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Why do "programmers" call themselves... "engineers"?!
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hamster_nz:
Stack Exchange snippets are the programmer's equivilent of an AppNote reference circuit design and PCB layout.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: magic on November 16, 2019, 09:32:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on November 16, 2019, 06:56:51 pm ---It would also help if you addressed the substantive points.

--- End quote ---
Nothing can help because I don't think it's a serious discussion :)

But if you want me to honestly elaborate on your errors,


--- Quote from: tggzzz on November 16, 2019, 05:31:09 pm ---
--- Quote ---how intel can issue bugfixes to its x86 processors that are installed on motherboards in customers premises
Because the CPU runs software, duh. Or by recall, like the FDIV bug.

--- End quote ---
No, they issue microcode updates which change the processor's capabilities and operation.
They would have made it unnecessary to recall processors because of the FDIV bug.
--- End quote ---
This is exactly what I said, the CPU runs software so they send you a different software if something goes wrong. Kinda like firmware update to your cloud toaster when it kernel-panics on attempt to join your WLAN so you can't eject the toast.
And yes, a microcode update would allow the FDIV bug to be fixed, if that stupid lookup table in the FPU were turned into SRAM. Which is more die area and power consumption in an already hot and crowded subsystem, so I totally doubt that anyone does it in practice. But modern x86 is of course not something that's going to appear on zeptobars tomorrow so we may inconclusively argue about it until death parts us.


--- Quote from: tggzzz on November 16, 2019, 05:31:09 pm ---I wondered if someone would pick up on that, but it would be more enlightening if you addresses the substance of the key point.
--- End quote ---
You ask me to stop nitpicking about formal languages and say once more that a description of some FSM, uploadable to some hardware for execution, is software?
:horse:

--- End quote ---

It is clear you have absolutely zero understanding of what microcode Is and isn't. I suggest you look at the AMD 2900 series and Intel 3000 series processors, and try to understand how to use them. Start by telling us whether they are 2/4/8/16/32/64 bit processors.

Hint: I once designed a 2900 based machine that wasn't a processor in any conventional sense - it had zero RAM.

As for FSMs, what makes you think they are a software or electronic artifact?

I once wrote a report on whether an FSM implemented in logic running at 4000psi should be replaced by a micro. Conclusion: no.
tggzzz:

--- Quote from: hamster_nz on November 16, 2019, 09:35:34 pm ---Stack Exchange snippets are the programmer's equivilent of an AppNote reference circuit design and PCB layout.

--- End quote ---

... Only on a good day!

Mostly they are only suitable for "which button do I press?" questions :(
Cerebus:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on November 16, 2019, 09:49:22 pm ---I once wrote a report on whether an FSM implemented in logic running at 4000psi should be replaced by a micro. Conclusion: no.

--- End quote ---

<Chuckle>

I've occasionally threatened some computers with being reprogrammed with a pipe wrench...

It's probably worth pointing out at this juncture that the first computer programmers did their programming by making changes on plugboards.
Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on November 16, 2019, 09:17:31 pm ---What we commonly call "software engineering" these days has not much to do with what you just said above.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps; I'm just a stickler on labels, and refuse to call script-kiddies "programmers", or "contractors" substituting toilet paper for wall insulation "professional builders".

It is certainly true that most of the software you'll ever encounter is utter shit.  The "this will probably blow up in your face when you are most vulnerable to failure" kind of ineptitude.
Over the entire globe, most who throw code together aren't even programmers, just aggregators hoping for the best.

I refuse to call anyone a software engineer, if I have seen them produce the kind of spit-and-bubblegum aggregations of code that I encounter daily.
I much prefer to check if they have the ability to do better; if not, then gently suggest they learn, with useful pointers.  If they refuse to learn, claim they just need to fulfill their current deadline and will do better in the future; or if they do have the ability and just didn't, I shall berate their asses off, calling them the lazy cheating fucks they are.  If that makes me an asshole, I'll gladly be one.  I do expect/wish the same from others, BTW.

(Above, I'm referring to my behaviour out and about in the world, not in a workplace.  In a business environment, one should not and does not need to be an asshole, just have some authority over the devs compensation, to get the needed results.)
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