex wife has degrees in both chemistry and biology. At one time, we were both looking for cars. She's as much of a car person as I am - her first car was an MG Midget, which she took care of herself - and anyone who knows those older British cars know they need a lot of TLC to keep going. With her first husband she had a fully restored show winning 1956 Chevy. She did at LEAST as much work on it as he did. So since we worked in different areas, I went to the dealer nearest me, and she went to the one nearest her. The salesman I got linked with took me out driving, pointing out all the performance features and so forth. When I compared notes with my ex, she said most of the time while out test driving, her salesman kept pointing out all the convenience and comfort features, like the cupholders, the link for garage door openers, that sort of thing.
 Now my current GF, she's not really into cars at all. She doesn't even like mine, says it rides too rough. She is the type who that previous salesman was geared for with a female customer. But she also knows that, so when she recently bought a new car, I was along and she had me drive it as well to see what I thought, before making any sort of commitment.
 She also has no clue what 99% of the stuff on my electronics bench is, or what half the things she got me off my Christmas wish list were for. But that's ok, too. She's a million times more artistic than I ever could be.

Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GreyWoolfe on May 07, 2018, 07:30:50 pm
She also has no clue what 99% of the stuff on my electronics bench is, or what half the things she got me off my Christmas wish list were for. But that's ok, too.

SWIMBO is the same way though she does know what a soldering iron looks like.  Everything else, not so much.  On the top shelf of my bench is the gigabit switch with the MTA and router sitting on it.  Her name for all of that?  Blinky sh!t.  She tells everyone that with all of the crap (her words) in my office, I am probably sitting there contacting Jupiter.  I just  ;D
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on May 18, 2018, 10:10:24 pm
In Australia, men prefer Weller and women prefer Wella. But assume nothing. Some sales dude assuming a woman does not know much about electronics is a bit like Starbucks calling in the cops on two "African Americans" because they entered the store and sat down without buying a coffee is pure discrimination on an individual.

The message is pretty powerful...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwWOabcpThg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwWOabcpThg)

That is why I don't live in  the south or even go too far into the redneck parts of the state. You don't realize you have white male privilege until you don't have it any more.

Being small/ not having muscles anymore I can't fight or really do anything and if I have to call the cops I want to make sure they are on my side and they won't be if they are rednecks, they are actually a bigger threat.

But on the plus side I found if I'm feeling lazy and don't feel like fixing/doing something I can pretend I'm dizzy "Like... I totally like don't get it. Can you help?" And sometimes sex (specifically pink lip gloss and high heels for some reason) sells. Some guys have an obsession with transwomen because they have never met one or even less likely dated one.

I always find ways to turn disadvantages into advantages so in the mean time I can handle people thinking I don't get it. Always easy to impress someone when their expectations are already low.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out when I finish college and try to get a job in the tech sector. I used to think I had to get a job like that because the total customer/people interaction was low. Now I feel that was such a ridiculous thought and I should never hide who I am or look/pretend I'm 100% female. I takes a lot of balls to hide your balls under a skirt or have them chopped off!  :-DD

Does anyone here have a wife or female family that works in tech?
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: brucehoult on May 19, 2018, 02:41:23 am
Does anyone here have a wife or female family that works in tech?

Sure.

My wife (46 yrs old) did a 6 year Master's degree in computer programming, and worked as a programmer then project leader for a while. But then she went back and did another 6 year Master's in Graphic Design and works in that now. Her 70 yr old mother was also a computer programmer, using Ada in Russia back in the 80s.

My sister did a mechanical engineering degree, paid for my the RNZAF, and then worked on A4 Skyhawk engines, then on the "Kahu" project to upgrade the A4's with new wings and F/A-18 avionics, and then on another project to upgrade C130s (also with new wings and other stuff).

A former gf (in 2005) was a whiz at configuring Linux kernels and drivers to get Linux working on all kinds of weird notebook computers. She also liked to make KDE pretty and wrote KDE documentation and published articles in places such as linuxjournal.com.

The gf before that was a classical pianist, but in the time we were together (eight years) she learned enough computer programming that we both got H-1B visas in 2001 to work as Java programmers in the same company in Chicago.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Echo88 on May 19, 2018, 08:02:52 pm
How can someone criticize people in hardware-shops as "people with asperger, who are too small, without muscles and dont have a real job" and then bitch about not be taken seriously as a woman interested in tech, not realizing that you also generalized about people?

Sorry, but would it be the other way around "Im a man in a women-shoe-department and want to buy shoes for my girl, but those sales-women dont take me serious. Must be because theyre all fat and ugly bitches, which id never fuck. You know what i mean?!  ;D " then this thread would be closed instantly by the moderators.

Those dudes surely dont get paid much and cant answer your arduino or other hardware-questions, but that doesnt mean its okay to despise them.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on June 18, 2018, 01:21:34 pm
Does anyone here have a wife or female family that works in tech?

Sure.

My wife (46 yrs old) did a 6 year Master's degree in computer programming, and worked as a programmer then project leader for a while. But then she went back and did another 6 year Master's in Graphic Design and works in that now. Her 70 yr old mother was also a computer programmer, using Ada in Russia back in the 80s.

My sister did a mechanical engineering degree, paid for my the RNZAF, and then worked on A4 Skyhawk engines, then on the "Kahu" project to upgrade the A4's with new wings and F/A-18 avionics, and then on another project to upgrade C130s (also with new wings and other stuff).

A former gf (in 2005) was a whiz at configuring Linux kernels and drivers to get Linux working on all kinds of weird notebook computers. She also liked to make KDE pretty and wrote KDE documentation and published articles in places such as linuxjournal.com.

The gf before that was a classical pianist, but in the time we were together (eight years) she learned enough computer programming that we both got H-1B visas in 2001 to work as Java programmers in the same company in Chicago.


Beside myself the women in my family tend to run the people side of the husband/wife business. Probably everyone here has used some sort of technology my family invented possibly even right now. They are the 1% hopefully I'll be joining them in a few years. 99%  sucks it does when you grew up 1%. But it taught me how to be charitable and less is more. So I won't be an asshole 1%er.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Echo88 on June 18, 2018, 08:43:22 pm
May is ask what technology your family has invented?
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: coppice on June 18, 2018, 09:32:17 pm
It seems to be a largely western phenomenon. In former USSR and China today, female EEs are not unusual.
I don't know about Russia, but in China female EEs are rare. A number of Chinese women study electronics, but they go into sales and marketing. I see less women doing actual engineering work in China than in the US. If you interact technically with someone in China it will often be a woman, because a lot of women study English to reasonable standard. They will be passing on any non-trivial questions to a man in most cases.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GlennSprigg on June 21, 2018, 01:55:36 pm
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, between a girl/woman who knows a 'Company' inside-out, and where all the parts
are stored, (which I've often found to be GREATLY helpful), and a girl/woman who is 'trained' electronically.
If they 'are' electronically/technically trained, then that's GREAT, and Kudos to them, seriously !!!!

However, experience has shown that of the THOUSANDS of phone calls I have made, for numerous technical
Companies, a lot of time has been wasted speaking to the wrong person..... And that does NOT mean women.
If I said..... "Have you got the 24v Solenoid, brand 'XYZ', shown as Model 'SL234' in your catalog"......
then I expect, & find, that almost 100% of company females will know exactly what I mean, from their computer!

However... if I say something like......
"Your model ABC123 has an Impedance that is too low.....  can you suggest an alternative".......
Usually after a 5 sec pause, I hear the likes of......
"Oh...  let me put you through to someone who might know"......
And that's sort of normal & expected, except when sometimes the person keeps you on the line for 1/4 hour,
talking back & forward, before finally connecting you to someone else.....
I don't BLAME them for not knowing !!! but put me through !!!  :-)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Eka on June 21, 2018, 06:39:26 pm
Does anyone here have a wife or female family that works in tech?
My SIL is a radar tracking software guru working at a major radar research lab.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: CopperCone on June 21, 2018, 10:34:44 pm
i always wonder if someones dress obsession is going to result in ghost in the shell thermoptical camouflage, i kind of see like in my head some woman with all those dynamics figured out in her head that learns FPGA and then the Illuminati reveal music plays and everyone is running around invisible, or maybe some kind of elastic muscle suit thing that can stretch all the fibers in the right places
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: apblog on June 22, 2018, 12:54:03 am

Does anyone here have a wife or female family that works in tech?

My mom invented a new category of optical image sensors in the 70s, and she physically made them herself in the lab. And made other breakthroughs that I won’t be specific about here. She knew the inner workings of semiconductor physics better than most EEs.

She never got her college degree either. She worked her way up from secretary to scientist by studying on her own and taking night classes.

And she did this starting in the 60s with all the men trying to keep her down and steal credit for her work.

So yeah, never underestimate a woman.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: nidlaX on June 22, 2018, 08:29:09 am
There's an image of which I hope to never be reminded.   :scared:
REMINDED??? :scared: :scared: :scared:
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: ebastler on June 22, 2018, 08:57:33 am
i always wonder if someones dress obsession is going to result in ghost in the shell thermoptical camouflage, i kind of see like in my head some woman with all those dynamics figured out in her head that learns FPGA and then the Illuminati reveal music plays and everyone is running around invisible, or maybe some kind of elastic muscle suit thing that can stretch all the fibers in the right places

 :-//

That is one strange cascade of associations (to me). You must have been watching different movies than me, or been consuming different recreational substances.  ::)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: cowasaki on June 23, 2018, 07:43:57 am
In a thread about stereotyping I'm going to do just that....

If the person you walk up to in <insert electronic component shop> really knows his stuff then WHY would he or she work in an electronic component shop when the knowledge he or she has would get a far higher paying job elsewhere?

The fact is that these shops pay little more than minimum wage and so the people working there seldom know very much at all.  Yes there are exceptions to that and I'm sure that there are many of them BUT why would you.  I've been in a certain electronics retailer and been waiting for the sales person (because I needed more of a certain component than I could see) and he was telling someone something that was plainly wrong.  I started laughing to which the sales person said "that's rude".  I said that I couldn't help it but he plainly had no idea what he was talking about and told the person what the sales person should have done.  I felt bad for the sales person but it doesn't change the fact that after the internet these shops are barely profitable so can't get the staff they really should because they can't pay enough.  Years ago I could need a specific IC or something like that and would go to the electronics shop where I would buy maybe 5 because I would use the others.  Now I would place an order for five on the internet and get then, probably, next day anyway.  If I really did need it that day I would buy one and place an order on the internet (I like to have spares of cheap components just in case).

As for the transgender/female/male issue we are often talking about young lads (I'm not stereotyping here but almost all the sales staff in these shops ARE young lads).  Now young lads may never have even seen someone who is transgender and may genuinely feel unable to deal with the situation.  If, as a girl, you genuinely do not look transgender then maybe the sales person has little experience dealing with girls!  I would go into the local Maplin, occasionally, with my daughter and the staff (all lads from 16-22) would follow her round like lost puppies!

Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Raj on June 23, 2018, 09:11:06 am
To me,everyone is dumb until I find a clue,proving they aren't.
But let me tell you,there are jokes about how,theres no girls in IIT colleges.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 23, 2018, 11:24:24 am
It also depends on culture. In my country Beta interested women are rare, but change is slowly happening.
We had some Beta graduated women join ten years ago and talking to them it seemed like it was very common in Spain. So I guess its also culturally forced.
The other weird thing where my wife really gets upset about is that most women in our country work less than 24 hrs a week. It looks like they do their job on the side.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GlennSprigg on June 23, 2018, 02:58:59 pm
I love when Women get technical !,  Seriously !!!!!
It's such a pleasant change from my 'ex'......
I'm an 'Avid' follower of 'Fran Blanche' on Youtube......
Check her out here, and her HUNDREDS of posts!!!!!........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwCXhwq6OHU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwCXhwq6OHU)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 23, 2018, 03:04:52 pm
Opposites attract, if I look around in my technicall colleagues and friends department the best matches are nurses / school teachers or other nurturing professions.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Seekonk on June 23, 2018, 03:38:55 pm
Are you sure it really isn't that men don't know how to talk to women about anything?
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 23, 2018, 03:41:59 pm
or vice versa, why do only the man have to adapt?
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GreyWoolfe on June 23, 2018, 03:55:08 pm
Are you sure it really isn't that men don't know how to talk to women about anything?

or vice versa, why do only the man have to adapt?

Mrs. GreyWoolfe and I communicate very well together, thank you.  However, it may be the fact that we have 5 marriages between us and have learned (maybe the hard way) how important communication is.  Our jobs also help.  She is a medical assistant and I am a field service tech working with government agencies.  Proper, professional and respectful communications is essential.  We have both been at it long enough that that type of communications bleeds over into everyday life.  Unlike Raj, it seems, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first.  It is up to you to prove that I should or shouldn't continue.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Bud on June 23, 2018, 05:46:00 pm
I love when Women get technical !,  Seriously !!!!!
It's such a pleasant change from my 'ex'......
I'm an 'Avid' follower of 'Fran Blanche' on Youtube......

Transgender cases are not clear cut for the topic.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: tooki on June 23, 2018, 07:33:43 pm
I love when Women get technical !,  Seriously !!!!!
It's such a pleasant change from my 'ex'......
I'm an 'Avid' follower of 'Fran Blanche' on Youtube......

Transgender cases are not clear cut for the topic.
Really?!? Didja read the original post? It includes “back when I was a guy”...
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on June 23, 2018, 09:24:24 pm
May is ask what technology your family has invented?


Part of the back bone of the internet, a device in all court rooms, software on almost all smart phones. And the ice bucket challenge. I don't want to say more because you could use that (not you specifically) but it would be a way for people to identify me and I hate the fact I can be googled. If people really knew how much data is collected on them they would be pissed. I know I am and try to combat with as much disinformation as possible.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Bud on June 23, 2018, 09:31:50 pm
I love when Women get technical !,  Seriously !!!!!
It's such a pleasant change from my 'ex'......
I'm an 'Avid' follower of 'Fran Blanche' on Youtube......

Transgender cases are not clear cut for the topic.
Really?!? Didja read the original post? It includes “back when I was a guy”...

I do not see how that is relevant to the Topic subject. 
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Eka on June 23, 2018, 11:58:46 pm
I do not see how that is relevant to the Topic subject.
Stereotyping of a nastier sort...


I love when Women get technical !,  Seriously !!!!!
It's such a pleasant change from my 'ex'......
I'm an 'Avid' follower of 'Fran Blanche' on Youtube......

Transgender cases are not clear cut for the topic.
Why not? Everybody reacts to me as if I'm female, even when I'm wearing mens clothing.

What I find sad is a girl who is obviously brilliant that does nothing with her brains, and tries to hide her brilliance because she thinks she needs to to get a guy. I've run into to that way to often. I even ran into it in the granddaughter of a famous scientist who did space research.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: NiHaoMike on June 24, 2018, 12:57:26 am
What I find sad is a girl who is obviously brilliant that does nothing with her brains, and tries to hide her brilliance because she thinks she needs to to get a guy. I've run into to that way to often. I even ran into it in the granddaughter of a famous scientist who did space research.
Time to let them know that smart girls tend to be very desired by smart guys? There are so many pretty girls out there that it's hard to stand out with good looks alone. Smart girls and strong girls are far less common.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: jmelson on June 24, 2018, 01:34:48 am
Beamin (and anybody else interested) should look up Lynn Conway.  Originally Larry, worked for IBM on several aborted projects to come out with the next blockbuster computer after the 360.  He did a lot of really important stuff related to supercomputer architectures and also wrote a number of simulators to explore performance of high performance computers.  Then, he decided he'd be more comfortable as a woman, and went in for a sex change.  This was in the mid 1960's, his/her supervisors were completely understanding, as Lynn was a total WHIZ, but top management blew a fuse and demanded she be fired.
She disappeared for a while, mostly in academia, and then resurfaced with a truly seminal book on LSI design, with Carver Mead.  At the time, I thought they were CRAZY, but they were looking 20 years into the future, while I was stuck with about a one year horizon.

Jon
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on June 24, 2018, 03:14:04 am
I do not see how that is relevant to the Topic subject.
Stereotyping of a nastier sort...


I love when Women get technical !,  Seriously !!!!!
It's such a pleasant change from my 'ex'......
I'm an 'Avid' follower of 'Fran Blanche' on Youtube......

Transgender cases are not clear cut for the topic.
Why not? Everybody reacts to me as if I'm female, even when I'm wearing mens clothing.

What I find sad is a girl who is obviously brilliant that does nothing with her brains, and tries to hide her brilliance because she thinks she needs to to get a guy. I've run into to that way to often. I even ran into it in the granddaughter of a famous scientist who did space research.


Wow there is another transgirl here? Just one question if you pass as a female why would you wear guys clothes? That would make me really uncomfortable in public especially if I had to use the bathroom. Boobs and the mens room are a bad idea. The last time I walked into a mens room because three womens bathrooms were full all the people stared at me when I walked in and a guy yelled out "This is the mens room! ladies room is down that way. Let me show you."


I watched franslab for a long time and never had a clue she was trans. I guess someone "outed" her for some nasty reason and she made a great video about it. I don't think anyone thinks she doesn't know her shit. In reality I would rather have someone think I was a girl that doesn't know electronics then think I'm a guy who does. Getting my appearance to this point was a huge effort that took a lot of "balls".   ;)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2018, 04:18:09 am
Wow there is another transgirl here?

IIRC there are many, like a half dozen or so.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 24, 2018, 06:11:04 am
What I find sad is a girl who is obviously brilliant that does nothing with her brains, and tries to hide her brilliance because she thinks she needs to get a guy. I've run into to that way to often.
True and there are many many more sad things about people and love, like young people that only interested in looks like TS self also hints at:
Grow some muscles and about 6" taller
Then years later realizing that this is the least important quality needed for a good and steady relation resulting in divorce number x.
Or intelligent women having a good career that still want to find someone even more succesfull ending up ditching their career for the spouse one, young girls that are attrackted to wrong criminal man because it is exiting and they have (other persons) money to flash around, which seems to be resolved when they get to the age they want their baby and realize they need someone reliable, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: coppice on June 24, 2018, 09:40:37 am
What I find sad is a girl who is obviously brilliant that does nothing with her brains, and tries to hide her brilliance because she thinks she needs to to get a guy. I've run into to that way to often. I even ran into it in the granddaughter of a famous scientist who did space research.
Women frequently do their best to discourage other women getting a good education and a good career, usually on the pretext of this making it harder to find a mate. I'm not sure if this is heartfelt pleading, or jealousy. Its certainly a bad idea, unless the average smart women sets her sights on thick failing males. What smart well educated man wants a dumb incapable spouse? A shallow male might choose a hot looking spouse over a smart one, but I think in the end the lack of informed conversation makes them see the error of their ways.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GlennSprigg on June 24, 2018, 10:03:03 am
I love when Women get technical !,  Seriously !!!!!
It's such a pleasant change from my 'ex'......
I'm an 'Avid' follower of 'Fran Blanche' on Youtube......

Transgender cases are not clear cut for the topic.

?????  I just looked up the info.  I really had no idea !!!!!!
Oh well. Doesn't change how I think about 'her', or her work....
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Seekonk on June 24, 2018, 07:00:14 pm
OOPS! I'm a bad man. I was at a garage sale yesterday in a very affluent community where most couples are professionals.  They had a nice clock which had each number as a math equation and a bunch of engineering books on concrete.  I said casually that someone must be an engineer. I thought that was neutral.  She responded, My husbands an engineer (nondescript). I'm a geologist.  I never found out who the books belonged to, concrete is fascinating.  I must have touched a nerve.  I'm finding it more and more inadvisable to talk to anyone unless I am responding to a direct question.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Eka on June 24, 2018, 07:31:59 pm
What I find sad is a girl who is obviously brilliant that does nothing with her brains, and tries to hide her brilliance because she thinks she needs to to get a guy. I've run into to that way to often. I even ran into it in the granddaughter of a famous scientist who did space research.
Time to let them know that smart girls tend to be very desired by smart guys? There are so many pretty girls out there that it's hard to stand out with good looks alone. Smart girls and strong girls are far less common.
Smarts last a lifetime. Can't say that about pretty.

Smart and pretty got me into a menage a trois with a royal couple. I'm still called mom by their kids, and grandma, and great grandma by the next generations. At first it felt weird getting called mom by their kids, actually adults at the time who were all older than I was, but soon it just felt right. Involvement with them totally derailed my planned career. I went to college wanting to design silicon chips and maybe even figure out the next semiconductor base, or end up somewhere in theoretical physics. I even took a course based on Mead & Conway's VLSI textbook. I ended up learning and doing whatever was needed to help run a small country. The best part is I had fun doing it with my partners.

Beamin (and anybody else interested) should look up Lynn Conway.
Another one to look up is Wendy Carlos. Before she transitioned, she scored, and performed Switched On Bach which used synthesizers. It went gold very fast and was the second classical album to go platinum. She also scored the movies A Clockwork Orange, The Shining, and Tron. BTW, she knows analog electrical engineering.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Eka on June 24, 2018, 07:33:45 pm

Wow there is another transgirl here? Just one question if you pass as a female why would you wear guys clothes? That would make me really uncomfortable in public especially if I had to use the bathroom. Boobs and the mens room are a bad idea. The last time I walked into a mens room because three womens bathrooms were full all the people stared at me when I walked in and a guy yelled out "This is the mens room! ladies room is down that way. Let me show you."
I have a lot of mens clothing from the zombie years when I didn't remember my past and suppressed all emotions. My women's clothing wardrobe isn't that well filled out yet. Complex PTSD and CFS have me disabled so I don't have much income to acquire more with. I'm in my second transition that I started a little over 4 years ago. After being attacked on the street and hospitalized back in '85, I was forced into conversion therapy against my will. The ECT that was done to me badly damaged my memories and skills. I couldn't even recognize my parents and had no memories of who I was before. If I hadn't started out with an off the scale IQ, I'd likely have been reduced to being an idiot. There are large are on each side of my cerebral cortex where they placed the ECT probes that delivered the shocks that remains dark and never shows any brain activity. Thankfully I'm still able to self teach on tough subjects, and have been relearning stuff I knew before. That is when my mind lets me. Some subjects or sub areas of subjects it seams I have some sort of block on relearning  The transfer from short term memory to long term memory fails, or where it gets stored isn't able to be retrieved from. My body was also wrecked by the testosterone and HGH I was pumped full of.

Wow there is another transgirl here?

IIRC there are many, like a half dozen or so.
I'd suspect many many more haven't spoken up about it.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: NiHaoMike on June 24, 2018, 10:16:17 pm
Another one to look up is Wendy Carlos. Before she transitioned, she scored, and performed Switched On Bach which used synthesizers. It went gold very fast and was the second classical album to go platinum. She also scored the movies A Clockwork Orange, The Shining, and Tron. BTW, she knows analog electrical engineering.
And Hedy Lamarr, the first woman to take part in both art and engineering, best known as the inventor of spread spectrum communication. At Qualcomm, where I once worked, Hedy Lamarr is pretty much seen as a goddess because so many of the products they make (almost everything) relies on some variant of spread spectrum communication.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: rsjsouza on June 24, 2018, 10:16:35 pm
OOPS! I'm a bad man. I was at a garage sale yesterday in a very affluent community where most couples are professionals.  They had a nice clock which had each number as a math equation and a bunch of engineering books on concrete.  I said casually that someone must be an engineer. I thought that was neutral.  She responded, My husbands an engineer (nondescript). I'm a geologist.  I never found out who the books belonged to, concrete is fascinating.  I must have touched a nerve.  I'm finding it more and more inadvisable to talk to anyone unless I am responding to a direct question.
I would imagine your sentence as being foul if the recipient lives in pins and needles. Since we can't tell anymore how things go these days, I tend to apply the same method as you. Keep my head down and lose all the lightness when around unknown people.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GreyWoolfe on June 25, 2018, 02:09:30 am
OOPS! I'm a bad man. I was at a garage sale yesterday in a very affluent community where most couples are professionals.  They had a nice clock which had each number as a math equation and a bunch of engineering books on concrete.  I said casually that someone must be an engineer. I thought that was neutral.  She responded, My husbands an engineer (nondescript). I'm a geologist.  I never found out who the books belonged to, concrete is fascinating.  I must have touched a nerve.  I'm finding it more and more inadvisable to talk to anyone unless I am responding to a direct question.
I would imagine your sentence as being foul if the recipient lives in pins and needles. Since we can't tell anymore how things go these days, I tend to apply the same method as you. Keep my head down and lose all the lightness when around unknown people.

Doesn't this let the perpetually offended win?  I always try to be considerate and respectful but the fact of the matter is that you can't please everyone nor should you try.  I am a greybeard by age, Sicilian by heritage and a Jersey Boy by birth.  Political correctness doesn't exist in my world.  What does is being very honest and truthful.  I look people in the eye, I try to speak plainly so there is no misinterpretation of what I say and my handshake is as good as a contract, just like my dearly departed Dad.  If I offend, I will apologize but I refuse to pull my head back into my shell for fear of offending, your being offended is not going to ruin my day.  If someone wants to be perpetually offended by everything said to them, they are only making themselves miserable and not enjoying life.  Life is way to short to be p**sed at everything.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: rsjsouza on June 25, 2018, 02:36:08 am
OOPS! I'm a bad man. I was at a garage sale yesterday in a very affluent community where most couples are professionals.  They had a nice clock which had each number as a math equation and a bunch of engineering books on concrete.  I said casually that someone must be an engineer. I thought that was neutral.  She responded, My husbands an engineer (nondescript). I'm a geologist.  I never found out who the books belonged to, concrete is fascinating.  I must have touched a nerve.  I'm finding it more and more inadvisable to talk to anyone unless I am responding to a direct question.
I would imagine your sentence as being foul if the recipient lives in pins and needles. Since we can't tell anymore how things go these days, I tend to apply the same method as you. Keep my head down and lose all the lightness when around unknown people.

Doesn't this let the perpetually offended win?  I always try to be considerate and respectful but the fact of the matter is that you can't please everyone nor should you try.  I am a greybeard by age, Sicilian by heritage and a Jersey Boy by birth.  Political correctness doesn't exist in my world.  What does is being very honest and truthful.  I look people in the eye, I try to speak plainly so there is no misinterpretation of what I say and my handshake is as good as a contract, just like my dearly departed Dad.  If I offend, I will apologize but I refuse to pull my head back into my shell for fear of offending, your being offended is not going to ruin my day.  If someone wants to be perpetually offended by everything said to them, they are only making themselves miserable and not enjoying life.  Life is way to short to be p**sed at everything.
I agree with you there, and I should have prefaced my statements with the stance that I only risk these ventures when the environment is neutral to me. Work, for example, is out of question: I will only chat about certan subjects with people I know well - others, I don't care enough to get into an argument and being at risk of being called into HR. Fortunately my family and close friends do not subscribe to PC.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 25, 2018, 06:04:20 am
Just skip the hot potatoe items that always seem to end in conflict: religion and politics (perhaps sports if supporter from two different competitive teams) and you're good.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Nominal Animal on June 25, 2018, 09:08:42 am
Complex PTSD and CFS have me disabled so I don't have much income to acquire more with. I'm in my second transition that I started a little over 4 years ago. After being attacked on the street and hospitalized back in '85, I was forced into conversion therapy against my will. The ECT that was done to me badly damaged my memories and skills.
I think I can relate, suffering from repeated burnout and clinical depression: basically I tried to work myself to death before age 30, without seeking help or opening up to anyone.  What is left, is a burned out husk of a man.  I've considered ECT, but I do not believe I could survive if I lost my problem-solving abilities. Fortunately, SSRI medication keeps me functional without any side effects. (I suspect I have an actual serotonin deficiency, as aside from headaches, none of the medication I've tried has caused me any side effects; most of them were, or became, simply ineffective.  I've yet to find a neurologist interested enough to investigate.)  For the last ten years, I've been slowly rebuilding myself, starting from very basic social skills (although I must admit, they were quite wonky from the get go: vanalytical, not at all emotive or introspective).

The oddest thing about the topic at hand to me, is that it seems that very few people seem to realize that the problems stem from individuals being treated as members of some (arbitrary and incorrect) group, and not as individuals.  Yet, the "fix", according to the vocal activists, is to create more groups, enforcing differentiation by custom or by law (like in Canada, with the new personal pronouns), rather than treat everyone as an individual!  :-//
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GlennSprigg on June 25, 2018, 11:34:20 am
Just skip the hot potatoe items that always seem to end in conflict: religion and politics (perhaps sports if supporter from two different competitive teams) and you're good.

I agree Sir. (Not 'Sir' or 'Madam' as I know you are male, and address you as such then  :) )
Except this 'topic' didn't diverge to either religion or politics, or race, but discussing a womans
place/acceptance in this technical world. (Amongst others).

I have the greatest respect throughout my 'technical' life for girls/women who do/know....
SOMETIMES, though, I've experienced the 'negative' ones, that feel a need to 'prove' something ?

Times are changing, (for the good!), but I 'base' myself on how my father brought me up.
So for instance, I've made the 'mistake' of merely holding a door open for a woman, (how I'm
brought up), and being told... "What do you thing I am, a F&%#ing cripple!! ".... sigh....
Or 'daring' to pay for a meal out, (how I was brought up!), on a first date, 'without' knowing
what 'she' earns, if anything.  To ME... these are (were!) signs of being a 'Gentleman'.....

Some women/(girls) I've spoken to in latter years have constantly said the likes of....
"Oh no, I can't let 'them' buy me a drink, because then I "owe" (sigh) them!!"

These 'women/girls' need to STOP dumbing themselves down & get back on their deserved Pedestals !!!!
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GreyWoolfe on June 25, 2018, 12:11:42 pm
I agree with you there, and I should have prefaced my statements with the stance that I only risk these ventures when the environment is neutral to me. Work, for example, is out of question: I will only chat about certan subjects with people I know well - others, I don't care enough to get into an argument and being at risk of being called into HR. Fortunately my family and close friends do not subscribe to PC.

Happily, my work environment is such that I don't have to worry.  I am a remote field service technician and I work from home.  My office workers are my dogs and they agree with everything I say as long as I provide butt scratches. ;D  Thankfully, neither does my family and close friends.  It's been said that if you want to know what you are like, look at who you hang around with.  More than once, I have said that I am thankful for being on the downslide of life.  I would truly hate to be in the 18-34 age bracket right now.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: nanofrog on June 25, 2018, 01:56:05 pm
My office workers are my dogs and they agree with everything I say as long as I provide butt scratches. ;D
What, no snacks?   :o ;D

Seriously though, I definitely get where you and others are coming from in the being respectful but honest over political correctness, performing gentlemanly acts, and the like. It really would be hard if I were just starting my adult life as well.

But at this point in life, I'm old enough I don't let it bother me. They can take their indignation and stuff it somewhere very uncomfortable. >:D
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: rsjsouza on June 25, 2018, 03:37:38 pm
Just skip the hot potatoe items that always seem to end in conflict: religion and politics (perhaps sports if supporter from two different competitive teams) and you're good.
Kjelt, the issue I see is that the "hot potato items" are constantly changing, together with the "chivalry acts" mentioned by GlennSprigg. Although the vast majority of the people I know still is quite reasonable (to my standards), I can't necessarily tell who thinks what anymore. I can do my part and pass along to my girls what I find reasonable and hope that, after a certain age, they carry this over.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 25, 2018, 04:31:02 pm
SOMETIMES, though, I've experienced the 'negative' ones, that feel a need to 'prove' something ?
I would talk to them , good chance they think they have to perform more to be taken seriously.
It is still a big issue, also here Women are still paid less than man for the same work, ridiculous.

Quote
So for instance, I've made the 'mistake' of merely holding a door open for a woman, (how I'm
brought up), and being told... "What do you thing I am, a F&%#ing cripple!! ".... sigh....
I never ever experienced such a response and I often hold the door but also for man or children if they walk in doorclosing distance behind me.

Quote
Or 'daring' to pay for a meal out, (how I was brought up!), on a first date, 'without' knowing
what 'she' earns, if anything.  To ME... these are (were!) signs of being a 'Gentleman'.....
Yeah times are changing , next time ask if she minds that you pay, it is an open question and offer and if she does not like it you accept it and have a great conversationpiece  :)

Quote
Some women/(girls) I've spoken to in latter years have constantly said the likes of....
"Oh no, I can't let 'them' buy me a drink, because then I "owe" (sigh) them!!"
These 'women/girls' need to STOP dumbing themselves down & get back on their deserved Pedestals !!!!
There are a lot of bad man out there, if you read about how loverboys are operating you see why some women don't want anything from a man. The bad apples ruin it for the good guys but I think it mostly depends on the woman. And a lot of woman at least here in the Netherlands don't want to be put on a pedestal they want to be on equal height in an equal relationship where both work and both do part of the household and the kids etc. etc.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: NiHaoMike on June 25, 2018, 04:52:33 pm
Or 'daring' to pay for a meal out, (how I was brought up!), on a first date, 'without' knowing
what 'she' earns, if anything.  To ME... these are (were!) signs of being a 'Gentleman'.....
Yeah times are changing , next time ask if she minds that you pay, it is an open question and offer and if she does not like it you accept it and have a great conversationpiece  :)
I remember the time in college when I asked Allie Moore out on a date. I offered to pay but she declined and insisted on paying "fair share", but I suspect that's because she knows she eats a lot and feels bad when others pay for it. That was a day after I fixed her PC so she knows that I can do a lot of good stuff for her.
Quote
Quote
Some women/(girls) I've spoken to in latter years have constantly said the likes of....
"Oh no, I can't let 'them' buy me a drink, because then I "owe" (sigh) them!!"
These 'women/girls' need to STOP dumbing themselves down & get back on their deserved Pedestals !!!!
There are a lot of bad man out there, if you read about how loverboys are operating you see why some women don't want anything from a man. The bad apples ruin it for the good guys but I think it mostly depends on the woman. And a lot of woman at least here in the Netherlands don't want to be put on a pedestal they want to be on equal height in an equal relationship where both work and both do part of the household and the kids etc. etc.
I remember Micah Elizabeth Scott telling about the time she was married (or just in a relationship?) and how she didn't like it, then she became single and said she intends to stay that way. It might be because she's afraid of getting into another bad relationship, or maybe just to stop random guys asking to marry her?
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 25, 2018, 05:48:24 pm
Every person is unique and likes something different.
My neighbour has three daughters, two were the Disney princess type the other Peter Pann   ;)
Perhaps that is what makes this world so beautifull there is no default answer.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GreyWoolfe on June 25, 2018, 07:32:37 pm
My office workers are my dogs and they agree with everything I say as long as I provide butt scratches. ;D
What, no snacks?   :o ;D

Seriously though, I definitely get where you and others are coming from in the being respectful but honest over political correctness, performing gentlemanly acts, and the like. It really would be hard if I were just starting my adult life as well.

But at this point in life, I'm old enough I don't let it bother me. They can take their indignation and stuff it somewhere very uncomfortable. >:D

Of course there are snacks, just not regularly, though the full figured Doberman mix would disagree with that philosophy. :popcorn:  I don't worry about it either.  As long as my head and heart are in agreement, I know I am doing the best that I can do, for everyone else; lead, follow or get out of the way.  I have no issues about telling you where to stuff it and it sounds so much better with my Jersey accent.  :-DD

I am also one of those who opens the car door for my wife.  I walk on the outside when we walk down the street and not only do I open doors for her, I hold them open for everyone-no discrimination there.  Sometimes I even get a thank you!!!  I am just an old school fool and proud of it.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Eka on June 26, 2018, 06:51:23 am
Sorry, I wrote a book again.

Complex PTSD and CFS have me disabled so I don't have much income to acquire more with. I'm in my second transition that I started a little over 4 years ago. After being attacked on the street and hospitalized back in '85, I was forced into conversion therapy against my will. The ECT that was done to me badly damaged my memories and skills.
I think I can relate, suffering from repeated burnout and clinical depression: basically I tried to work myself to death before age 30, without seeking help or opening up to anyone.  What is left, is a burned out husk of a man.  I've considered ECT, but I do not believe I could survive if I lost my problem-solving abilities. Fortunately, SSRI medication keeps me functional without any side effects. (I suspect I have an actual serotonin deficiency, as aside from headaches, none of the medication I've tried has caused me any side effects; most of them were, or became, simply ineffective.  I've yet to find a neurologist interested enough to investigate.)  For the last ten years, I've been slowly rebuilding myself, starting from very basic social skills (although I must admit, they were quite wonky from the get go: vanalytical, not at all emotive or introspective).
If at all possible stay away from ECT. At the levels needed to reset the brain for temporary relief from severe depression, it will destroy brain cells. That is why it is considered a treatment of absolute last resort after all else has been tried.

There has been some work done on veterans who have unresponsive depression. They medicated them with the active thyroid hormone T3, and it helped them. They started out with 20mcg T3 in a timed release form, and titrated up until the symptoms went away. I think the study was done by a VA hospital in Virginia or North Carolina. It is published in full online.

Note, cholesterol is one of the chemicals needed in the chain of reactions that create serotonin and dopamine. Drugs that lower cholesterol can cause depression. The best way to decrease cholesterol is to increase your thyroid T3 levels, and avoid stress that causes T4 to be converted into reverse T3 which blocks and deactivates the receptors T3 binds to and activates. Sadly few doctors know this, and for many if it isn't in their standard care manual, it doesn't exist.

@Nominal Animal I too kept myself overly busy all the time when young, or with my mind thoroughly numbed by heroin. That was so I didn't think about how miserable going to school was or how bad my life was. In school I never learned anything because I'd learned it all long before. I was reading magazines like National Geographic by the time I entered first grade. So in class I was usually sitting there bored and worrying about what the bullies were going to do to me next. I tried my best to distract myself by thinking about projects I was working on after school, or reading books in classes where the teachers let me. I never could figure out why I was there, unless it was to have the bullies beat me into a man. Didn't work, it just shattered my mind. I learned to disassociate away the school day. By the time I was in 4th grade, I couldn't tell you what happened at school after I got off the bus. Looking back I also see the first signs of Complex PTSD before I left third grade. I can't tell you how much before that it was, because I don't know how old I was when the memory happened. I just know the playground was the one at the 1-3 grade school.

The oddest thing about the topic at hand to me, is that it seems that very few people seem to realize that the problems stem from individuals being treated as members of some (arbitrary and incorrect) group, and not as individuals.  Yet, the "fix", according to the vocal activists, is to create more groups, enforcing differentiation by custom or by law (like in Canada, with the new personal pronouns), rather than treat everyone as an individual!  :-//
It isn't to make more groups. Transgenders have been stereotyped into a group and not seen as individuals for ages. The goal is to change the perception of transgenders to one that is accurate. Ie, we are all individuals. When I was growing up transgenders were nearly universally seen as as being insane or inherently evil persons. A minister in the community I lived in from first grade through freshman in HS labeled me a devils child and witch. He told his parishioners to not let their children play with me because I was evil and would corrupt them. Yet Alistair Cooke, of BBC's "Letter from America" fame, who had many actual interactions with me, described me as the most intelligent, well behaved, and delightful child he had ever met. The preacher was making assumptions based only on reports of me being a feminine boy while Alistair Cooke was basing his opinion on how I really behaved. Lynn Conway is brilliant and was very well liked by her IBM colleagues and managers whom she worked with, yet the CEO decreed she must be fired based on baseless prejudices he had about transgenders being crazy. We want the right to be treated fairly based on who we are as individuals, and not be stereotyped and discriminated against based on erroneous prejudices.

The new personal pronouns are because not everybody is masculine or feminine and can relate to the standard binary gender pronouns. There are many persons who are non gendered, that is they didn't get either masculine or feminine instincts, and many persons with more even mixes of both masculine and feminine instincts, that is they are somewhere between the normal masculine and normal feminine ranges. The normal masculine and normal feminine ranges are just that ranges. Some in them are highly masculine or highly feminine, and others are only weakly masculine or weakly feminine. Most people are somewhere in between highly and weakly, and even have some traits from the opposite gender to which they normally ascribe.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 26, 2018, 08:02:48 am
We want the right to be treated fairly based on who we are as individuals, and not be stereotyped and discriminated against based on erroneous prejudices.

The new personal pronouns are because not everybody is masculine or feminine and can relate to the standard binary gender pronouns. There are many persons who are non gendered, that is they didn't get either masculine or feminine instincts, and many persons with more even mixes of both masculine and feminine instincts, that is they are somewhere between the normal masculine and normal feminine ranges. The normal masculine and normal feminine ranges are just that ranges. Some in them are highly masculine or highly feminine, and others are only weakly masculine or weakly feminine. Most people are somewhere in between highly and weakly, and even have some traits from the opposite gender to which they normally ascribe.
You can't have it two ways. There are two genders a non-gender just does not exist, so one of my friends who was male till end of his twenties turned into a woman all the way, not only hormones but went to Thailand and did everything. He now has a female name changed his passport and lives as a woman. Even the pitch of his voice is higher. She is happy, not stereo typed.
The issues that I see is when groups act out trying to force their point of view on society. We are in general a very homo friendly country but I really don't understand why there should be something like a Gay parade where people dress up like it is carnaval and act out with only one purpose to provoke and shock. I don't get that. There is not something like a hetero parade where hetero people dress up like they belong in a p-movie and act out to shock everyone?

So it is easy choose your gender that suits you the best, switch every other day/week if you like but act accordingly and no-one will stereo-type you.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Nominal Animal on June 26, 2018, 02:15:15 pm
It isn't to make more groups.
I disagree.   Yes, most of those people definitely claim to be individualists, but it seems to be on the surface only: they still define concepts based on group identity, and base their interactions with those outside their social group on group-based prejudices and assumptions, and rarely actually behave as individualists would.

To me, the obvious solution would be to normalize the use of the genderless pronouns (like "they"), because that does not convey any kind of information on the gender of the person referred to. Inventing new pronouns simply creates new gender groups, and does not affect the underlying problem -- using pronouns to assign group identity -- at all.  In other words, remove gender from the list of things that are considered "obviously public information" about a person, and make it a private/personal detail.  So that it would not be strange to refer to people who consider themselves completely male or female with genderless pronouns too. Or if you happen to have a coworker whose gender is not immediately obvious, it would be considered something they wish to keep private, something like ones marital status, or living arrangements. Not necessarily anything "out of the ordinary" or "non-binary" or whatever, just private.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: tooki on June 26, 2018, 06:04:06 pm
You can't have it two ways. There are two genders a non-gender just does not exist, so one of my friends who was male till end of his twenties turned into a woman all the way, not only hormones but went to Thailand and did everything. He now has a female name changed his passport and lives as a woman. Even the pitch of his voice is higher. She is happy, not stereo typed.
I honestly can’t say that I understand being agender, since I’ve always been totally comfortable with being a male (i.e. I am a cisgender male). (I can only imagine what it must be like to be transgender, being trapped in the wrong body. But with agender, I really can’t even imagine it.) But — and it’s a huge “but” — who cares? Who am I to say they’re wrong? How would I know, since I’m happily cis? And what difference does it make? It takes essentially zero effort on my part to respect someone else’s wish. At most, I might have to ask how they prefer to be addressed. I don’t see how my life is negatively impacted by showing them respect, and on the other hand, that respect might make a difference to someone struggling to come to terms with their gender identity.


The issues that I see is when groups act out trying to force their point of view on society. We are in general a very homo friendly country but I really don't understand why there should be something like a Gay parade where people dress up like it is carnaval and act out with only one purpose to provoke and shock. I don't get that.
Yes, gay pride parades can get crazy. But that’s OK. I know lots of people who take their kids to pride simply to expose them to differentness, so their kids grow up tolerant and accepting.

Anyway, as to your real question, which is the purpose of gay pride events. According to your profile, you’re in the Netherlands, which is arguably the most LGBT-friendly country on the planet, and has been for a long time. So the original purpose of pride parades — demonstrations for equal rights — may be somewhat obsolete there. But in many countries, that purpose is still very much at the core of the parades. (One thing a lot of people don’t realize is that even in places with robust LGBT communities, like USA, there is still rampant discrimination, differences in law, and violence against us. For example, gay marriage is now federal law in USA — but in most states, you can still be fired from your job the next day for doing so. Or evicted from your apartment. Here in Switzerland, same-sex couples can get registered partnerships, but not marriage, and this comes with a handful of major limitations, including financial downsides and the express prohibition of adoption. So when you see a gay pride parade, remember that we are also there to fight, or at least raise awareness, for our rights.)

And in countries where we’ve mostly managed to achieve equality, we still hold the parades in solidarity with our brothers and sisters in countries where they remain oppressed to some degree or another* — and to celebrate and mourn those who fought and died to get us those rights. So think of the parades as the more political dimension of pride festivities.

Another reason is to mourn and celebrate our brothers lost to AIDS in the 80s and 90s before HIV could be treated. (And to raise awareness of the importance of protection today!)


Finally, one HUGE reason for holding pride events is to foster community. This is especially important for young LGBT people, who may be struggling to find themselves. It can be incredibly helpful to be able to go to a pride event and a) see that there are thousands of people just like you [iin your area alone[/i], and b) be able to let your guard down. For many LGBT youth, a pride event is the first exposure they have to other LGBT people, especially if they’re from a small town, for example. And often, the first time to let their guard down and be themselves. (Or even just go and take it in before coming out themselves.) You’ll just have to take our word for it that even in the absolutely most accepting environments, coming out is usually a really, really difficult, confusing, scary time. In a less accepting environment, it can be terrifying, oppressive, and hugely damaging. Imagine being a kid questioning their sexuality or gender identity in an environment where you’re reminded constantly that it’s a sin, that you’re “wrong”. Being able to connect with other people like you can literally be a life saver.



As for the outrageousness and festivals and parties that go along with the parades: why not? You don’t have to have an excuse to party, but if you do...



*One stereotype of gay men is that we’re pansies. But man... wanna see men with balls of fucking steel titanium? Look at the men who march in the gay pride parades in Uganda and other African and Middle Eastern nations where (male) homosexuality is punishable by death both in law and in practice. And yet they march!!! :O



There is not something like a hetero parade where hetero people dress up like they belong in a p-movie and act out to shock everyone?
You don’t need a straight pride parade because you already have full rights everywhere.

As for non-gay non-pride parades where people dress to shock... ummm... I suggest you avoid the Street Parade in Zurich, then! :D


So it is easy choose your gender that suits you the best, switch every other day/week if you like but act accordingly and no-one will stereo-type you.
That’s called “blaming the victim”.

Instead of worrying about how others behave, how about reflecting on why others’ behavior is so important to you. Because that says more about you than it does about them.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 26, 2018, 07:01:39 pm
Excuse my limited reply i am in a foreign country with an ipad and limited intenet connectivity
Quote
Who am I to say they’re wrong
I am not saying their wrong.


If the gay pride parades where about normal dressed people acting normal I believe they would inspire and relate more to those who still want to come out of the closet than dressed as brazilian carnaval bimbos or like the YMCA leather look. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: tooki on June 26, 2018, 08:31:24 pm
Excuse my limited reply i am in a foreign country with an ipad and limited intenet connectivity
Quote
Who am I to say they’re wrong
I am not saying their wrong.


If the gay pride parades where about normal dressed people acting normal I believe they would inspire and relate more to those who still want to come out of the closet than dressed as brazilian carnaval bimbos or like the YMCA leather look. Just my opinion.
Let me give you a hint: they’re not doing that for you.

And don’t forget the confirmation bias that you’re applying: you remember the leather daddies and flamboyant drag queens. But were they anything close to the majority of people there? Nope.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: CJay on June 26, 2018, 08:50:17 pm
And don’t forget the confirmation bias that you’re applying: you remember the leather daddies and flamboyant drag queens. But were they anything close to the majority of people there? Nope.

Hehehe, I spotted that too.

Pride covers the whole gamut from one extreme to another but the one thing that's common across all the ones I've been to is that it's  damn good weekend with a great atmosphere while still making a very necessary point.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Nominal Animal on June 26, 2018, 09:04:35 pm
Why should I have to acknowledge other peoples' genders at all?

Wouldn't it be at least as acceptable to just consider gender a personal, private detail, and treat everyone initially the same?

I mean, gender simply isn't a factor in most interactions I have. Other than the cases where I am attracted to someone, I don't see the need or practicality in acknowledging their gender (via, say, customized personal pronouns, or otherwise). It's not like we have separate pronouns for different personality types either.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 26, 2018, 09:22:32 pm
Quote
And don’t forget the confirmation bias that you’re applying: you remember the leather daddies and flamboyant drag queens. But were they anything close to the majority of people there? Nope.
True.
If this is the case with me it probably is with more people, iam not saying most people  ;)
Which is sad since it probably is not helping the gay integration in society at all but makes it worse IMO.

Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: tooki on June 26, 2018, 10:55:14 pm
Why should I have to acknowledge other peoples' genders at all?

Wouldn't it be at least as acceptable to just consider gender a personal, private detail, and treat everyone initially the same?

I mean, gender simply isn't a factor in most interactions I have. Other than the cases where I am attracted to someone, I don't see the need or practicality in acknowledging their gender (via, say, customized personal pronouns, or otherwise). It's not like we have separate pronouns for different personality types either.
I’m not aware of any human language which doesn’t use gender in pronouns. Many use it in other ways too, with some going as far as having different grammar depending on the gender of the speaker and recipient (among other things).

As for why you acknowledge someone’s gender: basic respect for their person.

Assuming you’re male: would you like it if people called you “miss” and “she”? Probably not. Just as it’s rude to not acknowledge someone’s correct name (e.g. if someone says they’re Thomas, and not Tom, then you call them Thomas), it’s rude to not acknowledge someone’s gender.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: tooki on June 26, 2018, 11:00:55 pm
Quote
And don’t forget the confirmation bias that you’re applying: you remember the leather daddies and flamboyant drag queens. But were they anything close to the majority of people there? Nope.
True.
If this is the case with me it probably is with more people, iam not saying most people  ;)
Which is sad since it probably is not helping the gay integration in society at all but makes it worse IMO.
Again, it’s not for you. Stop thinking that it’s all about serving you, it’s not!

Ultimately, pride (event) is about promoting tolerance and diversity. You don’t accomplish that by falling back, by complying with restrictions imposed by others.

Again, look inwards and ask yourself why those things bother you. (And why your arguments keep coming back to you being upset that we do not adhere to the rules you wish to impose. Why is compliance so important to you?)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: rsjsouza on June 27, 2018, 02:25:50 am
Coming from a very festive country (Brazil), I don't mind the pride parade at all. If anything, let them have the fun and acknowledgment by society.

I would also respect if someone asks me politely to refer using a he or she pronoun. However, I personally disagree with the 24-bit gradation of genders that only serve the purpose to address an obvious and fundamental feature of mankind: every individual is different. Also, I am with Jordan Peterson: just don't create a law that forces me to acknowledge that.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 27, 2018, 06:22:32 am
Stop thinking that it’s all about serving you, it’s not!
I know that , that is why I do not attend such events  ;)
I stop now since you don't get my point.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Nominal Animal on June 27, 2018, 08:10:42 am
I’m not aware of any human language which doesn’t use gender in pronouns.
Finnish does not have gendered pronouns.  Furthermore, in everyday speech, it is quite normal to use "it" to refer to humans, animals, and objects. (There are separate pronouns for humans and non-humans, but in everyday speech, the non-human pronouns (singular tämä/tuo/se, plural nämä/nuo/ne) are most common for everything.)

Assuming you’re male: would you like it if people called you “miss” and “she”?
Whenever people refer to me in Finnish, they use a genderless pronoun.  Works fine for me.

it’s rude to not acknowledge someone’s gender.
That is the exact part I don't understand.  Why is it rude?  (It isn't in Finnish, because we do not usually acknowledge anyones gender.)  What is the purpose of acknowledging someones gender?

That was my whole point, you see.  I am very willing to treat every single person I meet as an individual with their own particular characteristics, but I am not willing to learn the definitions of dozens of new genders, simply because I do not think that acknowledging someones gender has any positive purpose or effect.  Why would gender be more important than say, personality type?
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on June 27, 2018, 09:06:00 am

Wow there is another transgirl here? Just one question if you pass as a female why would you wear guys clothes? That would make me really uncomfortable in public especially if I had to use the bathroom. Boobs and the mens room are a bad idea. The last time I walked into a mens room because three womens bathrooms were full all the people stared at me when I walked in and a guy yelled out "This is the mens room! ladies room is down that way. Let me show you."
I have a lot of mens clothing from the zombie years when I didn't remember my past and suppressed all emotions. My women's clothing wardrobe isn't that well filled out yet. Complex PTSD and CFS have me disabled so I don't have much income to acquire more with. I'm in my second transition that I started a little over 4 years ago. After being attacked on the street and hospitalized back in '85, I was forced into conversion therapy against my will. The ECT that was done to me badly damaged my memories and skills. I couldn't even recognize my parents and had no memories of who I was before. If I hadn't started out with an off the scale IQ, I'd likely have been reduced to being an idiot. There are large are on each side of my cerebral cortex where they placed the ECT probes that delivered the shocks that remains dark and never shows any brain activity. Thankfully I'm still able to self teach on tough subjects, and have been relearning stuff I knew before. That is when my mind lets me. Some subjects or sub areas of subjects it seams I have some sort of block on relearning  The transfer from short term memory to long term memory fails, or where it gets stored isn't able to be retrieved from. My body was also wrecked by the testosterone and HGH I was pumped full of.

Wow there is another transgirl here?

IIRC there are many, like a half dozen or so.
I'd suspect many many more haven't spoken up about it.


That is absolutely terrible. Where/how did they do this to you? This was in America? To me taking testosterone was terrible as I started taking it because my body never naturally made much test. This made the GID so much worse rather then making it go away. I feel like I can look in the mirror now and love who I see.

I have had seizures that messed my memory up too. ECT in the wrong hands is just a severe torture. I find all of my brain power is still there I just need to access it differently now and relearn a few things. Like watching a movie and as you get into it your remember it.


What country do you speak of? Sounds like an amazing life. People only transition an odd number of times; once or three times. Two is very rare. Luckily people now a days can treat their children if they are trans and as it becomes more main stream many will be spared the suffering. We are just a few years before gay people. Didn't rattan "punish" people for homosexuality up until the 70's? Was that where it happened?   
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GlennSprigg on June 28, 2018, 12:24:34 pm
Wow, this has got a bit 'off topic'  :)
Can't we all just agree that there are a LOT of technically smart women/girls out there,
that can actually put a lot of us to shame, and deserve lots of credit !!!   :)

Do you realize that when 'Typewriters' were 1st invented, it was purely a MALE 'role'
to use them !! (being mechanical & all). Later, it was assumed only a woman could be
given the 'role', while 'filing' paperwork & taking phone-calls. (And dressing 'pretty').

These days, 'Women' are a major part of every scientific, biological etc etc company
that exists today. their 'limits' are not technical, by any means...
However... the ONLY thing I do not believe in, is Women in Front-Line warfare....
I'm not being 'sexist' by saying that MOST women do not have the same physical strength
as MOST men, and should not be relied upon to carry say a 100-kg wounded soldier some
1 to 5 kms to safety.  It is purely a matter of realism, as well as respect...
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: IanMacdonald on June 28, 2018, 12:43:50 pm
Finnish does not have gendered pronouns.  Furthermore, in everyday speech, it is quite normal to use "it" to refer to humans, animals, and objects. (There are separate pronouns for humans and non-humans, but in everyday speech, the non-human pronouns (singular tämä/tuo/se, plural nämä/nuo/ne) are most common for everything.)

In Iceland, surnames are your father's or mother's name with 'son' or 'daughter' (dottir) added. That eliminates the stigma of women having to surrender their name at marriage.

As for why women tend not to take college science courses, I think it has a lot to do with the course material being too abstract, especially it that they contain far to much pure maths, most of which is not even remotely relevant to the main subject. Women, in my experience anyway, like to see that there is some kind of identifiable benefit or outcome arising from an activity. This situation puts men off too, but maybe not quite to the same extent.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 28, 2018, 12:48:30 pm
These days, 'Women' are a major part of every scientific, biological etc etc company
that exists today. their 'limits' are not technical, by any means...
However... the ONLY thing I do not believe in, is Women in Front-Line warfare....
I'm not being 'sexist' by saying that MOST women do not have the same physical strength
as MOST men, and should not be relied upon to carry say a 100-kg wounded soldier some
1 to 5 kms to safety.  It is purely a matter of realism, as well as respect...
Nonsense in the US marines there are plenty of women soldiers that will whoop your ass  :-DD
Respect is given anyone a chance and open mind to do and become what they want.
I like feminism and am waiting till we see female garbage collectors and other tough jobs.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: GlennSprigg on June 28, 2018, 01:04:36 pm
That's why I said 'MOST' men, and 'MOST' women....
Granted. There are always exceptions, that are not the 'norm'....
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on June 28, 2018, 07:10:48 pm
These days, 'Women' are a major part of every scientific, biological etc etc company
that exists today. their 'limits' are not technical, by any means...
However... the ONLY thing I do not believe in, is Women in Front-Line warfare....
I'm not being 'sexist' by saying that MOST women do not have the same physical strength
as MOST men, and should not be relied upon to carry say a 100-kg wounded soldier some
1 to 5 kms to safety.  It is purely a matter of realism, as well as respect...
Nonsense in the US marines there are plenty of women soldiers that will whoop your ass  :-DD
Respect is given anyone a chance and open mind to do and become what they want.
I like feminism and am waiting till we see female garbage collectors and other tough jobs.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on June 28, 2018, 07:30:24 pm
These days, 'Women' are a major part of every scientific, biological etc etc company
that exists today. their 'limits' are not technical, by any means...
However... the ONLY thing I do not believe in, is Women in Front-Line warfare....
I'm not being 'sexist' by saying that MOST women do not have the same physical strength
as MOST men, and should not be relied upon to carry say a 100-kg wounded soldier some
1 to 5 kms to safety.  It is purely a matter of realism, as well as respect...
Nonsense in the US marines there are plenty of women soldiers that will whoop your ass  :-DD
Respect is given anyone a chance and open mind to do and become what they want.
I like feminism and am waiting till we see female garbage collectors and other tough jobs.

I totally thought women should fight on the front line until I started taking estrogen. Physically I'm not strong at all, I was really fit but my chest went from barely a 38A bra (38 is circumference around back and includes lats and other muscles) to a loose 36b/c. I can't even lift most heavy things. Without test you just don't have the strength.

The second is mental. This feeling is almost unexplainable but I'll try: Your mind stops the aggression/arguing and is replaced by empathy and sympathy. I went from watching shoot'em ups to watching more cerebral emotional movies that some times even make my cry. I never cried for anything before. If you need your troops to shoot no matter what women are going to struggle especially if ordered to kill women and children like in Iraq. Since they are more emotionally involved they are more likely to get PTSD and act as humanitarians then soldiers. Some may argue that this is exactly what the army needs but it doesn't help you steal oil. Science and math by their nature are emotionless. This isn't going to appeal to the estrogen filled brain.

Sure there are tomboy types but they typically have more testosterone then normal women closer to men. Both men and women need testosterone but only women have estrogen.

I'm still interested in building electronics and other things but I find that time is divided with things like putting on make up for 30+ minutes a day. I never liked make up before and thought it was a necessary chore. Or clothes shopping etc. I now understand why you could buy something with no intrinsic value just because "it was cute". If you really want to figure women out take estrogen for a week. When I first took it I thought: "This is amazing! Everyone should feel like this!" It was almost like being on drugs. But my brain is probably wired for it.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Bassman59 on June 28, 2018, 09:35:30 pm
Wow there is another transgirl here? Just one question if you pass as a female why would you wear guys clothes?

Apropos of this discussion, one of the Kicad developers recently came out to the listserv. Mostly it was a re-introduction, as her name changed. (She also has posted in this forum.) The response was generally, "good on ya!" and then it was back to fixing bugs for the upcoming RC.

The community is very accepting, I think, as it should be.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Kjelt on June 28, 2018, 09:51:06 pm
If you need your troops to shoot no matter what women are going to struggle especially if ordered to kill women and children like in Iraq.
same for men, in WW2 something like 1 out of 4 soldiers could not pull the trigger on the enemy forces!
I saw many documentaries where the army started brainwashing soldiers by letting them "play" often in simulators so they don't think about it anymore and perceive it as a game. Famous the helicopter scene that was leaked to the press a few years back, they just act as it is a game. What about drones, no more consciousness, it is a videoscreen making it as abstract as possible.
Anyway entirely different discussion.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: langwadt on June 28, 2018, 10:09:33 pm
If you need your troops to shoot no matter what women are going to struggle especially if ordered to kill women and children like in Iraq.
same for men, in WW2 something like 1 out of 4 soldiers could not pull the trigger on the enemy forces!
I saw many documentaries where the army started brainwashing soldiers by letting them "play" often in simulators so they don't think about it anymore and perceive it as a game. Famous the helicopter scene that was leaked to the press a few years back, they just act as it is a game. What about drones, no more consciousness, it is a videoscreen making it as abstract as possible.
Anyway entirely different discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: mathsquid on June 29, 2018, 01:26:50 am
I’m not aware of any human language which doesn’t use gender in pronouns.

Turkish and Farsi don't use gendered pronouns. I suspected this because my friends who speak those languages natively sometimes swap he for she, or vice-versa. There's a wikipedia page about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: rsjsouza on June 29, 2018, 03:28:04 pm
If Wikipedia is to be believed, here is a relevant reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

...and on the other hand, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, German (and most probably others) gender absolutely everything in a binary form. No neutral pronoun.

Now try to change that!  |O

(edit) check the two posts below.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: mbless on June 29, 2018, 05:49:17 pm
If Wikipedia is to be believed, here is a relevant reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

...and on the other hand, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, German (and most probably others) gender absolutely everything in a binary form. No neutral pronoun.

Now try to change that!  |O

Nitpicking here, but there are neuter pronouns in Spanish (demonstrative and possessive come to mind). They typically refer to objects and not people, though.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: tooki on June 29, 2018, 07:02:55 pm
If Wikipedia is to be believed, here is a relevant reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

...and on the other hand, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, German (and most probably others) gender absolutely everything in a binary form. No neutral pronoun.

Now try to change that!  |O
German has three grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter. But of course, grammatical gender needn’t align with a human’s gender. Notably in German, “girl” is neuter (because it’s a diminutive), so a girl is referred to as “it” if previously referred to as “a girl”. But if the girl has been named, then she becomes “she”.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: IanMacdonald on June 30, 2018, 10:08:46 pm
All this gender business came from Latin, of course. Though, where Latin got it from, heaven knows. Etruscan, maybe?
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: tooki on July 01, 2018, 06:54:31 am
All this gender business came from Latin, of course. Though, where Latin got it from, heaven knows. Etruscan, maybe?
Nonsense. Latin being the root of all grammar is a myth spread by Latin snobs over the years. (There have been some artificial examples, like the prescriptivist grammarians in English declaring that "split infinitives are bad, mmkay?", because in Latin they really were bad, but in English a) the "split infinitives" aren't actually split infinitives, since "to" isn't part of the infinitive at all, and b) the so-called split infinitive structure is absolutely compliant with English's germanic grammar.)

What spreads among languages is vocabulary.


Lots of languages have grammatical gender, including languages that aren't related. Latin didn't have to "get it" from Etruscan, since Latin (like its entire branch of languages) already had it.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on July 01, 2018, 10:29:29 am
If Wikipedia is to be believed, here is a relevant reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

...and on the other hand, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, German (and most probably others) gender absolutely everything in a binary form. No neutral pronoun.

Now try to change that!  |O
German has three grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter. But of course, grammatical gender needn’t align with a human’s gender. Notably in German, “girl” is neuter (because it’s a diminutive), so a girl is referred to as “it” if previously referred to as “a girl”. But if the girl has been named, then she becomes “she”.


Back way off topic you said "eagle gay/leather bars". Is this just a fashion or does it mean that's a meet up place for people in BDSM communities? I have always wanted to by one of those things that looks like a one piece bathing suit buy is made out of black shiny leather. Like the dominatrix's wear. Is that the sort of things people wear to leather bars? I have the shiny black leather knee high pointy 3" heel boots to go with it. Whip optional. I bet I could wear that to the local electronics store and get the attention of the male staff to respect me!  :-DD
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: CJay on July 01, 2018, 12:46:14 pm


Back way off topic you said "eagle gay/leather bars". Is this just a fashion or does it mean that's a meet up place for people in BDSM communities? I have always wanted to by one of those things that looks like a one piece bathing suit buy is made out of black shiny leather. Like the dominatrix's wear. Is that the sort of things people wear to leather bars? I have the shiny black leather knee high pointy 3" heel boots to go with it. Whip optional. I bet I could wear that to the local electronics store and get the attention of the male staff to respect me!  :-DD

 :-DD :-DD :-DD   Sooooooo far off topic indeed but I suspect the boys in the local electronics store would be at your feet in seconds.

(oh, and it's more likely latex)
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: nctnico on July 01, 2018, 01:44:31 pm


Back way off topic you said "eagle gay/leather bars". Is this just a fashion or does it mean that's a meet up place for people in BDSM communities? I have always wanted to by one of those things that looks like a one piece bathing suit buy is made out of black shiny leather. Like the dominatrix's wear. Is that the sort of things people wear to leather bars? I have the shiny black leather knee high pointy 3" heel boots to go with it. Whip optional. I bet I could wear that to the local electronics store and get the attention of the male staff to respect me!  :-DD

 :-DD :-DD :-DD   Sooooooo far off topic indeed but I suspect the boys in the local electronics store would be at your feet in seconds.
Probably but at that point the brain power will come from somewhere else so don't expect any kind of answer to technical questions. It would result in a funny video though. Maybe Beamin can start a Youtube channel about the difficulties women meet when doing/shopping 'typical' male stuff.

BTW to get more on topic: my wife doesn't know how to operate a sewing machine but I do so I get the chores which involve using the sewing machine. This also means I need supplies every now and then so I know all about the treatment you get when you are shopping for things that are usually bought by the opposite sex.

edit: typo
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: rsjsouza on July 01, 2018, 08:00:38 pm
BTW to get more on topic: my wife doesn't know how to operate a sewing machine but I do so I get the chores which involve using the seqing machine. This also means I need supplies every now and then so I know all about the treatment you get when you are shopping for things that are usually bought by the opposite sex.
IME this is somewhat similar in baby/children's supply stores, or when you need to change your baby but changing tables are in woman's restrooms only. Some of it is changing, but still slowly.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on July 01, 2018, 08:53:02 pm


Back way off topic you said "eagle gay/leather bars". Is this just a fashion or does it mean that's a meet up place for people in BDSM communities? I have always wanted to by one of those things that looks like a one piece bathing suit buy is made out of black shiny leather. Like the dominatrix's wear. Is that the sort of things people wear to leather bars? I have the shiny black leather knee high pointy 3" heel boots to go with it. Whip optional. I bet I could wear that to the local electronics store and get the attention of the male staff to respect me!  :-DD

 :-DD :-DD :-DD   Sooooooo far off topic indeed but I suspect the boys in the local electronics store would be at your feet in seconds.

(oh, and it's more likely latex)


I can whip a candle flame out with a four foot whip with just the little red string on the end not knocking over the candle. "Give me a discount of 30% on a new scope NOW! And I don't want to hear you have to ask for your manager I want to hear you beg. CRACK! "YEOWwww I mean … yyyeyess mistress!".
Gets me thinking I know I would be good at that from experience of the opposite gender... Skills transferable will put that on my resume' along with has her own uniform..
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: tooki on July 01, 2018, 09:50:05 pm
If Wikipedia is to be believed, here is a relevant reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

...and on the other hand, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, German (and most probably others) gender absolutely everything in a binary form. No neutral pronoun.

Now try to change that!  |O
German has three grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter. But of course, grammatical gender needn’t align with a human’s gender. Notably in German, “girl” is neuter (because it’s a diminutive), so a girl is referred to as “it” if previously referred to as “a girl”. But if the girl has been named, then she becomes “she”.


Back way off topic you said "eagle gay/leather bars". Is this just a fashion or does it mean that's a meet up place for people in BDSM communities? I have always wanted to by one of those things that looks like a one piece bathing suit buy is made out of black shiny leather. Like the dominatrix's wear. Is that the sort of things people wear to leather bars? I have the shiny black leather knee high pointy 3" heel boots to go with it. Whip optional. I bet I could wear that to the local electronics store and get the attention of the male staff to respect me!  :-DD
Neither. The gay leather scene is, IMHO, rather different from the BDSM scene at large, even if there is some overlap in practices.

So no, you wouldn’t really see women in patent leather leotards at a gay leather bar, because they’re fundamentally hypermasculine spaces. You’d be much better off at a BDSM/fetish event not specifically targeted at gay men, or at a goth/industrial event.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: vk6zgo on July 03, 2018, 11:30:35 am
Quote from: Beamin link=topic=110923.msg1636655#msg1636655 date=
I'm still interested in building electronics and other things but I find that time is divided with things like putting on make up for 30+ minutes a day. I never liked make up before and thought it was a necessary chore. Or clothes shopping etc. I now understand why you could buy something with no intrinsic value just because "it was cute". If you really want to figure women out take estrogen for a week. When I first took it I thought: "This is amazing! Everyone should feel like this!" It was almost like being on drugs. But my brain is probably wired for it.

All of your posts in this thread seem to me to still exhibit a male concept of what "a women is like".
I'm not a woman, but I was brought up in a family of strong women, & have been married (virtually "joined at the hip") to my wife for 40+ years.

She is my love, my best friend, the person who is always there for me,---- she doesn't need to put on "airs & graces.
Most women are not all that "giggly & girly", & would battle to find the time to spend "30 minutes putting on makeup"----5 minutes would be more like it!
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Eka on July 03, 2018, 10:21:19 pm
I've been dealing with a second round of IV antibiotics, so I was in the hospital and feeling woozy and very tired from them. I tried to post a few times, but passed out from how tired they are making me.
Quote from: Beamin link=topic=110923.msg1636655#msg1636655 date=
I'm still interested in building electronics and other things but I find that time is divided with things like putting on make up for 30+ minutes a day. I never liked make up before and thought it was a necessary chore. Or clothes shopping etc. I now understand why you could buy something with no intrinsic value just because "it was cute". If you really want to figure women out take estrogen for a week. When I first took it I thought: "This is amazing! Everyone should feel like this!" It was almost like being on drugs. But my brain is probably wired for it.

All of your posts in this thread seem to me to still exhibit a male concept of what "a women is like".
I'm not a woman, but I was brought up in a family of strong women, & have been married (virtually "joined at the hip") to my wife for 40+ years.

She is my love, my best friend, the person who is always there for me,---- she doesn't need to put on "airs & graces.
Most women are not all that "giggly & girly", & would battle to find the time to spend "30 minutes putting on makeup"----5 minutes would be more like it!
I never lost my love for electronics. I did loose it for doing mechanical stuff like machining, automotive repair and enhancement. I also lost my desire to race cars. When young I wanted to compete in endurance racing. I even took 4 weeks of GT level race training classes when I was 17. I still love the design process, but make it, forget it. On the flip side, I can design a dress as good as the best of them can, and I can sew it too. I also do photography, paint, make sculptures, and jewelry. The main reason I have the "masculine" hobbies is I was pushed into doing them when young.

Makeup for a transwoman is a bit more involved due to needing to possibly cover up stubble, and contouring the face to make it look more feminine. Still, it can be done fast by someone experienced. I was taught by the makeup artists that did the models we used at the studios I learned at. So I was never slow. I could make my face look a decade older, and do stuff like full feathering on and around the eyelids in under 10 minutes. For one of the makeup artists that is a 5 minute job. More time will be spent on figuring out what is the best way to highlight the face than doing the makeup application, but when you have an already plotted out routine it goes very fast. Where the time gets spent is when the client says no freckles. I've had my full upper body covered in makeup to hide my freckles. Now try to put a dress on without smudging it. It's a 2 plus helper job. Between lighting changes, I used to help the stylists do the clothing changes, and sometimes I'd fill in for a no show model.

Transwomen tend to be on the more girly side. If they weren't, then they may have been able to deal with the female side of their nature without needing to transition. Yeah, not all transgenders need to transition. Those that do need to transition, need it to keep functioning.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on July 20, 2018, 06:06:49 pm
I've been dealing with a second round of IV antibiotics, so I was in the hospital and feeling woozy and very tired from them. I tried to post a few times, but passed out from how tired they are making me.
Quote from: Beamin link=topic=110923.msg1636655#msg1636655 date=
I'm still interested in building electronics and other things but I find that time is divided with things like putting on make up for 30+ minutes a day. I never liked make up before and thought it was a necessary chore. Or clothes shopping etc. I now understand why you could buy something with no intrinsic value just because "it was cute". If you really want to figure women out take estrogen for a week. When I first took it I thought: "This is amazing! Everyone should feel like this!" It was almost like being on drugs. But my brain is probably wired for it.

All of your posts in this thread seem to me to still exhibit a male concept of what "a women is like".
I'm not a woman, but I was brought up in a family of strong women, & have been married (virtually "joined at the hip") to my wife for 40+ years.

She is my love, my best friend, the person who is always there for me,---- she doesn't need to put on "airs & graces.
Most women are not all that "giggly & girly", & would battle to find the time to spend "30 minutes putting on makeup"----5 minutes would be more like it!
I never lost my love for electronics. I did loose it for doing mechanical stuff like machining, automotive repair and enhancement. I also lost my desire to race cars. When young I wanted to compete in endurance racing. I even took 4 weeks of GT level race training classes when I was 17. I still love the design process, but make it, forget it. On the flip side, I can design a dress as good as the best of them can, and I can sew it too. I also do photography, paint, make sculptures, and jewelry. The main reason I have the "masculine" hobbies is I was pushed into doing them when young.

Makeup for a transwoman is a bit more involved due to needing to possibly cover up stubble, and contouring the face to make it look more feminine. Still, it can be done fast by someone experienced. I was taught by the makeup artists that did the models we used at the studios I learned at. So I was never slow. I could make my face look a decade older, and do stuff like full feathering on and around the eyelids in under 10 minutes. For one of the makeup artists that is a 5 minute job. More time will be spent on figuring out what is the best way to highlight the face than doing the makeup application, but when you have an already plotted out routine it goes very fast. Where the time gets spent is when the client says no freckles. I've had my full upper body covered in makeup to hide my freckles. Now try to put a dress on without smudging it. It's a 2 plus helper job. Between lighting changes, I used to help the stylists do the clothing changes, and sometimes I'd fill in for a no show model.

Transwomen tend to be on the more girly side. If they weren't, then they may have been able to deal with the female side of their nature without needing to transition. Yeah, not all transgenders need to transition. Those that do need to transition, need it to keep functioning.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on July 20, 2018, 06:40:58 pm
I've been dealing with a second round of IV antibiotics, so I was in the hospital and feeling woozy and very tired from them. I tried to post a few times, but passed out from how tired they are making me.
Quote from: Beamin link=topic=110923.msg1636655#msg1636655 date=
I'm still interested in building electronics and other things but I find that time is divided with things like putting on make up for 30+ minutes a day. I never liked make up before and thought it was a necessary chore. Or clothes shopping etc. I now understand why you could buy something with no intrinsic value just because "it was cute". If you really want to figure women out take estrogen for a week. When I first took it I thought: "This is amazing! Everyone should feel like this!" It was almost like being on drugs. But my brain is probably wired for it.

All of your posts in this thread seem to me to still exhibit a male concept of what "a women is like".
I'm not a woman, but I was brought up in a family of strong women, & have been married (virtually "joined at the hip") to my wife for 40+ years.

She is my love, my best friend, the person who is always there for me,---- she doesn't need to put on "airs & graces.
Most women are not all that "giggly & girly", & would battle to find the time to spend "30 minutes putting on makeup"----5 minutes would be more like it!
I never lost my love for electronics. I did loose it for doing mechanical stuff like machining, automotive repair and enhancement. I also lost my desire to race cars. When young I wanted to compete in endurance racing. I even took 4 weeks of GT level race training classes when I was 17. I still love the design process, but make it, forget it. On the flip side, I can design a dress as good as the best of them can, and I can sew it too. I also do photography, paint, make sculptures, and jewelry. The main reason I have the "masculine" hobbies is I was pushed into doing them when young.

Makeup for a transwoman is a bit more involved due to needing to possibly cover up stubble, and contouring the face to make it look more feminine. Still, it can be done fast by someone experienced. I was taught by the makeup artists that did the models we used at the studios I learned at. So I was never slow. I could make my face look a decade older, and do stuff like full feathering on and around the eyelids in under 10 minutes. For one of the makeup artists that is a 5 minute job. More time will be spent on figuring out what is the best way to highlight the face than doing the makeup application, but when you have an already plotted out routine it goes very fast. Where the time gets spent is when the client says no freckles. I've had my full upper body covered in makeup to hide my freckles. Now try to put a dress on without smudging it. It's a 2 plus helper job. Between lighting changes, I used to help the stylists do the clothing changes, and sometimes I'd fill in for a no show model.

Transwomen tend to be on the more girly side. If they weren't, then they may have been able to deal with the female side of their nature without needing to transition. Yeah, not all transgenders need to transition. Those that do need to transition, need it to keep functioning.
 

I find it interesting that my posts came off as male. I do tend to go into guy mode when I'm on this forum and doing other guy things. This forum turns on the logic side of my brain. What else seemed male (serious question)? This is something I'm trying to change as my feminine side comes out more and more but I still have years of trying to hide the female side that I'm trying to let go of.
I'll often find myself sitting "dainty" then realize I'm out in public, sit like a male then realize that I'm not sitting like a girl, and go back to the way I first was sitting; legs/feet up on the chair under one side of me or feet together etc.

It would interesting to tape myself doing something girly or something manly and see if my mannerisms change. These can make the difference in being called he vs she.

You would be surprised at how often girls will talk about PMS or menstrual cramps when they think they are talking to a girl. Never had a conversation like that as a guy. Earlier this morning a women said to me "Honey... don't even get me started on that. That time of the month just started for me." To which I replied "I hate it when my bitch is on the rag; no pussy for a week!"... :) well not really I told her about how I cry in public now due to hormones. When people see a girl crying they react differently then a guy to say the least but I get quite upset when the store runs out of chocolate ice cream! Moral of the story when your sig other is upset over little things take it seriously; it doesn't feel little to her.   


I understand where you say you need to transition, I felt like I was acting my whole life, hiding by being overly macho. Things like electronics came before puberty when I was still happy and now in my 30's all my old hobbies like this, ham radio, and artistic hobbies have all come back and my other hobbies like MMA(It doesn't hurt to get thrown into the walls of it), tae kwon do, and adrenaline sports. I have almost no desire to anyways, not like I could, my muscles are totally gone replaced by soft arms and legs. That's what men are for: to lift heavy shit so we don't have to! That and earning money so we can stay at home!

I wonder what would happen if I started crying because the electronics store doesn't have what I want in stock? At some point this will happen and I'll post in the "What did you get for free today because you cried in front of the sales people" thread. Crying actually feels good since I wasn't able to do it for so long.


Transwomen are different then regular women in that most are hyper feminine. For our whole lives we couldn't act girly so we now have to cram it all in. Putting on make up and looking pretty is a release rather than a chore. Plus I think they just are that way; I hate wearing pants when I can wear a dress, especially in summer. Having your butt touch things takes some getting used to especially if wearing a thong or lace!
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: @rt on July 22, 2018, 10:46:32 am
There’s always Jeri Ellsworth.

Take a girl, give her a strength in a “guy thing”, and you get that with all of the typical girl strengths as well.
Technical fields probably miss out on a fair bit if it’s lack of encouragement that deters, etc.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: NiHaoMike on July 22, 2018, 02:55:43 pm
There’s always Jeri Ellsworth.

Take a girl, give her a strength in a “guy thing”, and you get that with all of the typical girl strengths as well.
Technical fields probably miss out on a fair bit if it’s lack of encouragement that deters, etc.
Or more recently Micah Elizabeth Scott and Sarah Petkus.
Title: Re: Why do people assume if youre a girl that you don't understand electronics?
Post by: Beamin on July 22, 2018, 06:23:10 pm
There’s always Jeri Ellsworth.

Take a girl, give her a strength in a “guy thing”, and you get that with all of the typical girl strengths as well.
Technical fields probably miss out on a fair bit if it’s lack of encouragement that deters, etc.
Or more recently Micah Elizabeth Scott and Sarah Petkus.


That's who I was thinking of. Although in the first video I saw I thought she was a guy from her voice.


She builds crazy complex things fast. She seems self taught although I could be wrong.