| General > General Technical Chat |
| Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China? |
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| BillB:
--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pm ---Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler. --- End quote --- I believe that this is an incorrect assumption as there is no singular market for any product. As other posters have noted, there is more than one market for test equipment, VNAs or whatever and to again repeat the previous sentiments, competition is always good. The growth of low cost segment does not necessarily 1) affect any other segment nor 2) need to affect any other segment negatively. A low cost offering introduces more people to the product which GROWS the markets for all segments (new users will then upgrade to higher cost units for better performance). Furthermore, it fosters competition and ensures the market leaders keep innovating and offering value. |
| jadew:
--- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm --- --- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 06:21:06 pm ---You keep pushing the idea that it's food from the heavens, when I just showed you that it's not. --- End quote --- I say that NanoVNA works upto 300MHz, provided screenshot, you did not show anything that disproves that. --- End quote --- Ok... first of all, let's point out that you agree that it only works for 1/3 of the advertised bandwidth (which supports the points I was making on the actual topic of this thread). Second of all, I'm going to disagree with that too, because look at these harmonics: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/attachment/1707/0/IMG_0564.JPG That's a 10 MHz output signal from it. It might not mean anything when you're analyzing a linear, non-active device, but stray from that and it's gonna waste your time. By comparison, the $200 boat anchor has an extremely clean output (see attached). --- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm --- --- Quote ---Click those links, see for yourself. Also, it's marketed as a 900 MHz VNA, not a 300 MHz one, and no, it's not great under 300 MHz either. --- End quote --- Define great. Every VNA shall have specs same or better than industry leading boat anchors costing (new) > 2000$? Thats nonsense argument. --- End quote --- I think the beginning of this reply shows exactly what I mean. It doesn't have to match the boat anchor, but when I look at that output, "not great" is the nicest thing that comes to mind. --- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm --- --- Quote ---Regarding the $40 VNA, I'd like to underline the fact that you don't have a $40 VNA that works either, and yours can't be fixed. --- End quote --- NanoVNA works. Proof is all around the internet. Seems, you choose to ignore everything that do not match your beliefs and fallacies. --- End quote --- It doesn't work across the specified bandwidth, aka "doesn't work". --- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm --- --- Quote ---I actually got a 6 GHz VNA for ~$200 several years back. It was a fixer-upper but I got it working. --- End quote --- So even broken VNA was 5x times more expensive than 40$. You disproved your own claim that for 40$ there are better options. - There are not. --- End quote --- I never claimed that there are better options for $40, I claimed that for people willing to spend $40 for this, there are better options (for example, a $200 broken VNA, that may require some work). If anything, what I claim is that you can only produce garbage for $40. --- Quote from: BillB on December 19, 2019, 07:35:50 pm --- --- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pm ---Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler. --- End quote --- I believe that this is an incorrect assumption as there is no singular market for any product. As other posters have noted, there is more than one market for test equipment, VNAs or whatever and to again repeat the previous sentiments, competition is always good. The growth of low cost segment does not necessarily 1) affect any other segment nor 2) need to affect any other segment negatively. A low cost offering introduces more people to the product which GROWS the markets for all segments (new users will then upgrade to higher cost units for better performance). Furthermore, it fosters competition and ensures the market leaders keep innovating and offering value. --- End quote --- I'm inclined to disagree here. This is not the reason I started this thread, but the reason I mentioned NanoVNA specifically is because it has actually killed a tiny market segment I was targeting with one of my products. NanoVNA was launched about one month before my product was 100% ready, but by the time I was ready to hit the production button, it was too late and I realized it would have been a tremendous waste of money. This is not the only time this has happened, and I'm sure I'm not the only small time manufacturer who faces this, so I would argue that not only it affects MANY segments negatively, but it completely kills competition in some areas and hinders innovation. |
| langwadt:
--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:01:04 pm --- --- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm --- --- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 06:21:06 pm ---You keep pushing the idea that it's food from the heavens, when I just showed you that it's not. --- End quote --- I say that NanoVNA works upto 300MHz, provided screenshot, you did not show anything that disproves that. --- End quote --- Ok... first of all, let's point out that you agree that it only works for 1/3 of the advertised bandwidth (which supports the points I was making on the actual topic of this thread). Second of all, I'm going to disagree with that too, because look at these harmonics: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/attachment/1707/0/IMG_0564.JPG That's a 10 MHz output signal from it. It might not mean anything when you're analyzing a linear, non-active device, but stray from that and it's gonna waste your time. By comparison, the $200 boat anchor has an extremely clean output (see attached). --- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm --- --- Quote ---Click those links, see for yourself. Also, it's marketed as a 900 MHz VNA, not a 300 MHz one, and no, it's not great under 300 MHz either. --- End quote --- Define great. Every VNA shall have specs same or better than industry leading boat anchors costing (new) > 2000$? Thats nonsense argument. --- End quote --- I think the beginning of this reply shows exactly what I mean. It doesn't have to match the boat anchor, but when I look at that output, "not great" is the nicest thing that comes to mind. --- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm --- --- Quote ---Regarding the $40 VNA, I'd like to underline the fact that you don't have a $40 VNA that works either, and yours can't be fixed. --- End quote --- NanoVNA works. Proof is all around the internet. Seems, you choose to ignore everything that do not match your beliefs and fallacies. --- End quote --- It doesn't work across the specified bandwidth, aka "doesn't work". --- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 06:43:59 pm --- --- Quote ---I actually got a 6 GHz VNA for ~$200 several years back. It was a fixer-upper but I got it working. --- End quote --- So even broken VNA was 5x times more expensive than 40$. You disproved your own claim that for 40$ there are better options. - There are not. --- End quote --- I never claimed that there are better options for $40, I claimed that for people willing to spend $40 for this, there are better options (for example, a $200 broken VNA, that may require some work). If anything, what I claim is that you can only produce garbage for $40. --- Quote from: BillB on December 19, 2019, 07:35:50 pm --- --- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pm ---Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler. --- End quote --- I believe that this is an incorrect assumption as there is no singular market for any product. As other posters have noted, there is more than one market for test equipment, VNAs or whatever and to again repeat the previous sentiments, competition is always good. The growth of low cost segment does not necessarily 1) affect any other segment nor 2) need to affect any other segment negatively. A low cost offering introduces more people to the product which GROWS the markets for all segments (new users will then upgrade to higher cost units for better performance). Furthermore, it fosters competition and ensures the market leaders keep innovating and offering value. --- End quote --- I'm inclined to disagree here. This is not the reason I started this thread, but the reason I mentioned NanoVNA specifically is because it has actually killed a tiny market segment I was targeting with one of my products. NanoVNA was launched about one month before my product was 100% ready, but by the time I was ready to hit the production button, it was too late and I realized it would have been a tremendous waste of money. This is not the only time this has happened, and I'm sure I'm not the only small time manufacturer who faces this, so I would argue that not only it affects MANY segments negatively, but it completely kills competition in some areas and hinders innovation. --- End quote --- you lost, so NanoVNA is not competition or innovation ?? |
| jadew:
--- Quote from: langwadt on December 19, 2019, 08:17:00 pm ---you lost, so NanoVNA is not competition or innovation ?? --- End quote --- Not sure where you're going with this. It's not fair competition. |
| ogden:
--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:01:04 pm ---Ok... first of all, let's point out that you agree that it only works for 1/3 of the advertised bandwidth (which supports the points I was making on the actual topic of this thread). --- End quote --- No. Performance is specified for each frequency range separately: Measurement range: 70dB (50kHz-300MHz), 50dB (300M-600MHz), 40dB (600M-900MHz)); --- Quote ---Second of all, I'm going to disagree with that too, because look at these harmonics: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/attachment/1707/0/IMG_0564.JPG --- End quote --- Right. Test signal is square wave. You correctly point out that it won't do any good with nonlinear RF devices. That is no secret, nearly every review points that out. --- Quote ---By comparison, the $200 boat anchor has an extremely clean output (see attached). --- End quote --- BS. Broken 200$ VNA is not VNA until fixed. How much it cost in good condition? --- Quote ---I never claimed that there are better options for $40 --- End quote --- Short memory? See for yourself: --- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 04:50:02 pm --- --- Quote from: OwO on December 19, 2019, 04:25:10 pm ---Nah. For a hobbyist without lots of money the alternative is NO test equipment. --- End quote --- That is not true. Someone who's willing to use a VNA that doesn't work, has plenty of better options in the used/broken market. --- End quote --- |
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