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| Why do "programmers" call themselves... "engineers"?! |
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| hamster_nz:
With a toe in both camps, this is interesting to watch :popcorn: 'Real' engineers are not perfect either. Even after we had a building collapse due to design flaws, 'real' engineers still designed and approved obviously flawed designs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTV_Building https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/113226624/new-engineer-spotted-alleged-defects-in-christchurch-highrise-from-the-street |
| VK3DRB:
--- Quote from: Karel on November 16, 2019, 08:05:47 am ---...Good software development can be like engineering. Unfortunately, it's very rare because of the "release quick, fix later" motto of most companies. --- End quote --- Very false economy. In the end it bites them in the arse. It is usually better to "Do It Right the First Time". Reality is they get their processes sorted out AFTER a mess is created. One bloke I had met for a short time prior to him leaving a company had written 50,000 lines of embedded C-code. The issue here was the company CEO and others did not have any experience with firmware development - so there were no checks and balances, no coding standards, no processes, no nothing. It was a dog's breakfast - a complete illogical mess based on little understanding of coding or how a microcontroller works. One guy who took over his "code" walked out within two weeks, saying he would rather be in jail. I foolishly took it on and it took me 18 months to fix it up. The result was 30,000 lines of structured, readable, and efficient code - and about 200 mostly serious bugs fixed along the way. I vow never to take on fixing up some idiot's code again. But a lesson learnt never to take on such a soul destroying task again. I would rather be on the dole. |
| tggzzz:
--- Quote from: hamster_nz on November 16, 2019, 10:09:58 am ---With a toe in both camps, this is interesting to watch :popcorn: --- End quote --- I've more than a mere toe in each camp :) I stand with one foot in each camp, and hop between them as necessary! It can be fun to get a coworker down the pub, and get them to try to distinguish between hardware and software. It is easy to get them to tie themself in a knot; the skill lies in dragging out that process >:D |
| vk6zgo:
--- Quote from: VK3DRB on November 16, 2019, 07:37:31 am ---In Australia you cannot call yourself a medical doctor unless you are qualified. --- End quote --- But he can call himself a "doctor" although he is only a "Bachelor of Medicine", not a "Doctor of Medicine". --- Quote ---Or even a plumber unless you are qualified. But anyone can call themselves an engineer, even though they may have no qualifications or experience. The US model should be adopted here in law where you can only call yourself an engineer if you have a degree in engineering. With programmers, they are not engineers unless they also possess an engineering degree. Do they understand control theory? Fourier analysis? Generally, no. Likewise, how many electronics engineers know how to program properly, employing good embedded programming practices? From my experience, very few. That being said, one of the smartest "engineers" I have ever worked with did not have a degree, but was a technician. He went on to get his degree. But the dumbest "engineer" I ever met said they had a degree. He was fired after 9 months of uselessness in the job. I am certain his qualifications were fraudulent. Final point: The model that France uses is best in the world in my opinion, where you have to train to be a technician before you can train to be an engineer. Too many engineers elsewhere without practical knowledge of experience know sweet stuff all about the real world. The worst are those who think they know everything. --- End quote --- |
| tpowell1830:
--- Quote from: eti on November 16, 2019, 04:26:30 am ---Let me ask this: > Why do "programmers" get referred to as "coders" in many instances? (that's like calling a poet, a "pen mover" - it very much undermines their profession, and reduces them to the lowest common denominator... I think... I can't articulate what I mean) > Why do "programmers" refer to themselves as that, when in many cases they have ZERO knowledge of the hardware which is abstracted away from them, 5 layers down at bare metal level, and ALL they know how to do is drag and drop boilerplate templates which call APIs...? > THE most irksome of all, is the sheer delusion that seems to have swept across Silicon Valley & slowly become accepted, is that "programmers" are... ENGINEERS! :-// Please read these articles; the former is well written, and also the latter, but I tend to lean toward the wording of the former, more, not sure why. Bottom line, as I see it, is this: ++ You can't grab a block of binary, sand the rust off it, throw it in a lathe and machine it into a part. ++ You can't expect to call yourself an "engineer" when the fundamental concepts (text) with which you fiddle, all day long, can be (and IS) changed on the whim of some "framework" manager, overnight. Imagine if the mass of a block of lead could be arbitrarily edited to some variable, in a second. Imagine if constants and measurements in physics could be changed to fit some formula, "just because". I am not annoyed, nor even slightly angered, or in any way fazed by the term "engineer" used to refer to code monkeys, but many others may be, and to be frank, I find it a laughably naive term to use, based on the fact that people hearing you say "I am an engineer" when what you do is fiddle with lines of text, laughable and quite insane. Yes, I know software CONTROLS things in the physical realm which are engineered, but that doesn't make the software author an engineer. Ever. Here's the articles: > https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/programmers-should-not-call-themselves-engineers/414271/ > http://nic.ferrier.me.uk/blog/2013_04/you-are-not-an-engineer --- End quote --- One cannot describe an engineer in relation to how many degrees, or type of degrees from an accredited university that a person has. An engineer is not an island unto themselves, the community of engineers grooms and shapes a budding engineer, not just at first, but forever. An engineer does not come from the dust, or necessarily from a university, but from a mindset of discipline, knowledge and continued learning. An engineer MUST approach every task with humility and accept the fact that he/she may have limitations of ability/knowledge. An engineering team is equally dependent on ALL of its members(even though, sometimes, the bulk of work is done by a few). These are a few of the aphorisms that I use on a daily basis in doing my job as an engineer. EDIT: Forgot to say the punch line; Yes, software engineers are engineers if the above are true, especially number 3. |
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