| General > General Technical Chat |
| Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China? |
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| ogden:
--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 10:46:43 pm ---To remove all ambiguity, and hopefully switch the discussion back on topic (finding a solution for this situation), the device in question was a simple 2.9 GHz tracking generator that met the linearity and spectral purity specifications of the 85640A. So it was targeted at a subsection of the market the NanoVNA is targeting. --- End quote --- Tracking generator is very specific product for advanced (existing or future) users of spectrum analyzer who knows what they are doing. Such knowledgeable "customer" with much deeper than 40$ pockets, would never trade proper spectrum analyzer with quality tracking generator for something like NanoVNA. You have to find another excuse for failure of your product. --- Quote ---So to clarify, the "complaint", or better yet, the problem that I'd like to find a solution for, is that manufacturers from this side of the pond, are competing against some practices against which it's very difficult to compete, while being held back by laws (that I honestly find normal to a degree). --- End quote --- Bullshit. Customers of test equipment are not like those who are easily influenced by TV commercials. It is already said - people are not stupid. Also if 40$ VNA does not work but your device does - then why you are whining? NanoVNA is training ground for your future customers! |
| jadew:
--- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 11:12:11 pm --- --- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 10:46:43 pm ---To remove all ambiguity, and hopefully switch the discussion back on topic (finding a solution for this situation), the device in question was a simple 2.9 GHz tracking generator that met the linearity and spectral purity specifications of the 85640A. So it was targeted at a subsection of the market the NanoVNA is targeting. --- End quote --- Tracking generator is very specific product for advanced (existing or future) users of spectrum analyzer who knows what they are doing. Such knowledgeable "customer" with much deeper than 40$ pockets, would never trade proper spectrum analyzer with quality tracking generator for something like NanoVNA. You have to find another excuse for failure of your product. --- End quote --- Don't know why you keep ignoring what I say :) I literally mentioned in the previous post that I did the market research prior to going into production. And I wouldn't say the product failed, because I'm a happy user, it just didn't go into production because of <Stack overflow. Infinite recursion detected>. Edit: --- Quote from: ogden on December 19, 2019, 11:12:11 pm --- --- Quote ---So to clarify, the "complaint", or better yet, the problem that I'd like to find a solution for, is that manufacturers from this side of the pond, are competing against some practices against which it's very difficult to compete, while being held back by laws (that I honestly find normal to a degree). --- End quote --- Bullshit. Customers of test equipment are not like those who are easily influenced by TV commercials. It is already said - people are not stupid. Also if 40$ VNA does not work but your device does - then why you are whining? NanoVNA is training ground for your future customers! --- End quote --- That's what I thought too, but it's clearly a bad assumption. I've been following this phenomenon a lot and I can give you at least 5 other examples from the top of my head, but I don't want to go on another tangent like the one we just finished (I hope). Edit 2: In fact, let me state that I've been guilty of this myself, and I still can't fully understand why. |
| Kilrah:
Exactly. If your device IS significantly better then show that it is and that might justify the price difference. Again I maintain it's probably not the same market entirely. The customers for a $40 VNA will expect it to have severe limitations, if they buy it it's either that they feel that'll do for them anyway, or just that there is no better option that's viable for them becasue the next step up is multiple thousands - in which case your device could be filling a gap. And for many (most) people an old used item is not an option, especially if in need of repair. --- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 11:20:09 pm ---Don't know why you keep ignoring what I say :) I literally mentioned in the previous post that I did the market research prior to going into production. --- End quote --- The fact you've done a market research doesn't mean you came to the correct conclusions at the end of it :) |
| VK3DRB:
Most people, including I would guess most of the people here, want more for less and in so doing turn a blind eye to human rights abuses, sweatshops and exploitation as long as they can get more stuff for themselves. India and China are basket cases of forced child labour so their rich can get richer, and we in the west can enjoy something for next to nothing. In Australia, we are seeing rich CEOs being exposed for robbing their lowly paid workers of their basic entitlements. We need to think twice before buying some test gear and other electronics from China. Maybe there should be a global good corporate citizen register, so we can avoid dealing with those those who are dodgy; and support those who care for the environment and their employees; and make a good quality product that they innovated (ie: not made with stolen IP). There is one company at least in the USA that recently shined a light on generosity... |
| CatalinaWOW:
--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 10:46:43 pm ---@CatalinaWOW, your analysis is correct, with one exception, and I agree with the rest (hopefully you don't edit it to something silly :) ). The exception is that I have tested the waters. And the answer was clear, and so was the reason. To remove all ambiguity, and hopefully switch the discussion back on topic (finding a solution for this situation), the device in question was a simple 2.9 GHz tracking generator that met the linearity and spectral purity specifications of the 85640A. So it was targeted at a subsection of the market the NanoVNA is targeting. Regarding pricing... let's just say that single components in that device are more expensive than the shipped NanoVNA. You simply can't do RF on the cheap - I tried. That said, I'm not blaming anyone, contrary to what it was suggested by some posters here. I think everyone does what feels normal to them and this is the situation we're in. This includes local manufacturers, chinese manufactures, buyers and even law makers. Also, while I do get pissed off occasionally when things don't pan out, I don't hold grudges and if tomorrow it would make sense for me to, for example, work for NanoVNA or any product that inconveniences me, I would. So to clarify, the "complaint", or better yet, the problem that I'd like to find a solution for, is that manufacturers from this side of the pond, are competing against some practices against which it's very difficult to compete, while being held back by laws (that I honestly find normal to a degree). I think that finding the answer to this puzzle, of how to compete in this situation, is key to a success story in today's economy. --- End quote --- OK. There are still two parts of this I don't understand. First. Parts cost exceeds $40. Sure. I don't know your BOM, or how you determined BOM cost. There may be opportunity to cooperate rather than fight by using Chinese components. They do have labor cost and environmental law advantages which makes them viable at lower price points. And business models that lets you get OEM prices at small lot quantities. And your sales price doesn't have to be $40. It has to be a value proposition for someone who wants your tracking generator. I don't know what methods you used for your market research so can't comment, but you haven't revealed anything which makes your product impossible. Second is similar to first. Join most other western manufacturers and have your widget manufactured in China. Again to get your costs down. Ability to compete in this economy in my opinion requires three elements. First, a realization that first rate brains are a worldwide commodity, and that your intellectual labor will be competing with those willing to work for less than western world salaries. This means that your business model must either allow much more efficient use of that intellectual labor due to your unique knowledge or experience or willingness to compete on price. Second, there will be a period of very unfair competition as low cost economies have less stringent requirements on a number of cost elements (environmental, work protection .... ) in all phases from raw materials to final assembly and test. As these economies become more mature the playing field will level somewhat, but probably still by tilted by different opinions on what is fair and just. The only way I know to compete with this is to join it, but buying material, sub-assys and so on in those markets. And finally an intense focus on small, unique markets that don't bring on the full force of competition. Those of us in this forum are fortunate. Almost everything we do meets this requirement by definition. Just be glad your product isn't a sweatshirt or a coffee maker. A fourth element may exist. We have it so good in our western economies (even here in the US with our patchy safety nets derided by most of Europe and the ex British empire) that it is hard to be as motivated as those who are one generation away from starvation level farming. It is worth thinking about whether this applies. |
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