Author Topic: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?  (Read 17458 times)

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Offline ogden

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #150 on: December 22, 2019, 10:26:04 pm »
Same with batteries that claim 5,000mAh but can't manage 1,200, it's flat out fraud. Cheap isn't a license to pull numbers out of your ass. If you're going to claim a spec, at least make it close to reality.
LOL. That is ridiculous to complain that Average Joe in his garage in China manufacture fake batteries with fake capacity numbers.

Are you on drugs or are you having difficulty comprehending English? What are you even talking about and how did you get that from what I said?
No need for insults if you are out of arguments. In case you did not know, everybody can roll-out his own battery brand (or fake existing one) by buying customized shrink sleeves and packaging. It does not cost so much. Just search "Printed PVC Shrink Sleeve Label for Battery". That is what I was talking about. When you buy obscure batteries that are "not mainstream" - you have to be careful. I am sorry that you did not know that.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 10:28:32 pm by ogden »
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #151 on: December 22, 2019, 11:32:23 pm »
As an insight I just bought a laptop form the 3rd biggest PC manufacturer, which is a Western company. On my model they advertise "up to 10h22 battery life with productivity apps, up to 7h24 watching Netflix".
The laptop has a 51Wh battery. That means for 10h22 the machine should not be using more than 4.9W average. By doing a fresh Windows install, all updates and drivers up, manufactuer tool set to max energy savings, Windows set to max energy savings, GPU control panel with all energy saving features enabled, backlight at minimum, WiFi off and no app running bar the monitoring one telling me the power usage aka absolutely nothing being done in the lowest possible energy consumption state I never see it use less than 5.5W. Do the slightest thing and it bumps to >10W. In practice, even trying to save as much as you can if you're actually doing something with the thing and not let it sit on a table it's absolutely impossible to get more than 3.5-4h battery life. If you push it a bit you're at 1h max.

It's not just the Chinese. If I search for my model the web is full of people who have been complaining about it for a couple of months since the model was launched, yet the marketing crap is still the same on the site. Support has been playing the usual game of "trying to do something for you" by sending replacement batteries to people who complained when it is obviously not going to fix anything since the numbers just can not check out.

Several years ago I had another laptop by the 2nd biggest PC manufacturer - if you were to use it to its full potential on battery it would just shut off on you. Same thing, went through support, "oh we'll send you another battery", did the exact same thing, I took out my PSUs and meters and it only took 10 minutes to see that at full CPU+GPU load the laptop was drawing 6.8A, and the overcurrent protection in the battery trips at 6.5A. The freaking morons likely reused a battery design they already had on a new machine, and nobody in the engineering, testing, QA, QC,... was able to see that it just wasn't suitable  :palm: :palm: :scared: :scared:

Again we're talking about full price, Western design premium products here, not Chinese crap. And as a consumer you have no more recourse unless you want to spend a month on it.

 

Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #152 on: December 23, 2019, 01:15:28 am »

Overall, although jadew has some points (i.e. the post isn't as bad say treez), it would've been nice to know about the tracking generator project in the first post...I can't honestly make myself believe this question was asked in good faith.
I can.
When a product is claimed to be suitable to 1.5 GHz usage then the dozens of buyers of them here on EEVblog report they are quite accurate to 300 MHz but not beyond it would only seem fair that it was instead advertised as suitable for 300 MHz usage.

I think you need to join the nanoVNA forum to be better informed.  There are many many RF nerds there.  The biggest complaint is not that they were cheated, it is the screen is too small.  This is not a so-called "product", it was designed and made by Ham, and for Ham. The plot, traces and graph are there for all to see.  Almost everything about the nanoVNA is open sourced.  The OP product does not stand a chance if it is targeting headon with nanoVNA as it shall be fighting an army of PHD, active and retired university professors, and at least one Nobel Laureate there.  These are the happy nuts there.  The discussion there is not complaining about the shortcomings, but is in overcoming the shortcomings.  There is no false advertising by nanoVNA, maybe some dropshippers may mislabel their sale.  I hope you guys see the pattern and the value of what the cheap gears from China can enable, and has enabled.
There is a party doing the misinformation, it is not the nanoVNA chaps.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 01:29:02 am by all_repair »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #153 on: December 23, 2019, 04:40:22 am »

Overall, although jadew has some points (i.e. the post isn't as bad say treez), it would've been nice to know about the tracking generator project in the first post...I can't honestly make myself believe this question was asked in good faith.
I can.
When a product is claimed to be suitable to 1.5 GHz usage then the dozens of buyers of them here on EEVblog report they are quite accurate to 300 MHz but not beyond it would only seem fair that it was instead advertised as suitable for 300 MHz usage.
I think you need to join the nanoVNA forum to be better informed.
Really ? Are the several threads about them here not sufficient to get a good feeling if a product meets its claims or not ?
Quote
There is no false advertising by nanoVNA, maybe some dropshippers may mislabel their sale.

Randomly selected link from Aliexpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000378025298.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.3aad4d7fDDDswD&algo_pvid=660e008c-3c5e-41a1-ad13-4452dfb46536&algo_expid=660e008c-3c5e-41a1-ad13-4452dfb46536-2&btsid=50cc38ce-7e91-4f84-bd5e-fe4a6ac32e27&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_9,searchweb201603_53

And yet you must also not have read the post from OwO just yesterday confirming nanoVNA is at best a 300 MHz device.
And just in case you weren't aware he's been involved in its development.
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Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #154 on: December 23, 2019, 04:59:03 am »
and what part of the details they gave are wrong?  and if you are really someone who wants to buy, even at USD50, would you not  look for more information on the internet for the various frequency points that were highlighted? and also reviews from users? 

I do not think OWO was involved the development of nanoVNA that are selling now. OWO correct me if I am wrong.  He is being subcontracted to make a version to compete with probably the newer versions of nanoVNA.  I have no conflict of interest at all.  Just a happy nut that bought two sets, and eagering waiting for the next version with higher frequency and bigger screen.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 07:13:40 am by all_repair »
 
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Offline jklasdf

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #155 on: December 23, 2019, 06:13:41 am »
Overall, although jadew has some points (i.e. the post isn't as bad say treez), it would've been nice to know about the tracking generator project in the first post...I can't honestly make myself believe this question was asked in good faith.

I think I made it pretty clear from the original post that I'm directly affected by this, as proven by the following quote (from the opening post):
I'm kind of annoyed by this, because I've been bit by it several times already and I have suspicions that some of these sellers are also behind a recent attack against my server.

Why is this happening and how can you work against it - is it even worth it?

The TG was just one of the examples I could have given, so it's not the only product I canceled because of unfair competition of this type.

Nowhere in the original post is your tracking generator project mentioned. The "I've been bit by it several times already" thing could refer to anything: a multimeter that you bought that's certified as IEC CAT VIII++ 10000V rated but clearly isn't, dodgy power cables you bought with too thin wiring, etc. None of these things are great, and if that was all that your original post was about, I don't think you'd have too many disagreements here.

The only thing that might allude to your tracking generator project is the part about other sellers supposedly trying to attack your servers, which I glanced over originally and I don't think many people have commented on so far, but let me be the first to say: step back for a minute and think about this a bit. The nanoVNA is in a completely different market than yours, and it's doubtful any reseller is even aware of your project or cares. The market overlap of someone looking for a clean $300-400 tracking generator to go with a much-more-expensive, lab-grade spectrum analyzer is simply non-existent for the $40 nanoVNA. The nanoVNA is in the same market as the extremely cheap "antenna analyzers" and SWR meters so popular with hams. I don't doubt some people may have told you that they wouldn't consider your project because of the nanoVNA, but these people probably never actually should've been looking at your project in the first place and likely should've been looking in a completely different market than yours. The likelihood that some nanoVNA reseller was aware of your project, saw it as a threat, and then tried to attack your server is pretty small. Opportunistic drive-by attacks on any potentially unsecured server are a lot more common than most people would expect.

And now more about the nanoVNA part of your post. (You may claim otherwise, but it's going to be hard to convince me that your original post wasn't a sob story about how the "unfair" nanoVNA ruined your tracking generator project. When I said you do have some points, I mean I don't like blatantly mis-advertised products like IEC CAT VIII++ 10000V or misrated batteries either. I don't think the nanoVNA falls under that category of products though, sorry.)  Let's take a look at the history of the nanoVNA and various advertisements (by resellers).

The original nanoVNA was designed by Edy555, for "the category of hobbies" and with "no guarantee of performance" according to the google translation from japanese of https://ttrf.tk/kit/nanovna/

Even the current official github https://github.com/ttrftech/NanoVNA says very little about the performance of the nanoVNA, although the software has been updated to also use harmonics to allow frequencies above 300MHz. (I do agree with many previous posts that it's not great that a lot of resellers don't advertise/follow the open source spirit of this projects and similar projects like the AVR transistor tester.) The hugen version of the nanoVNA (https://github.com/hugen79/NanoVNA-H) was the first to use harmonics to measure above 300MHz, but fairly clearly states that it uses "the odd harmonic extension of si5351 to support the measurement frequency up to 900MHz", and also complains about "bad clones". I think this is also the original source of the (not-very-well-specified) 70dB "dynamic" (whatever that means) for 50K-300MHz claim, 50dB of "dynamics" for 300-600MHz, and 40dB of "dynamics" for 600-900MHz.

Now let's take a look at some of the text of various resellers:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000378025298.html from tautech from aliexpress
From my 1st two google results:
https://www.amazon.com/50KHz-900MHz-Vector-Network-Analyzer-Antenna/dp/B07WJ3FJD9/ from amazon
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nanovna-50KHz-900MHz-Vector-Network-Analyzer-VNA-VHF-UV-UHF-HF-Antenna-Analyzer-/362727846597 from eBay.


The aliexpress listing says that it uses "the odd-order harmonic expansion of si5351 to support the measurement frequency of 900MHz", almost a direct copy from the hugen github text. The amazon listing has the exact same text. The eBay listing (which also has pictures of scantily-clad pin-up girls -- very relevant to vector network analysis) says nothing about using harmonics for higher frequencies, although does refer to them as "extended" and needing "extended firmware".

All of the listings mention using an si5351 as the signal source. None of the listings mention that the output is a square wave, that the output is not as clean as shown here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/why-do-so-many-people-here-go-nuts-over-garbage-gear-from-china/?action=dlattach;attach=892652;image, or that jadew's tracking generator + lab grade spectrum analyzer would give much better performance if you could actually purchase it.

You could claim that not stating that the output is a square wave is a lie of omission (and you wouldn't be wrong), but compared to IEC CAT VIII++ 10000V multimeters or misrated batteries, this is really more of a yawn for me, and not the blatantly "unfair" competition that jadew claims. (RF instruments are notoriously underspecified anyways with specifications that don't tell the whole story, and this includes top lab-grade instruments also.)

The elephant in the room is this: for someone with complete knowledge of the nanoVNA's shortcomings, would the nanoVNA's existence still prevent someone from being interested in jadew's product or is it only with its "unfair" advertising that the nanoVNA appears as "competition"? I would argue that the two products were never competing with each other in the first place.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #156 on: December 23, 2019, 06:25:17 am »
Take any Dyson product.

I'd say I'm perfectly happy with my Dyson products. Do they live up to the hype or even the specs? I don't know, but given the form factor, they are the best, that's what matters.
I have to cram my full Keysight test suite, computer, second monitor, soldering gears, CNC suite (which includes a Dyson hair dryer and a Dyson vacuum), other tools and my 200lbs self into a 1.8m*1.8m cubicle at work, and nothing fit my needs better than Dyson tools.
To reach my target size constraints, I've already spent tens of thousands of dollars on PXI test gears, JBC soldering station and Metcal hot air, all at a huge premium for being small and precise. Dropping a few hundreds more on a vastly small vacuum is more than worth it.

I'm also very happy with my Dyson vacuums, I have one conventional upright and one cordless one. The normal retail price is a bit crazy but I bought mine on sale and have been very happy with them, they're the only bagless vacuums I've ever used that work worth a crap.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #157 on: December 23, 2019, 06:40:00 am »
@blueskull have you moved yet?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline jadewTopic starter

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #158 on: December 23, 2019, 08:00:58 am »
Nowhere in the original post is your tracking generator project mentioned. The "I've been bit by it several times already" thing could refer to anything: a multimeter that you bought that's certified as IEC CAT VIII++ 10000V rated but clearly isn't, dodgy power cables you bought with too thin wiring, etc. None of these things are great, and if that was all that your original post was about, I don't think you'd have too many disagreements here.

The only thing that might allude to your tracking generator project is the part about other sellers supposedly trying to attack your servers, which I glanced over originally and I don't think many people have commented on so far (...)

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've only just glanced over everything, and because of that you haven't understood yet that the TG is NOT the only project of mine that was affected by this. Was I supposed to list them all? I didn't even want to mention that one.

The question I raised stands on its own, so there was no need to reveal that I'm hindered by this in any way, BUT I DID IT ANYWAY. The fact that you failed to get that from the context, is on you, not on me, so please stop insinuating that I may have some alteria motives. I've made no secret of my dislike for these products, or that they're interfering with my business.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #159 on: December 23, 2019, 09:12:05 am »
Was I supposed to list them all? I didn't even want to mention that one.
Yes, because as mentioned in the case of the TG there is nothing to suggest any actual link between the nanoVNA example you brought and you thinking the TG not to be viable, so now we think it might be the same for the other cases.

The question I raised stands on its own, so there was no need to reveal that I'm hindered by this in any way, BUT I DID IT ANYWAY.
It was totally obvious from the first post that the rant wasn't innocuous and was posted because you felt directly concerned.
 
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Offline jadewTopic starter

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #160 on: December 23, 2019, 09:43:15 am »
Was I supposed to list them all? I didn't even want to mention that one.
Yes, because as mentioned in the case of the TG there is nothing to suggest any actual link between the nanoVNA example you brought and you thinking the TG not to be viable, so now we think it might be the same for the other cases.

I already mentioned that I ran a poll and did my homework. I also mentioned that this was not about the TG (project on which I have given up already), but about whatever future projects I may have. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the premise is wrong, and I'd like to know which part of the causality chain is tripping you off.

The question I raised stands on its own, so there was no need to reveal that I'm hindered by this in any way, BUT I DID IT ANYWAY.
It was totally obvious from the first post that the rant wasn't innocuous and was posted because you felt directly concerned.

That is exactly my point. I never tried to hide that, which is what that user was suggesting.


Edit:
For those just dropping in, the premise was that differences in how law is applied creates an uneven playing field, which favors shady practices for sellers outside of the local market, which in turn creates unfair competition for local manufacturers and sellers, because they have to compete against fake specifications.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 09:51:29 am by jadew »
 

Offline 001

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #161 on: December 23, 2019, 03:05:03 pm »
Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?

Because You can`t get low quality gear from Antarctica. Yep  :-DD
 
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #162 on: December 25, 2019, 01:51:48 pm »
Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?

Because You can`t get low quality gear from Antarctica. Yep  :-DD

low quality gear in Antarctica sounds like a BAD IDEA.
 
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Offline m3vuv

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #163 on: January 23, 2020, 11:04:39 am »
Did you see the advert for dyson vacume cleaners,claiming they were cutting there carbon footprint by not using carbon brushes,what a load of bollox!,made me want to puke!!!,wonder how many idiots fell for it?? beggers belife.
 

Online bd139

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #164 on: January 23, 2020, 11:08:51 am »
James Dyson is a cunt so that doesn't surprise me.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #165 on: January 23, 2020, 11:12:17 am »
Excuse me, Sir James Dyson.
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 
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Online bd139

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #166 on: January 23, 2020, 11:23:42 am »
Sir cunt :)
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #167 on: January 23, 2020, 01:15:23 pm »
Sir cunt :)

How did "cunt" end up being an insult in Britain?  -  Usually, they are quite pleasant contraptions...
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #168 on: January 24, 2020, 12:43:28 am »
Sir cunt :)

How did "cunt" end up being an insult in Britain?  -  Usually, they are quite pleasant contraptions...
Cunts are useful. Except cunts as big as him!

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Offline nardev

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #169 on: January 24, 2020, 01:00:22 am »
It's a trace price/quality/usage.

I'm pretty ok if certain things are not great quality because the price is quite low and the purpose and usage doesn't require things to be any better.

Though, after 2. WW, Germany had similar problem, "Made in Germany" was seen as poor, mas production etc. And in a decade or so, they changed the perception. Now we all know what we expect from "Made in Germany"

It's maybe taking bit more time but Made in China doesn't mean the same as it used to be 15 years ago.

Every day there is less and less common usage products better in USA/Germany/EU/Japan than in China.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #170 on: January 24, 2020, 11:32:56 am »
"Made in Germany" is a British label. ;) Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany.
 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #171 on: January 24, 2020, 02:43:28 pm »
"Made in Germany" is a British label. ;) Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Germany.

That backfired very badly... ;D
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