Author Topic: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?  (Read 7479 times)

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Offline CajunSTD2

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2019, 12:56:45 am »
Pure and simple because they see a value in buying this so called "garbage".
I am starting into this hobby because my wife has two old jukeboxes, a Pacman Game, and electro/mech Pinball machine.
I don't need anything better than Chinese branded tools, they have way good enough specs for my needs.
As a big time Harbor Freight buyer, I am well aware of what i am getting. 
My money is better spent on my family than some piece of gear with more capability than I need.
If I find that it no longer meets my needs I am not out a large amount of money and can upgrade to better quality.
Also if I decide that this is not my forte, now i have to try and sell this gear, and recoup my cash.
Why buy a Ferrari if you only need a Kia?
 
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Online thm_w

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2019, 01:28:41 am »
Wait, didn't go into production? So this product was designed, built, and tested?

Why not post the details in another thread and we can actually have a useful discussion here about your design.
 

Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2019, 01:30:22 am »
If so many people are nuts, and you are not nut then does it tell more about you than others.
One observation I have made here is there are more and more people going nuts here.  I am a long time nut, and enjoy being so.  Frankly I do not want others to become nuts, so I can enjoy my advantages forever.

Nuts or not nuts, don't deal with the dropshippers.  There are so many on ebay, banggood, etc.  They are the roots of the problems to buyers and also original Chinese makers.
 
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Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2019, 01:35:06 am »
@CajunSTD2, you must be thinking that I'm being insulting to people buying this stuff. I'm not, and as I said before, even I am guilty of doing it. I'm actually doing my best to describe what I see when I look at these products. As unfortunate as that word is, it's the best I can come up with, without having to list a number of assumptions people make when they look at them and think otherwise. I'm not blaming the customer for not realizing/knowing those things, because they're not as obvious as for other devices, like a drill press or a vise, and not everyone is supposed to know them anyway.

Also, don't think that I don't get your point. It's a very good one. There is certainly a need for what you're describing, and I understand pretty well how this came to be, but the fact that it creates difficulties for local manufacturers is undeniable.

@CatalinaWOW, again very good points, but I'm already leveraging Chinese manufacturing wherever possible. Any more than this and I'd risk getting cloned in week 2. I assume a bigger company would have better options when working with China.

Wait, didn't go into production? So this product was designed, built, and tested?

Why not post the details in another thread and we can actually have a useful discussion here about your design.

Yes. I might actually do that.


Edit:
Nuts or not nuts, don't deal with the dropshippers.  There are so many on ebay, banggood, etc.  They are the roots of the problems to buyers and also original Chinese makers.

Very difficult to do that. I think eBay is full of them.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 01:43:24 am by jadew »
 
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Online Bud

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2019, 01:44:13 am »
Pure and simple because they see a value in buying this so called "garbage".
VALUE? If ou will read what these people write you will typically see kind of "it only cost a few bucks, what do i have to lose, Ali will refund me if anything", followed by WEEKS of nervous posting of their refund status.

Quote
My money is better spent on my family than some piece of gear with more capability than I need.
Keep it that way my friend
Quote
Also if I decide that this is not my forte, now i have to try and sell this gear, and recoup my cash.
You must be kidding. WHO will want your garbage? You will pay more in fees trying to sell.
Quote
Why buy a Ferrari if you only need a Kia?
because you do not know any better.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline CajunSTD2

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2019, 01:46:26 am »
I do get your point and think it is valid in some aspects the title does poke a nerve.
The great issue with any discussion like this on a forum is everyone has their views and there is no nuance or
context, it feels like an attack on you or I when you are just asking a question that has you befuddled.

No problems from me, peace love and good happiness stuff.
 

Online thm_w

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2019, 01:56:09 am »
I do get your point and think it is valid in some aspects the title does poke a nerve.
The great issue with any discussion like this on a forum is everyone has their views and there is no nuance or
context, it feels like an attack on you or I when you are just asking a question that has you befuddled.

No problems from me, peace love and good happiness stuff.

Your points are valid given the context of your life, considering adding him to your ignore list, you will have a better time around here :-+
 

Offline CajunSTD2

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2019, 02:00:56 am »
Bud, I am talking about the purchase of good quality tools and then trying to offload them if I get tired of doing electronics.
Will I be able to recover what I spent on a failed hobby? If nothing else i can give the cheap stuff to a smart young kid or a STEM class and if they
 break it, no big deal.
YMMV
 

Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2019, 02:01:23 am »
Yah, he does not even do a proper research.  nanoVNA was by hobbyists and for hobbyists.  If nanoVNA is his competitor, there is no respect given to his competitor.  Unlikely his shall be open-sourced, and nanoVNA is open-sourced with contributor all over the world.  Add a more powerful version 2 is round the corner.
 

Offline CajunSTD2

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2019, 02:02:01 am »
Nah, i like people watching, it is a fun side hobby.
 

Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2019, 02:11:16 am »
Yah, he does not even do a proper research.  nanoVNA was by hobbyists and for hobbyists.  If nanoVNA is his competitor, there is no respect given to his competitor.  Unlikely his shall be open-sourced, and nanoVNA is open-sourced with contributor all over the world.  Add a more powerful version 2 is round the corner.

Jeez, you just wouldn't stop with the NanoVNA...

Well, I guess if it was made by a hobbyist and it's open-source, then it's all fine and we can ignore the massive qty of product that the manufacturer is moving using false advertising.  :-+
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2019, 02:15:50 am »
Work against the Free Market?

I wouldn't really call it a free market when there are tons of laws for me and none for them, but that's a much more difficult issue to tackle.

That's the part I hate the most about this situation.  They can sell all sorts of stuff here even if it's unsafe and burns your house down and there is absolutely zero repercussions.  Meanwhile if someone here designs a high quality product that is safer, they are still not allowed to sell it unless it meets tons of requirements and certifications that are extremely expensive to get.   The playing field is not level at all.  Governments should be encouraging people to manufacture stuff locally, not discourage it.  Either lift the requirements for us, or apply them to foreign sellers too. One or the other, but make sure the playing field is fair for everyone.
 

Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2019, 02:23:19 am »
Work against the Free Market?

I wouldn't really call it a free market when there are tons of laws for me and none for them, but that's a much more difficult issue to tackle.

That's the part I hate the most about this situation.  They can sell all sorts of stuff here even if it's unsafe and burns your house down and there is absolutely zero repercussions.  Meanwhile if someone here designs a high quality product that is safer, they are still not allowed to sell it unless it meets tons of requirements and certifications that are extremely expensive to get.   The playing field is not level at all.  Governments should be encouraging people to manufacture stuff locally, not discourage it.  Either lift the requirements for us, or apply them to foreign sellers too. One or the other, but make sure the playing field is fair for everyone.

I was actually having a discussion with someone about this topic and one of the theories that was being thrown around was that governments don't want to have anything to do with any low-end manufacturing, and only foster high-end stuff, but I don't know what to think about that, because IMO, all high-end manufacturers have to start small, otherwise only already big enterprises can give birth to other, already big enterprises.

Could this possibly be the piece we are missing?

Edit:
For example, the WEEE legislation sets a very firm bar for hobby-level manufacturing in many countries in the EU.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 02:36:10 am by jadew »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2019, 02:42:18 am »
Either lift the requirements for us, or apply them to foreign sellers too. One or the other, but make sure the playing field is fair for everyone.
Result could be infinite shipping times for all parcels, including those containing legal & quality products. If you are concerned about those some who buy cheapest low quality appliances w/o warranty from China, then don't. - They are not buyers of quality products anyway. I would not bother about nominees of Darwin's award.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 02:44:35 am by ogden »
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2019, 02:49:59 am »
Nuts or not nuts, don't deal with the dropshippers.  There are so many on ebay, banggood, etc.  They are the roots of the problems to buyers and also original Chinese makers.

How do I tell if I'm buying from a dropshipper? I have no idea. I don't want to buy from dropshippers because I don't see they add any value. Unless maybe I get the goods faster should I need that. But I'm not sure even that necessarily is a given.
 

Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2019, 02:52:07 am »
Nuts or not nuts, don't deal with the dropshippers.  There are so many on ebay, banggood, etc.  They are the roots of the problems to buyers and also original Chinese makers.

How do I tell if I'm buying from a dropshipper? I have no idea. I don't want to buy from dropshippers because I don't see they add any value. Unless maybe I get the goods faster should I need that. But I'm not sure even that necessarily is a given.

That's the fun part, you can't tell. If you ask them something, they rely it back and forth.
 

Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2019, 02:54:31 am »
Yah, he does not even do a proper research.  nanoVNA was by hobbyists and for hobbyists.  If nanoVNA is his competitor, there is no respect given to his competitor.  Unlikely his shall be open-sourced, and nanoVNA is open-sourced with contributor all over the world.  Add a more powerful version 2 is round the corner.

Jeez, you just wouldn't stop with the NanoVNA...

Well, I guess if it was made by a hobbyist and it's open-source, then it's all fine and we can ignore the massive qty of product that the manufacturer is moving using false advertising.  :-+

You are still not getting it.  Thing happens not for no reason, and why it is selling well is not due to the "false advertising" as you want to believe.  A hobbyist bought, he was likely someone who was trained and owned few boat-anchor himself.  A veteran in the industry, and started his RF career before many of us were born.  An influencer in his ham club.   He was so impressed, and now he could have one that allow him to climb up his mast in his pocket, then he gave a talk in his club, and the wild fire spreads.  This is easily known from some reading on the open forum, but wishing it away as "false advertising" is also another way.   If you are not targeting the hobbyist market then you have to compare yours with China gears that is targeting workshop that need calibration certificate.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 03:37:49 am by all_repair »
 

Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2019, 03:11:05 am »
I changed the name of the topic, in the hope that it will stop the tangents.
 

Offline all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2019, 03:14:13 am »
Nuts or not nuts, don't deal with the dropshippers.  There are so many on ebay, banggood, etc.  They are the roots of the problems to buyers and also original Chinese makers.

How do I tell if I'm buying from a dropshipper? I have no idea. I don't want to buy from dropshippers because I don't see they add any value. Unless maybe I get the goods faster should I need that. But I'm not sure even that necessarily is a given.

Those that are able to sell to you in English is likely a dropshipper than not.  Some Chinese maker do sell direct on aliexpress with help from friend who is slightly better than him in English.  Those who do sell on ebay likely has a English forum on google or yahoo, and you need to dig them up.  Some you cannot avoid to buy from trader/dropshipper unless you ask friend who can buy direct on Chinese platform like taobao or jd.  These Chinese maker strength and value is not in doing English support on English platform.  They are craftsmen and would rather not sell to someone who they don't like. 
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2019, 03:56:09 am »
Why not send one of the prototype to Dave for evaluation, "if" its good and has great value ?

Or reputable forum member here, again, "if" its much better than NanoVNA , its not that hard right ?

Ask your parent how the Japanese automobiles industries at early 60s up to 70s, and then they basically wiped out major car manufacturers in the world, starting from 70s up to 90s, and not a secret that most big players in European countries were struggling so hard just to survive, event with great protection by their own government.

An exception is for German's automobiles industry that keep thriving until today, learn this lesson from this history instead of pointlessly whining.
 
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Offline OwO

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2019, 04:15:55 am »
I'm inclined to disagree here. This is not the reason I started this thread, but the reason I mentioned NanoVNA specifically is because it has actually killed a tiny market segment I was targeting with one of my products. NanoVNA was launched about one month before my product was 100% ready, but by the time I was ready to hit the production button, it was too late and I realized it would have been a tremendous waste of money.

This is not the only time this has happened, and I'm sure I'm not the only small time manufacturer who faces this, so I would argue that not only it affects MANY segments negatively, but it completely kills competition in some areas and hinders innovation.

はぁ (ha), the same thing happened to what is now the NanoVNA V2 team, which was planning a cheap LF to 200MHz USB based VNA without a display, and the design was already production ready when the Nano came out. Mind you, before the Nano the lowest cost VNA you could get were $200+ and didn't include a display, or some $100+ "kits", so it was clear the game has completely changed.

This is what the prototype looked like: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/message/6864?p=,,,20,0,0,0::relevance,,posterid%3A1988907,20,2,0,51382131

We knew there was no option except to seriously up our game, so we worked together nonstop since August 2019 to come up with a design that will beat them at a similar price. This is what we came up with: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/topic/first_pcb_pictures_of_the_v2/68761814

What is your next move?
Discord: スメグマ#2236
Email: OwOwOwOwO123@outlook.com
GitHub: gabriel-tenma-white
 
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Offline Kawakneurder

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2019, 04:28:17 am »
Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?

Firstly, I don't think that everything that comes from China is garbage. Rigol scopes (and arguably the nanoVNA) are some examples.

However to answer your question, I think everyone would agree that equipment being more accessible to more people, is always a good thing. Nowadays you can have quite a good lab, with an amount of money with which you could not even purchase a single oscilloscope 40 years ago. So if a piece of equipment comes out, that previously was unattainable for hobbyists, people get hyped. Whether or not that hype is valid or not, depends on the quality of the product. A lot of these Chinese products of course don't come close to more expensive equipment, but can still do maybe 90% of what a hobbyist might need.  In one word, it offers unrivaled price/quality ratio.

Their business model is to shovel as much low cost garbage as possible, to completely undermine the competition.
This is kind of generic for any free market. Either differentiate, do it cheaper, or do it better, or you will go out of business.

In any case, I do not see why it would be necessary to get upset about this, except if you somehow have a business in second hand electronic measurement equipment. Low demand for second hand quality manufacturer equipment would drive down the prices if you intend on buying those anyway.

They can do this because unlike businesses in other countries, they don't care about warranty, so their products don't have to be good
This is not true. If they do not make good products, people would buy similar products from other companies, because there are so many that essentially produce identical devices. Sure there might be very crap products at lower price points, but then you are essentially complaining that there are different price points for the same product. There are cheap and expensive cars too, you don't expect an ultra cheap car to be as reliable as a more expensive one.

nd they don't care about regulations or IP either, which means they can make those products for pennies
In terms of ethics, this is a valid point. The thing is that most people do not care who designed the original product and if they get money for it. They value a low price higher than that.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 04:33:29 am by Kawakneurder »
 
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Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2019, 04:57:46 am »
We knew there was no option except to seriously up our game, so we worked together nonstop since August 2019 to come up with a design that will beat them at a similar price. This is what we came up with: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/topic/first_pcb_pictures_of_the_v2/68761814

What is your next move?
Sorry to hear that about your project. I have long given up on mine. The price I was aiming for was not well received (between 300 and 450 USD), and I wasn't even sure it's worth making it at that price point. People I asked literally told me that they don't need anything more than the NanoVNA... can't argue with that.

I guess my next move is to find something less crowded.


Firstly, I don't think that everything that comes from China is garbage.

I don't think that either, and I would never suggest it. Lots of companies play nice and you have to respect them for that. My problem is only with the category of products that sell directly from China and aren't subject to the same rules and regulations, and are specifically made with that in mind (that they will be sold in this regime).

I don't make high-end scopes, but maybe if I did, I would have something to comment about Rigol too. My main beef is obviously with products that rain on my own parade.

Edit:
Had to rephrase this edit a bit. I think that any company that is aiming for presence in the EU/US, will try their best to make compliant products, which translates into a lot of benefits for the end customer.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 05:44:16 am by jadew »
 

Online magic

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2019, 08:55:58 am »
Second is similar to first.  Join most other western manufacturers and have your widget manufactured in China.
And have your design ripped off? Problem is, Chinese aren't idiots willing to slave for Westerner capitalists indefinitely. They will soon be America and have their own China somewhere else and America will be left behind obsolete. Live by globalism, die by globalism.

Second, there will be a period of very unfair competition as low cost economies have less stringent requirements on a number of cost elements (environmental, work protection .... ) in all phases from raw materials to final assembly and test.  As these economies become more mature the playing field will level somewhat, but probably still by tilted by different opinions on what is fair and just.
A period? That's what they told you so you accept it but it certainly isn't ending within anyone's lifetime yet.

There are of course another upcoming low cost economies in the making. The economic model of breeding peasants and rendering them obsolete by technology to slave away for foreign libertarians is far from being depleted.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2019, 09:12:59 am »
And here we go again, another thread West vs China.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
 


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