General > General Technical Chat
Why do "programmers" call themselves... "engineers"?!
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sleemanj:
A bridge engineer takes requirements, designs a structure to meet those requirements, overseas the implementation of that design, and confirms that the result meets the requirements.

A bridge builder implements a bridge design.

A software engineer takes requirements, designs a system to meet those requirements, overseas the implementation of that design, and confirms that the result meets the requirements.

A programmer implements a system design.

Sometimes software engineers are also programmers, and if not almost certainly were programmers initially. 

Can the same be said for bridge engineers, I'm not sure.


james_s:
I've done both hardware and software, I was called an "engineer" in both cases. Software engineers design and build software, how is that different from a hardware engineer who designs and builds hardware? It takes a lot of knowledge and a certain personality type to do well at either one. A novice can't just push a bunch of keys and end up with working software any more than they can throw a bunch of components at a breadboard and end up with working hardware.

Designing and implementing a complex software product is every bit as demanding as designing a complex piece of hardware or designing a building or bridge that is functional and safe. An engineer's job is to see the big picture, and use their arsenal of knowledge and creativity to come up with solutions to problems at hand. I think a lot of people who have not done real world software development have no idea the amount of depth there is. Just like designing hardware there are zillions of ways to accomplish the same thing, each with their own unique pitfalls and challenges. Knowing the language is only a small part of the puzzle, the real talent is in thinking up solutions that are elegant, functional, reliable, scaleable, testable and maintainable.
VK3DRB:
In Australia you cannot call yourself a medical doctor unless you are qualified. Or even a plumber unless you are qualified. But anyone can call themselves an engineer, even though they may have no qualifications or experience. The US model should be adopted here in law where you can only call yourself an engineer if you have a degree in engineering.

With programmers, they are not engineers unless they also possess an engineering degree. Do they understand control theory? Fourier analysis? Generally, no. Likewise, how many electronics engineers know how to program properly, employing good embedded programming practices? From my experience, very few.

That being said, one of the smartest "engineers" I have ever worked with did not have a degree, but was a technician. He went on to get his degree. But the dumbest "engineer" I ever met said they had a degree. He was fired after 9 months of uselessness in the job. I am certain his qualifications were fraudulent.

Final point: The model that France uses is best in the world in my opinion, where you have to train to be a technician before you can train to be an engineer. Too many engineers elsewhere without practical knowledge of experience know sweet stuff all about the real world. The worst are those who think they know everything.
james_s:

--- Quote from: VK3DRB on November 16, 2019, 07:37:31 am ---In Australia you cannot call yourself a medical doctor unless you are qualified. Or even a plumber unless you are qualified. But anyone can call themselves an engineer, even though they may have no qualifications or experience. The US model should be adopted here in law where you can only call yourself an engineer if you have a degree in engineering.

--- End quote ---

Huh? There is no requirement in the US to have a degree in order to be called an engineer. If you want to call yourself a PE then you need to have an engineering degree but anyone can have a job with the title of engineer in most states. There are a few states that have tighter regulations on this but it ends up just sounding snooty and ridiculous. Personally I think degrees and titles are already overrated, I have seen very little correlation between the degrees and certifications a person holds and their level of knowledge or practical ability. Not that education is ever a bad thing, but I've encountered a lot of people with very impressive degrees who were somehow useless in terms of actual practical abilities. Likewise I've worked with some completely self taught people who were absolutely brilliant. If someone engineers things I'm not about to try to tell them they can't be called an engineer. I'm ok with titles like PE specifically denoting a degreed engineer though.
Karel:
It all boils down to this:

The cost involved to patch hardware is much higher than software.
This has lowered (and sometimes completely removed) the quality requirements of software development.

Good software development can be like engineering. Unfortunately, it's very rare because of the "release quick, fix later"
motto of most companies.
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