Author Topic: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?  (Read 7481 times)

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Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #100 on: December 21, 2019, 12:42:51 am »
"  The problem is that often that is very quickly revealed, and what do consumers do? They buy the widget any way. A good examples were Uni-T meters advertising Cat IV ratings, it was pretty obvious they did not meet the spec, but not only did their meters continue to sell but the masses came out and defended the meter.

Bottom line, the consumer is purchasing based on price almost exclusively, they then insistently complain it's low quality, it's robbing jobs from the local market, it did not meet the spec etc. "

I think consumer is much smarter than we think.  Most of these spec or regulatory requirement are not affecting them, and not paying for those "spec" is what they have chosen.  For spec that really affect them, they shall react immediately like the false capacity claimed by some battery makers. 
 

Offline I wanted a rude username

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #101 on: December 21, 2019, 12:46:51 am »
There is an analogy in supermarkets.

Hipsters complain that they exploit farmers and screw manufacturers. But they give people what they want at rewardingly low prices. The average person can eat better at a supermarket today, for less, than anywhere else at any other time in history (of course you have to read the ingredients and compare prices per unit mass/volume).

The enemies of supermarkets would go back to the "old days", replace them with grocers, delicatessens, farmers' markets, etc., with less convenience and a far higher price. Often, the groups pushing this regressive agenda are motivated by ideology or self-interest rather than by facts and hard data.

Today, young Bruno in Brazil or Tiras in Tunisia can save up to buy an oscilloscope, VNA, etc. which some idealists would dismiss as "a piece of crap", but which will let them see and measure things they would otherwise never be able to. And this is the world I want to live in.
 
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Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #102 on: December 21, 2019, 12:58:54 am »
I think consumer is much smarter than we think.  Most of these spec or regulatory requirement are not affecting them, and not paying for those "spec" is what they have chosen.  For spec that really affect them, they shall react immediately like the false capacity claimed by some battery makers.

That's probably true, but in the case of RF gear, I think this is a little different, because the consumers are less informed then they think they are. I would say that it's almost the same as selling garbage electronics to regular joe.

IMO, if you don't buy from a reputable seller (and there are actually many small-time sellers that qualify), you're going to get garbage, almost invariably.

Edit: Maybe this is just my skewed POV, and maybe those things that I do buy, thinking that I know what I'm doing, are also garbage to a more knowledgeable customer.


The enemies of supermarkets would go back to the "old days", replace them with grocers, delicatessens, farmers' markets, etc., with less convenience and a far higher price. Often, the groups pushing this regressive agenda are motivated by ideology or self-interest rather than by facts and hard data.

That is not true. I have no vested interest in the vegetable business, but I would still pay a little more and eat something less often, knowing that when I do eat it, it's healthy and it wasn't grown on a shelf with substances being injected directly in it.

A friend of mine worked on an apple (or cherry, can't remember) plant in Italy and told me his job was to drill fist size holes in trees and put fertilizer straight in. I think there is some merit to stepping back a little and thinking about weather this is what we want or not.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 01:30:30 am by jadew »
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #103 on: December 21, 2019, 01:00:01 am »
I think consumer is much smarter than we think.  Most of these spec or regulatory requirement are not affecting them, and not paying for those "spec" is what they have chosen.  For spec that really affect them, they shall react immediately like the false capacity claimed by some battery makers.

That just emphasis my point, they not purchasing believing the spec sheet, they purchasing on price.
 

Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2019, 01:06:05 am »
I think consumer is much smarter than we think.  Most of these spec or regulatory requirement are not affecting them, and not paying for those "spec" is what they have chosen.  For spec that really affect them, they shall react immediately like the false capacity claimed by some battery makers.

That just emphasis my point, they not purchasing believing the spec sheet, they purchasing on price.

Yes, you are right.  In addition, what they want is fulfilled.  Not the additional claims or disclaimers, who got time for that ? 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 03:22:06 am by all_repair »
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2019, 01:08:42 am »
I guess a lot of people here want this great golden era to come back, where everything were made, manufactured domestically.

An example just for simple very popular Simpson 260 multimeter, forget about more advanced tools like oscilloscope or even VNA.  :scared:


Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2019, 01:11:06 am »
Today, young Bruno in Brazil or Tiras in Tunisia can save up to buy an oscilloscope, VNA, etc. which some idealists would dismiss as "a piece of crap", but which will let them see and measure things they would otherwise never be able to. And this is the world I want to live in.

It's tangential, the point I'm making is that the decision to purchase is price based not a misleading spec sheet. While I don't agree in principal on falsification I don't think this is a major factor in harming the local market.

Also, I'm not convinced 'piece of crap' is justified in most cases. For the price paid it's fair quality and often better. If I pay for a cheap plastic case and that's what I receive why is this crap? That meets my requirements. Sure I would like the 1000x more expensive case but I did not pay for it (I could have but I did not). If on the other hand I pay for the premium case and I revive a cheap enclosure, yea I received crap.

The problem is caused by consumers who purchase the lowest cost widget and whine that it's crap compared to the 1000x more expensive product.
 

Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2019, 01:19:14 am »
It's tangential, the point I'm making is that the decision to purchase is price based not a misleading spec sheet. While I don't agree in principal on falsification I don't think this is a major factor in harming the local market.

For the price paid it's fair quality and often better. If I pay for a cheap plastic case and that's what I receive why is this crap? That meets my requirements. Sure I would like the 1000x more expensive case but I did not pay for it (I could have but I did not).

You are arguing against something that sits at the basis of our society: one's word.

If a seller tells you he's going to sell you the 1000x more expensive case, for the price of the cheap one, and you're getting the cheap one, you didn't get a good deal, you were conned.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2019, 01:34:38 am »
Emphasis on 'Assembled in the USA' is legal racism which company's are  exploiting in their local market.

Yes, yes. Proud to live in a racist country eating racist food.  :-+

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Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2019, 02:16:34 am »
Emphasis on 'Assembled in the USA' is legal racism which company's are  exploiting in their local market.

Yes, yes. Proud to live in a racist country eating racist food.  :-+

(Attachment Link)
If you tell what product your company make, people can make you even more proud by letting only the Buds buy them.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2019, 03:06:00 am »
You are arguing against something that sits at the basis of our society: one's word.
If a seller tells you he's going to sell you the 1000x more expensive case, for the price of the cheap one, and you're getting the cheap one, you didn't get a good deal, you were conned.

But they are not, they selling the $50 widget you compared to a 10K$ widget and comparing it's got a crappy case. I'm saying it's acceptable based on the price paid.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #111 on: December 21, 2019, 03:10:00 am »
I guess a lot of people here want this great golden era to come back, where everything were made, manufactured domestically.

An example just for simple very popular Simpson 260 multimeter, forget about more advanced tools like oscilloscope or even VNA.  :scared:



Honestly I don't think it would be THAT bad.  You would pay more for higher quality (at least I would hope they would make it higher quality!) but no matter what they would still have to price it at a price point that people will buy it.   I would be willing to pay more either way *IF* it's higher quality, has better support, and if we had right to repair bill set in stone.  Basically, I would not mind if the cost of consumer items like tools and toys went up say 2-3x, BUT that they were built with essentially life time ownership in mind.   When you look at how much money you spend on everything, items are actually a small part of that.  Its costs of living such as bills and taxes that take up most of your pay cheque.

Right now companies save a lot by outsourcing manufacturing to China, they are NOT passing those savings on to the consumer.  Just look at how expensive an Apple product is. 

If some kind of law was passed where manufacturing has to be done locally immediately, I could see the prices of everything skyrocket, but it would stabilize.  I don't think they would go as low as they are now, but with all these new jobs created it would overall be better for the economy.  More tax payers and less people on social services could even mean that taxes could come down which is one of the largest costs of living so at the end you would have more money.  (at least in theory... we all know governments would never actually lower taxes).

That said there is nothing wrong with the availability of really cheap low quality stuff but it would be nice if we still had access to the higher quality stuff too.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #112 on: December 21, 2019, 03:17:22 am »
If some kind of law was passed where manufacturing has to be done locally immediately, I could see the prices of everything skyrocket, but it would stabilize.  I don't think they would go as low as they are now, but with all these new jobs created it would overall be better for the economy.  More tax payers and less people on social services could even mean that taxes could come down which is one of the largest costs of living so at the end you would have more money.  (at least in theory... we all know governments would never actually lower taxes).

I think what would happen is that everyone would cheer, clap, dance, and pat themselves on the back, talk about how they were leading the way etc. Then, they would hop on the internet buying cheap widgets as they currently do shipped to their door from the international markets.
 

Online Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #113 on: December 21, 2019, 03:26:24 am »
There is an analogy in supermarkets.

Hipsters complain that they exploit farmers and screw manufacturers. But they give people what they want at rewardingly low prices. The average person can eat better at a supermarket today, for less, than anywhere else at any other time in history (of course you have to read the ingredients and compare prices per unit mass/volume).

The enemies of supermarkets would go back to the "old days", replace them with grocers, delicatessens, farmers' markets, etc., with less convenience and a far higher price. Often, the groups pushing this regressive agenda are motivated by ideology or self-interest rather than by facts and hard data.

Today, young Bruno in Brazil or Tiras in Tunisia can save up to buy an oscilloscope, VNA, etc. which some idealists would dismiss as "a piece of crap", but which will let them see and measure things they would otherwise never be able to. And this is the world I want to live in.

I don't think we agree that the supermarkets are giving customers the lowest possible price. Just because they tell you that on the TV doesn't mean it's true.
 

Offline I wanted a rude username

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #114 on: December 21, 2019, 04:44:35 am »
I ... didn't say they do?
 
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Offline unitedatoms

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #115 on: December 21, 2019, 05:29:22 am »
Quote
Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?

This is a political question about one nation, Chinese. Their history is based on one success story of discovery of mass production (First emperor and his factories with low cost iron arrow heads). Mass production has a value, that certain recipies have some cost effect when being scaled. That is their core belief. A little different from say, Japanese belief, that certain long standing focus of a singular person is an answer to any problem. The western values are not much different, the belief is that hard work (read, high cost) is worth an effort, because there is a project of building of heaven on earth. Each of three is mild madness, on which the economies stand.

The answer is in understanding of transferability of recipies, justification of effort and how the society is proving the goals being reached.

China is wrong thinking that recipies are transferrable as information entity. The real recipies are infinite. They are never are separatable from environment where an artifacts are made. Cost is not everything. Crap is crap.

Japanese are wrong thinking, that focus is worthy. Because the practitioner will eventually die of old age. So the art will be lost.

West is has advantage being mad about effort. So no one proved that heaven on earth project has failed. That's why we have exorbitant prices on parts. Because people are ready to pay for it. To make things happen in right way, no matter what.

So to answer the quoted question. Because so many of the people, do not realize how weak most of ideologies really are.
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Online tautech

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #116 on: December 21, 2019, 06:34:24 am »
If some kind of law was passed where manufacturing has to be done locally immediately, I could see the prices of everything skyrocket, but it would stabilize.  I don't think they would go as low as they are now, but with all these new jobs created it would overall be better for the economy.  More tax payers and less people on social services could even mean that taxes could come down which is one of the largest costs of living so at the end you would have more money.  (at least in theory... we all know governments would never actually lower taxes).
Yeah, Trumps dream ^.
Instead tariffs are implemented to dissuade buyers from buying imported goods and importers margins get cut to absorb tariffs such is the inter-brand marketplace competition. Buyers win, gubbermints win with increased tariff revenue to spend on their hobby horses.

Alternatively, multi-national corporates raise their middle finger to producing in a country and take their production facilities elsewhere where they will be welcomed with open arms for the new employment opportunities they offer.

There is no simple solution.
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Online SilverSolder

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #117 on: December 21, 2019, 06:45:25 pm »
If some kind of law was passed where manufacturing has to be done locally immediately, I could see the prices of everything skyrocket, but it would stabilize.  I don't think they would go as low as they are now, but with all these new jobs created it would overall be better for the economy.  More tax payers and less people on social services could even mean that taxes could come down which is one of the largest costs of living so at the end you would have more money.  (at least in theory... we all know governments would never actually lower taxes).
Yeah, Trumps dream ^.
Instead tariffs are implemented to dissuade buyers from buying imported goods and importers margins get cut to absorb tariffs such is the inter-brand marketplace competition. Buyers win, gubbermints win with increased tariff revenue to spend on their hobby horses.

Alternatively, multi-national corporates raise their middle finger to producing in a country and take their production facilities elsewhere where they will be welcomed with open arms for the new employment opportunities they offer.

There is no simple solution.

Each person/family/business only has so much disposable income.  If the prices of some goods go up (e.g. due to tariffs), what do they do?
If they HAVE to have it, they will pay more (and have to buy less of something else to make up for it, which is damaging to the rest of the economy).  If they don't HAVE to have it, they might buy something else instead, something that makes them equally happy.  Which is not damaging to the economy, but affects those that LIKE the tariffed products disproportionately to those who don't care.

 

Online james_s

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2019, 07:15:42 pm »
"  The problem is that often that is very quickly revealed, and what do consumers do? They buy the widget any way. A good examples were Uni-T meters advertising Cat IV ratings, it was pretty obvious they did not meet the spec, but not only did their meters continue to sell but the masses came out and defended the meter.

Bottom line, the consumer is purchasing based on price almost exclusively, they then insistently complain it's low quality, it's robbing jobs from the local market, it did not meet the spec etc. "

I think consumer is much smarter than we think.  Most of these spec or regulatory requirement are not affecting them, and not paying for those "spec" is what they have chosen.  For spec that really affect them, they shall react immediately like the false capacity claimed by some battery makers.

The thing is, it costs nothing to not lie about the specs. If I buy a "100MHz" oscilloscope and find out it's only capable of 50MHz I'm going to be upset that I was lied to, even if the price is quite reasonable for a 50MHz scope. I might still buy it if it will meet my needs and the price is fair and there is no reasonable alternative but I'm still not going to be happy. Maybe lying about specs really does boost sales in China, I fully admit I know virtually nothing about Chinese culture and mindset but I don't think it does them any favors in the west. I'm hopeful that their business culture eventually shifts as they start to realize this.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2019, 07:22:28 pm »
I think you put way too much importance on something everyone seriously interested knows is not to be relied on.
It's common knowledge that specs on cheap Chinese stuff are BS, and I don't know anyone who buys such stuff based on them. They ignore them, go watch a few reviews, and decide based on that. The specs just provide for a good laugh based on how wrong they were, and that's about it.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 07:24:44 pm by Kilrah »
 

Online james_s

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #120 on: December 21, 2019, 08:22:15 pm »
I don't buy based on specs because I know the specs are usually pure BS. That doesn't make me any happier about it, if I had the choice between two identical devices, one with bogus specs and one that was honest, I'd buy the honest one every time even if it cost 10% more.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #121 on: December 21, 2019, 08:52:40 pm »
I don't buy based on specs because I know the specs are usually pure BS. That doesn't make me any happier about it, if I had the choice between two identical devices, one with bogus specs and one that was honest, I'd buy the honest one every time even if it cost 10% more.

I don't disagree with you that the behavior of lying on spec sheets is bad and we know the reality. However, all-most all consumers based on my observed behavior will purchase the 10% cheaper version.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #122 on: December 21, 2019, 11:30:03 pm »
And usually the honest one doesn't cost 10% more, but 200% more...

Not saying it's OK either, just that's how it is and since none of us is going to change it that we just have to be aware and deal with it.

 

Offline ogden

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #123 on: December 21, 2019, 11:39:59 pm »
I don't buy based on specs because I know the specs are usually pure BS.
What are you talking about? - eBay/Ali "products" designed by hobbyist in best case? Everything is fine with specs of lab grade equipment from "big names" like HP Keysight, R&S, Anristu and so on.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #124 on: December 22, 2019, 12:13:14 am »
Many EEVBlog forum members are guilty to have heard instinct. It only takes a prominent forum member to make a post about some wonderful piece of cheap shit he got and everyone will rush to buy same shit and empty the sellers stock in no time. Good for the seller.
Herd not heard.
 


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