Author Topic: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?  (Read 7445 times)

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Offline CJay

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2019, 09:23:29 am »

I was actually having a discussion with someone about this topic and one of the theories that was being thrown around was that governments don't want to have anything to do with any low-end manufacturing, and only foster high-end stuff, but I don't know what to think about that, because IMO, all high-end manufacturers have to start small, otherwise only already big enterprises can give birth to other, already big enterprises.

Could this possibly be the piece we are missing?

Edit:
For example, the WEEE legislation sets a very firm bar for hobby-level manufacturing in many countries in the EU.

Fundamental flaw in what you said, 'high end' does not mean high volume, nor does it mean 'big'.

Plenty of high end manufacturers start and stay small, making nice profits and innovative products.

You're more likely to see cheap clones or just cheap products that cut corners with safety on high volume products.
 

Online OwO

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2019, 09:27:02 am »
I don't see how this is about China vs West. This is about new low cost test equipment disrupting the market which I think is long overdue. For years I wondered why test equipment vendors (and other big corporations) get away with charging so high margin and why nobody undercut them (which I saw as easy to do). I still wonder the same thing about parts distributors and why all big 3 tend to have the exact same prices, when I've seen small OEMs get chips at 1/20th the price direct from Xilinx at volumes of a few hundred.
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2019, 09:36:46 am »
Second is similar to first.  Join most other western manufacturers and have your widget manufactured in China.
And have your design ripped off? Problem is, Chinese aren't idiots willing to slave for Westerner capitalists indefinitely. They will soon be America and have their own China somewhere else and America will be left behind obsolete. Live by globalism, die by globalism.

Second, there will be a period of very unfair competition as low cost economies have less stringent requirements on a number of cost elements (environmental, work protection .... ) in all phases from raw materials to final assembly and test.  As these economies become more mature the playing field will level somewhat, but probably still by tilted by different opinions on what is fair and just.
A period? That's what they told you so you accept it but it certainly isn't ending within anyone's lifetime yet.

There are of course another upcoming low cost economies in the making. The economic model of breeding peasants and rendering them obsolete by technology to slave away for foreign libertarians is far from being depleted.

I don't see how this is about China vs West. This is about new low cost test equipment disrupting the market which I think is long overdue. For years I wondered why test equipment vendors (and other big corporations) get away with charging so high margin and why nobody undercut them (which I saw as easy to do). I still wonder the same thing about parts distributors and why all big 3 tend to have the exact same prices, when I've seen small OEMs get chips at 1/20th the price direct from Xilinx at volumes of a few hundred.

When this kind of comments start to pop up (in bold), well it's hard to separate what is a on topic conversation or something that is going to go out of hand fast... Well then I'm sorry if it wasn't the meaning of this, I must have misjudged then.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2019, 09:56:55 am »
People I asked literally told me that they don't need anything more than the NanoVNA... can't argue with that.
Then if that many people find it good enough for their use it disproves your claim that it's garbage :)
 
I do agree that the certification requirements in our regions are excessive, I travel a lot and see stuff everywhere that would not meet a single safety standard we have, yet people don't die left and right nor do buildings go on fire all the time.
For me a lot of standards are way overkill in terms of safety, but if you think a little they have most likely just been passed "in the name of safety" by local companies more prominently as a way to raise the bar to protect themselves by making it hard for competition to reach it...
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 10:02:12 am by Kilrah »
 

Offline ebclr

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2019, 11:56:40 am »
I'm quite happy With my trash nano VNA and also happy with my trash 6USD atmega Transistor tester, WIth my Rigols, and Siglents.

The only fragile point is the firmware and software, that Chinese simply can't do in a professional way, I really don't understand why they are so bad in this area.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2019, 12:03:35 pm »
What's the deal? Everything I own is made in China and it all works fine!  :palm:

Some "low quality gear from China" I own that's pretty good:

1. Ender 3
2. NanoVNA
3. DS1054Z
4. Various STM32/AVR dev boards

It's a race to the bottom and I rather like having more spending power thanks.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2019, 12:20:27 pm »
I like my NanoVNA for how cheep it was and what it can do. Already exited for the new 3GHz NanoVNA now that i hear it is in the works.

But i do also have a bunch of test equipment that carries badges of HP, Agilent, Keysight, Keithley, Tektronix, etc... But most of this equipment is old used gear that i happened to get a good deal on. I can't afford to buy shiny new top brand gear for my lab, the cost of that would be ridiculous. My spectrum analyzer is a HP 8566B because its a nice SA i happened to find a good price, but i also have a Rigol DP832 PSU because i liked it and it was cheap enough to be a good bang for buck even when brand new.

A decent VNA is hard to find for cheep because they seam to be pretty hot stuff on the used market, so i don't have a real boatanchor VNA yet. But the NanoVNA while not offering top performance still performs easily well enough to be useful for most things you would want to do with a VNA, all while costing less than half a tank of fuel for my car. So it provides in my opinion amazing value for money.

Yes id prefer having a piece of test equipment with a Keysight badge rather than Rigol, but if the Rigol gets the job done i won't complain. Test equipment is a tool for getting stuff done, not a expensive fashion accessory like the latest Gucci bag (That is mostly expensive just because it carries the logo, not because of build quality anyway)
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2019, 01:28:34 pm »
I still wonder the same thing about parts distributors and why all big 3 tend to have the exact same prices, when I've seen small OEMs get chips at 1/20th the price direct from Xilinx at volumes of a few hundred.
Those prices are "shelf prices" for those who just grab components like in supermarket or for some reason (small volume?) have no chances to get better price. If you are serious about your volume, you can and must speak to Xilinx sales, negotiate. "Big 3" distributor will deliver chips, for price you agreed with manufacturer.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2019, 01:48:57 pm »
What's the deal? Everything I own is made in China and it all works fine!  :palm:

Some "low quality gear from China" I own that's pretty good:

1. Ender 3
2. NanoVNA
3. DS1054Z
4. Various STM32/AVR dev boards

It's a race to the bottom and I rather like having more spending power thanks.

This is kinda the point, the 'low quality' gear from China often matches and surpasses the performance of western name brand gear from ~30 years ago that was tens, hundreds or even thousands of times the price, the cutting edge has moved on and in another 300 years I fully expect China or whichever economy might have taken over from them to be producing the equivalent of today's Keysight Infinivision 'scope for the price of a DS1054 etc.

There are a few tests of the NanoVNA out there showing it compares very favourably with name brand VNA kit that, when new, cost many tens of thousands of dollars, it doesn't stand a cat in hell's chance of competing with, for example, a current model R&S ZNBT but in 20-30 years the tech will have moved on and yeah, maybe there'll be a PicoVNA that compares well and only costs $50
 
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Online joeqsmith

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2019, 02:26:16 pm »
Hey guys,

So... that's pretty much the question: why?

For an example see the NanoVNA and most of things that come from that chinese operation with a ham radio handle.

Why do people who seemingly know the value of good and reliable test equipment, go for things like that, which are clearly poorly designed (if you can call them that), and which are destroying the market for genuine manufacturers who really want to make a quality product. It's like buying a caliper that has the accuracy of a ruler.

Their business model is to shovel as much low cost garbage as possible, to completely undermine the competition. They can do this because unlike businesses in other countries, they don't care about warranty, so their products don't have to be good, and they don't care about regulations or IP either, which means they can make those products for pennies.

I'm kind of annoyed by this, because I've been bit by it several times already and I have suspicions that some of these sellers are also behind a recent attack against my server.

Why is this happening and how can you work against it - is it even worth it?

My bud Flipper had expressed an interested in buying a VNA and was looking at the Siglent.  They bought the Nanos based on my recommendation after I had read an article about them. 

My goal was to help Flipper learn about a VNA before they made a decision on what to buy.   At $100 (2 pcs)  it was a no brainer.   Worst case, we would pitch them.    I played with it a bit and for learning the basics it was a very good investment.   

At some point, I will replace my 1970's VNA and I am sure Flipper will end up getting something.   Because of the cost, I will most likely buy something used.     
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Online madires

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2019, 04:03:05 pm »
I think it's about the perceived value of a product or the bang for the buck. When a cheap USB logic analyzer clone suits my needs why should I spend much more on a professional one? Before we had the inexpensive T&M devices from China hobbyists had to pay big money for professional stuff, maybe got used gear for a reasonable sum if lucky, or had to look for kits or projects in electronics magazines. Or in other words, there's demand for inexpensive T&M gear. Since the big T&M brands don't care about this market inexpensive Chinese products are very welcome and filling the gap.

As one of the two active developers of the Transistortester project I'm happy that any electronics enthusiast can get a tester for just a few bucks helping her/him to repair, upcycle and so on. On the other side it's frustrating to see how most of the tester manufacturers ignore the OSHW character of the project by creating modified firmwares and not releasing the code, or by not mentioning the project. So a lot of users don't know about the OSHW project and have no idea that they can upgrade the firmware.

And if you think it's an issue with Chinese manufacturers only, you're wrong. Velleman (Belgian company) sells a Transistortester kit with a 2x16 text display for about 50 bucks. Besides the inflated price they also don't give any hint about the OSHW project.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over garbage gear from China?
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2019, 05:14:08 pm »
Nah. For a hobbyist without lots of money the alternative is NO test equipment.

That is not true. Someone who's willing to use a VNA that doesn't work, has plenty of better options in the used/broken market.


If you can find me a proper VNA for ~$50 that doesn't take up my whole bench I'll buy it today. Until then the NanoVNA is looking pretty good to me, I don't do enough RF stuff to need a "real" instrument, all I really need is the ability to measure passive filters and such.
 

Offline jadew

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2019, 05:43:47 pm »
I think I'm narrowing in on the actual reason. So far, I agree with most of what was posted on the subject, I too would buy a cheap product if it was good enough. However, sweatshop products are sometimes not that. Don't conflate Rigol & Co with them, because they're playing different games. Identifying those good products takes a certain level of skill, and I think that becomes more difficult when we're talking about RF.

So far, the disagreements seem to be centered around various misunderstandings and differences in how we evaluate a product.

If you can find me a proper VNA for ~$50 that doesn't take up my whole bench I'll buy it today. Until then the NanoVNA is looking pretty good to me, I don't do enough RF stuff to need a "real" instrument, all I really need is the ability to measure passive filters and such.

Fair point, so you only need it for no more than a couple of measurements of passive filters up to 300 MHz? If the answer is yes, then I have absolutely nothing to say against it.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2019, 08:44:10 pm »
When this kind of comments start to pop up (in bold), well it's hard to separate what is a on topic conversation or something that is going to go out of hand fast... Well then I'm sorry if it wasn't the meaning of this, I must have misjudged then.

I feel this thread has become a thinly veld China is the root of all evil in the market thread.

Ignoring the product aspect (which has been discussed in detail), the other context I get from this thread is China has an unfair advantage because they don't have to build widgets to the same standards and this is therefore creates an unfair market advantage for them. This is ass backwards thinking and shifting blame. China gains a advantage here because local consumers are willing choosing to purchase products outside of their local market and deciding for themselves what (if any) standards they feel need to be meet.

It's really a case of everyone else should have to pay for for these standards and play by the rules in my local market except me. If the consumers are willing to pay for the quality and standards China would meet them, they not forcing these products into the local market, far from it it the local consumers doing it to themselves.

In terms of labor costs and standards, every country has unseen exploiters making quick profits from people. The labor cost advantage in China has largely gone as their local industry has to complete for people and skill, what they do have is an advantage though scale because of the manufacturing scale means suppliers are also local. BUT, on the whole high quality products from China are still expensive and further more China has to compete with those products again considerable west consumer prejudices against the country and it's people. Emphasis on 'Assembled in the USA' is legal racism which company's are  exploiting in their local market.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2019, 09:56:19 pm »
. China gains a advantage here because local consumers are willing choosing to purchase products outside of their local market and deciding for themselves what (if any) standards they feel need to be meet.
Bullshit. For the huge variety of products we are not given a choice anymore, ALL of it is produced in China. You cant choose.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2019, 09:57:20 pm »
You have to go knock on doors closer to home to complain about that problem...
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2019, 10:17:38 pm »
You have to go knock on doors closer to home to complain about that problem...
Nope, it's a worldwide issue and solely based on corporate greed.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2019, 11:00:59 pm »
That's exactly what I mean. Closer to home as in the countries where the products are retailed not manufactured.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2019, 11:26:47 pm »
We can thank the west for bringing the Asians up to speed firstly and how they have the skills and knowledge to continue to push the boundary's of performance vs price.

Still I'm with the OP, if a datasheet spec says something it needs be met or we can rightly call it junk.

Caveat emptor !
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2019, 12:02:15 am »
. China gains a advantage here because local consumers are willing choosing to purchase products outside of their local market and deciding for themselves what (if any) standards they feel need to be meet.
Bullshit. For the huge variety of products we are not given a choice anymore, ALL of it is produced in China. You cant choose.

Yeah I wish there was choice to buy stuff made in Canada.  I would always buy that first even if it's more expensive.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2019, 12:07:00 am »
We can thank the west for bringing the Asians up to speed firstly and how they have the skills and knowledge to continue to push the boundary's of performance vs price.

Still I'm with the OP, if a datasheet spec says something it needs be met or we can rightly call it junk.

Caveat emptor !

That's my biggest gripe about the low cost gear, not so much that the performance is lacking for the price, but the fact that the performance doesn't match the claimed spec. People don't (or shouldn't) expect high performance from low end gear but it's perfectly reasonable to expect it to perform as advertised.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2019, 12:08:14 am »
Bullshit. For the huge variety of products we are not given a choice anymore, ALL of it is produced in China. You cant choose.

We had a choice, we made that choice years ago and now we are living with the consequences of that choice. The average consumer is ill informed and shops purely based on price. The cheapest junk has always been the top sellers.
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #97 on: December 21, 2019, 12:13:35 am »
We can thank the west for bringing the Asians up to speed firstly and how they have the skills and knowledge to continue to push the boundary's of performance vs price.

Still I'm with the OP, if a datasheet spec says something it needs be met or we can rightly call it junk.

Caveat emptor !

That's my biggest gripe about the low cost gear, not so much that the performance is lacking for the price, but the fact that the performance doesn't match the claimed spec. People don't (or shouldn't) expect high performance from low end gear but it's perfectly reasonable to expect it to perform as advertised.

I hate that crap too, and it makes it even harder to compete because if you want to make a competing product not only do you need to try to make it cheaper but you need to try to make it the same or better spec.  Meanwhile they cheated by lying about the spec. Power related stuff like inverters is the worse for that. 
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #98 on: December 21, 2019, 12:33:18 am »
Still I'm with the OP, if a datasheet spec says something it needs be met or we can rightly call it junk.
That's my biggest gripe about the low cost gear, not so much that the performance is lacking for the price, but the fact that the performance doesn't match the claimed spec. People don't (or shouldn't) expect high performance from low end gear but it's perfectly reasonable to expect it to perform as advertised.
I hate that crap too, and it makes it even harder to compete because if you want to make a competing product not only do you need to try to make it cheaper but you need to try to make it the same or better spec.  Meanwhile they cheated by lying about the spec. Power related stuff like inverters is the worse for that.

The problem is that often that is very quickly revealed, and what do consumers do? They buy the widget any way. A good examples were Uni-T meters advertising Cat IV ratings, it was pretty obvious they did not meet the spec, but not only did their meters continue to sell but the masses came out and defended the meter.

Bottom line, the consumer is purchasing based on price almost exclusively, they then insistently complain it's low quality, it's robbing jobs from the local market, it did not meet the spec etc. All perfectly obvious and well known before the decision to BUY. In most cases in the consumer market there is need (which these products satisfy) and dick waving (which the spec sheet satisfies). This who need equipment that meet actual specs are not being blindsided by this, to the contra we find it really difficult to purchase locally because the manufactures, suppliers (and retailers) there once were are gone. Joe decided long ago not to support the local market. Unfortunately, Joe was also too short sighted to realize he was also sending his job overseas along with the skill investment companies made.



 

Online all_repair

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Re: Why do so many people here go nuts over very low quality gear from China?
« Reply #99 on: December 21, 2019, 12:34:55 am »
I don't know if your product is really better, you can loose at the end if your competitor is actually not as good but is beating you in the false advertising.  This may happen to finance product.  For actual devices, false advertising kills their brand almost immediately in the era of internet where information travels so fast.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 12:43:23 am by all_repair »
 


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