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Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
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OwO:

--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 08:01:04 pm ---I'm inclined to disagree here. This is not the reason I started this thread, but the reason I mentioned NanoVNA specifically is because it has actually killed a tiny market segment I was targeting with one of my products. NanoVNA was launched about one month before my product was 100% ready, but by the time I was ready to hit the production button, it was too late and I realized it would have been a tremendous waste of money.

This is not the only time this has happened, and I'm sure I'm not the only small time manufacturer who faces this, so I would argue that not only it affects MANY segments negatively, but it completely kills competition in some areas and hinders innovation.

--- End quote ---

はぁ (ha), the same thing happened to what is now the NanoVNA V2 team, which was planning a cheap LF to 200MHz USB based VNA without a display, and the design was already production ready when the Nano came out. Mind you, before the Nano the lowest cost VNA you could get were $200+ and didn't include a display, or some $100+ "kits", so it was clear the game has completely changed.

This is what the prototype looked like: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/message/6864?p=,,,20,0,0,0::relevance,,posterid%3A1988907,20,2,0,51382131

We knew there was no option except to seriously up our game, so we worked together nonstop since August 2019 to come up with a design that will beat them at a similar price. This is what we came up with: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/topic/first_pcb_pictures_of_the_v2/68761814

What is your next move?
Kawakneurder:

--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pm ---Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?

--- End quote ---

Firstly, I don't think that everything that comes from China is garbage. Rigol scopes (and arguably the nanoVNA) are some examples.

However to answer your question, I think everyone would agree that equipment being more accessible to more people, is always a good thing. Nowadays you can have quite a good lab, with an amount of money with which you could not even purchase a single oscilloscope 40 years ago. So if a piece of equipment comes out, that previously was unattainable for hobbyists, people get hyped. Whether or not that hype is valid or not, depends on the quality of the product. A lot of these Chinese products of course don't come close to more expensive equipment, but can still do maybe 90% of what a hobbyist might need.  In one word, it offers unrivaled price/quality ratio.


--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pm ---Their business model is to shovel as much low cost garbage as possible, to completely undermine the competition.

--- End quote ---
This is kind of generic for any free market. Either differentiate, do it cheaper, or do it better, or you will go out of business.

In any case, I do not see why it would be necessary to get upset about this, except if you somehow have a business in second hand electronic measurement equipment. Low demand for second hand quality manufacturer equipment would drive down the prices if you intend on buying those anyway.


--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pm ---They can do this because unlike businesses in other countries, they don't care about warranty, so their products don't have to be good

--- End quote ---
This is not true. If they do not make good products, people would buy similar products from other companies, because there are so many that essentially produce identical devices. Sure there might be very crap products at lower price points, but then you are essentially complaining that there are different price points for the same product. There are cheap and expensive cars too, you don't expect an ultra cheap car to be as reliable as a more expensive one.


--- Quote from: jadew on December 19, 2019, 03:10:26 pm ---nd they don't care about regulations or IP either, which means they can make those products for pennies

--- End quote ---
In terms of ethics, this is a valid point. The thing is that most people do not care who designed the original product and if they get money for it. They value a low price higher than that.
jadew:

--- Quote from: OwO on December 20, 2019, 04:15:55 am ---We knew there was no option except to seriously up our game, so we worked together nonstop since August 2019 to come up with a design that will beat them at a similar price. This is what we came up with: https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/topic/first_pcb_pictures_of_the_v2/68761814

What is your next move?

--- End quote ---
Sorry to hear that about your project. I have long given up on mine. The price I was aiming for was not well received (between 300 and 450 USD), and I wasn't even sure it's worth making it at that price point. People I asked literally told me that they don't need anything more than the NanoVNA... can't argue with that.

I guess my next move is to find something less crowded.



--- Quote from: Kawakneurder on December 20, 2019, 04:28:17 am ---Firstly, I don't think that everything that comes from China is garbage.

--- End quote ---

I don't think that either, and I would never suggest it. Lots of companies play nice and you have to respect them for that. My problem is only with the category of products that sell directly from China and aren't subject to the same rules and regulations, and are specifically made with that in mind (that they will be sold in this regime).

I don't make high-end scopes, but maybe if I did, I would have something to comment about Rigol too. My main beef is obviously with products that rain on my own parade.

Edit:
Had to rephrase this edit a bit. I think that any company that is aiming for presence in the EU/US, will try their best to make compliant products, which translates into a lot of benefits for the end customer.
magic:

--- Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 20, 2019, 12:45:31 am ---Second is similar to first.  Join most other western manufacturers and have your widget manufactured in China.

--- End quote ---
And have your design ripped off? Problem is, Chinese aren't idiots willing to slave for Westerner capitalists indefinitely. They will soon be America and have their own China somewhere else and America will be left behind obsolete. Live by globalism, die by globalism.


--- Quote from: CatalinaWOW on December 20, 2019, 12:45:31 am ---Second, there will be a period of very unfair competition as low cost economies have less stringent requirements on a number of cost elements (environmental, work protection .... ) in all phases from raw materials to final assembly and test.  As these economies become more mature the playing field will level somewhat, but probably still by tilted by different opinions on what is fair and just.
--- End quote ---
A period? That's what they told you so you accept it but it certainly isn't ending within anyone's lifetime yet.

There are of course another upcoming low cost economies in the making. The economic model of breeding peasants and rendering them obsolete by technology to slave away for foreign libertarians is far from being depleted.
Black Phoenix:
And here we go again, another thread West vs China.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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