General > General Technical Chat
Why do "programmers" call themselves... "engineers"?!
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magic:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on November 17, 2019, 09:03:05 am ---Google is your friend, and gives good results for the obvious queries.

--- End quote ---
Google cannot answer why you conflate machines with their specification or how a programmable dinosaur IC running without RAM somehow makes this IC's program not a software. Or whatever it is that you claimed, because you didn't even explain your point.

You just throw examples of things that you seem to (or pretend to :P) find confusing and you assume everybody will be equally confused by them and empathically understand what you mean. I surely don't, I literally have zero insecurity about programmable FSMs, FPGAs and other software-defined hardware which doesn't use external RAM :-//
vk6zgo:

--- Quote from: VK3DRB on November 17, 2019, 06:25:30 am ---The sad thing about all this, is plumbers make more money that engineers and programmers, even though all three professions have to deal with a fair amount of crap. Based upon my own experience, many plumbers are incompetent slash-dash merchants more interested in a fast buck than doing a quality job. The problem is most immigrants have degrees, and are not interested in plumbing because they would lose face. There are just not enough qualified plumbers around... and the plumbers all know it.

If you want to make good money, abandon programming and engineering, move to Australia and become a plumber. Many running their own business clear $1,500 to $2,000 per day. One plumber I met says he only uses Uber Eats because is time is too valuable to go out and get his own take-away lunch. Never heard an engineer say that.

--- End quote ---

Blind Freddie could see this coming back in the late 1980s/early '90s.

Every time you opened a newspaper or turned on a TV, you were hit with the predictions of self-styled "fururists".
There were lists of jobs which would become extinct, & wouldn't you know it, they were all technical & trade jobs.
Everything was going to be done by computers!

Engineering subjects were abandoned at TAFE, would be Uni students all either wanted to do "Computer Science", or an MBA.

The "old guard" of Bosses who knew how things work retired, & the new ones had very little experience of the physical world, but they knew how to "get on" in the management structure.

"Voluntary redundancy" became the catchcry among the "anointed", so actual productive staff were cut.
The silly buggers couldn't "get with the program" & kept saying "but that won't work".

Government bodies stopped training apprentices, & the Private sector quickly followed suit.
Tradesmen in the traditional trades had more work than they could handle, & some "kept their heads sbove water".

Electronics Techs largely ended up working on a "gig" basis, with their wages massively reduced from the previous norm.
In the  early 2000s, I found myself working as a "tech", but basically doing the job of an assembly line worker----- hand soldering components onto boards, putting metal panels together, drilling out holes that the dummies drilled too small, & so on.

And woe betide you if you questioned their assembly methods or designs--- you were treated like an idiot, & if you persevered, became "an enemy of the people".

Anyway, that's my private rant, moving right along to today, we find that the small number of traditional tradies left can pretty much "name their own price" -----people have learnt that you can't fix a blocked dunny from a help room in India or South Africa!

Surprise, surprise, it's not "all done with computers".
tggzzz:

--- Quote from: magic on November 17, 2019, 10:15:38 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on November 17, 2019, 09:03:05 am ---Google is your friend, and gives good results for the obvious queries.

--- End quote ---
Google cannot answer why you conflate machines with their specification or how a programmable dinosaur IC running without RAM somehow makes this IC's program not a software. Or whatever it is that you claimed, because you didn't even explain your point.

--- End quote ---

The links require you to read and think, and to challenge your preconceptions. Sorry about that.


--- Quote ---You just throw examples of things that you seem to (or pretend to :P) find confusing and you assume everybody will be equally confused by them and empathically understand what you mean. I surely don't, I literally have zero insecurity about programmable FSMs, FPGAs and other software-defined hardware which doesn't use external RAM :-//

--- End quote ---

I am not in the least bit confused by the concepts. I know the grey areas, why they are there, and how to use them to advantage.

People that believe they can draw a hard simple line between hardware and software only have a superficial understanding; the better of them can overcome that to their advantage.

Now, taking your phrase "software defined hardware", is an FSM in a PAL/FPGA hardware or software?

If a part of the FSM is written in C and executes in a processor, another part is in an FPGA, and another part is discrete logic gates or a custom IC, is the FSM hardware or software? Yes, such FSMs exist, and are common in telecom and networking equipment.

To trap out another attempt to deflect the conversation with requests for "links" you could easily find yourself, start by using google for SONET and FDDI specifications. There are, of course, many other examples. No, I'm not going to (poorly) regurgitate them.
Mr. Scram:
Why do some people get so defensive about the term engineering anyway? It's a somewhat regularly recurring discussion. If you know what you're capable of and have the papers or experience to prove it, the question is why it matters at all? There's no need to be insecure about things or get defensive.

Maybe OP could define engineering, so we might understand where he's coming from.
Mr. Scram:

--- Quote from: thinkfat on November 17, 2019, 10:05:27 am ---Software Engineer: "OK, how large should this buffer be to not overrun? - Well, I could try finding out about the input specification and go from there but, meh, char[256] it is, she'll be alright".

Electrical Engineer: "OK, how large should this capacitor be on that power rail? - Well, I could calculate it from the load pattern of the connected devices, but, meh, let's put 1µ, she'll be alright".

 :-DD

--- End quote ---
You mean how rule of thumb 0.1 µF decoupling caps are use by most?
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