Author Topic: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?  (Read 12613 times)

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2022, 08:31:05 pm »
They had great business skills. Not technical skills (although they still both had a valid technical background, but nothing spectacular.)
The main skill of those people is business and vision, along with being at the right place at the right time. That's pretty much the recipe for success.

Engineers rarely get any credit actually. The few ones who do are the exception. And those "star" engineers are a thing of the past. (Think Bob Widlar for instance.)
Companies don't want star engineers anymore. That game is over. They want people who blend in and on whom they don't depend too much.

So if you as an engineer want more recognition, you picked the wrong career. You get to do something you enjoy (hopefully) and get your paycheck. If you want more recognition do something else.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2022, 01:26:58 am »

Software and computers could very easily have taken a different path.  We very nearly ended up with a model based on timesharing on large computers with thin terminals.  Which would have been unlikely to expand to all the application areas that occurred when everyone owned their own hardware and software resources.

Isn't that model similar to where we are going with "the Cloud"?
Our computers are turning into "dumb terminals" by choice, with so many things done by "Apps" which are really only gateways to where the real computing happens.
 

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2022, 05:04:32 am »
Nothing new about server client computing and probably has always been there. Over 15 years ago I did system management for a company that started to use thin clients connected to a Windows Terminal Server, after having used standard computers with a centralized storage system. Managing both the applications and the data is much easier when it is centralized. But in that setup it is at least your own system and you keep complete control over it.

At first the central system was in the headquarters, but with the need for better connections it was moved to a data center, and fiber optic connections were installed to the branch offices.

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2022, 05:08:21 am »
So if you as an engineer want more recognition, you picked the wrong career. You get to do something you enjoy (hopefully) and get your paycheck. If you want more recognition do something else.

Yes. Or invent something really special if you can and start your own company, but then you need the other skills too and you will no longer be able to be a successful engineer, because you have to run your company.

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2022, 05:22:04 am »
Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills then they might deserve?
Because they, or people around them, built them into a brand.  What you do, can do, or know, matters basically nothing compared to the (public) perception of what you do, can do, or know.  Managing that perception is what building oneself into a brand is all about.

It is not wrong, in any sense, though.  It works on humans, that's all; it is part of being a social animal, I believe.  What it does mean is that if you are actually interested in what "big guns" know and understand, you start looking at their speech and output and work product with a critical eye; recognizing that a lot of it is brand management –– either conscious or more often unconscious: they do it because it works, not because they decided that that was the way they want to go about their career.  In some ways, you'll appreciate facets of their work/brand more, in other ways your appreciation will vanish.

However, if you do become critical about "big guns" –– regardless of whether we are talking about engineers, businessmen, political leaders, religions, nations, ideologies, ideas, or scientists –– be careful of who hears you voicing those criticisms.  Humans are very keen about the brands they care about, and will instinctively stab you in the back and try to destroy you if given half a chance, if they feel you threaten their beloved brands.  I cannot help but voice them out (a personality flaw), and you can see in at least one recent thread how that makes many otherwise rational and intelligent members here react.  So, beware.
 

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2022, 05:39:13 am »
However, if you do become critical about "big guns" –– regardless of whether we are talking about engineers, businessmen, political leaders, religions, nations, ideologies, ideas, or scientists –– be careful of who hears you voicing those criticisms.  Humans are very keen about the brands they care about, and will instinctively stab you in the back and try to destroy you if given half a chance, if they feel you threaten their beloved brands.  I cannot help but voice them out (a personality flaw), and you can see in at least one recent thread how that makes many otherwise rational and intelligent members here react.  So, beware.

Being more active on the forum lately I have learned, and that is why I wrote:

Quote
This is not an attack on their personalities, just a simple question about whether they deserve the hail for their technical skills.

But since some people don't read very well there is always the risk of it being overlooked and then shit starts to fly :-DD

And the keen observers here know what I'm hinting at, since we mostly read and react in the same "risky" threads.

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2022, 05:45:47 am »
It is not wrong, in any sense, though.  It works on humans, that's all; it is part of being a social animal, I believe.  What it does mean is that if you are actually interested in what "big guns" know and understand, you start looking at their speech and output and work product with a critical eye; recognizing that a lot of it is brand management –– either conscious or more often unconscious: they do it because it works, not because they decided that that was the way they want to go about their career.  In some ways, you'll appreciate facets of their work/brand more, in other ways your appreciation will vanish.

Maybe it is the "critical eye" that is missing in the average "social animal" as to why the adoration reaches, in my eyes, absurd levels.

And here I go, sticking my neck out again :-DD

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2022, 05:52:26 am »
Being more active on the forum lately I have learned, and that is why I wrote:

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This is not an attack on their personalities, just a simple question about whether they deserve the hail for their technical skills.

But since some people don't read very well there is always the risk of it being overlooked and then shit starts to fly :-DD
Yes.

An approach I've noticed seems to work is to first point out a good thing about the target of discussion, before pointing out the criticism.  Just be honest about it, do not exaggerate or lie.  It seems to reduce the perception of the discussion being an attack.

Maybe it is the "critical eye" that is missing in the average "social animal" as to why the adoration reaches, in my eyes, absurd levels.
I agree.  We might trace reasons why we have evolved to be this way from early human societies (or even earlier!), but for the purposes of mutually beneficial interaction with other humans, it suffices to accept that we have evolved to be this way.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2022, 08:27:04 pm »
Quote from: pcprogrammer
Still to me no reason to idolize

Quite a few times in this thread you've suggested that people are 'idolizing' the 'big guns', with Jobs in particular being an example. I think you're being overly derogatory, albeit possibly unwittingly, in using that term. For most of us, we don't idolize these people but we recognise and appreciate the contribution they've made to furthering things. Jobs could be a dick and Apple's walled garden is, ah, not a preferred option, but the iPhone was a jolly impressive thing at the time and pretty much dictated the way all future mobile phones would go. That is really impressive, but in recognising it you're not idolizing anyone.

Similarly, Musk is a <expletive censored> and basically takes over someone elses bandwagon, but who else has put a private rocket in space? Not just that but running a taxi service for NASA! By any stretch that's impressive. If you appreciate that you're no necessarily idolizing him - indeed, you might actively loathe him at the same time.
 
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Offline b_force

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2022, 08:40:10 pm »
My idea on the question of this topic; that's quite literally how marketing works.

I have seen countless of engineers and companies that get all the credits.
While a big portion are just reinventing the wheel, or even worse not even that.

Just put enough money in advertisement and the whole world will know you for some kind of invention.
People will link feelings and emotions to these inventions, but at the same time forget that there might be other inventions maybe even a little better?
If you know a thing or two about marketing and physiology (if not, absolute must to read into fascinating part of science) , it's no different than known brands and products.

The same goes for patents for example. There are people with tons of patents on their name PER YEAR.
That is practically not even possible! I have talked to quite some people in bigger companies like IBM, and the majority were just co-workers (often higher up the ladder) just saying their name had to be on the patent as well.

Another example, personally I have seen some interviews with some "field experts" in certain fields of electronics.
Most of the time these people are called experts only because they worked for some very known companies.
However, the information they were giving in those interviews showed people very clearly that they were just "okay engineers", but also making A LOT of mistakes and wrong explanations.

In the end it's no different than celebrities of any other kind; music, arts, religions, movies, kings, presidents
For some reason, idolizing is really a thing for us human beings.  :-//

The science behind this can be a pretty long deep rabbit hole.
If you want to know a but more about the science behind marketing here are some nice reads to start with to get familiar with certain concepts;

Contagious: Why Things Catch On by Jonah Berger
As well as; Invisible Influence: The Hidden Forces that Shape Behavior, also by Johan Berger.

Although this isn't hardcore literature yet, it gives already so many insights as well as starting points and references to dive deeper.

Offline b_force

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2022, 08:47:17 pm »
Quote from: pcprogrammer
Still to me no reason to idolize

Quite a few times in this thread you've suggested that people are 'idolizing' the 'big guns', with Jobs in particular being an example. I think you're being overly derogatory, albeit possibly unwittingly, in using that term. For most of us, we don't idolize these people but we recognise and appreciate the contribution they've made to furthering things. Jobs could be a dick and Apple's walled garden is, ah, not a preferred option, but the iPhone was a jolly impressive thing at the time and pretty much dictated the way all future mobile phones would go. That is really impressive, but in recognising it you're not idolizing anyone.

Similarly, Musk is a <expletive censored> and basically takes over someone elses bandwagon, but who else has put a private rocket in space? Not just that but running a taxi service for NASA! By any stretch that's impressive. If you appreciate that you're no necessarily idolizing him - indeed, you might actively loathe him at the same time.
The technology itself, incl the old OLD Apple computers were never top notch compared to the competition.
Most of the time they weren't even the first at all with a certain product, like the iPod (there were already (many) mp3 players on the market)
The only thing that Apple products makes impressive, is the simplicity of the controls and the interface.
This was the main thing Jobs understood extremely well, people want things simple, not convoluted.


Something which seems very difficult to understand for people who are involved in tech.
Especially for engineers and software programmers.

Online wraper

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2022, 08:55:08 pm »
The technology itself, incl the old OLD Apple computers were never top notch compared to the competition.
Most of the time they weren't even the first at all with a certain product, like the iPod (there were already (many) mp3 players on the market)
The only thing that Apple products makes impressive, is the simplicity of the controls and the interface.
This was the main thing Jobs understood extremely well, people want things simple, not convoluted.
If you look at the products made relatively recently, actually Apple hardware was top notch in many cases. Like smartphone CPUs having 1.5 -2x better performance than the next best competitor (Qualcomm Snapdragon). Last generation Snapdragon caught up though, but still is noticeably slower.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2022, 10:16:11 pm »
And they are crushing competition again with the M1 and M2 way outside of the mobile world. Mind blowing stuff.
 

Offline EPAIII

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2022, 03:15:20 am »
"Standing on the shoulders of giants..."

Don't we all?
Paul A.  -   SE Texas
And if you look REAL close at an analog signal,
You will find that it has discrete steps.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2022, 04:32:13 am »
The technology itself, incl the old OLD Apple computers were never top notch compared to the competition.
Most of the time they weren't even the first at all with a certain product, like the iPod (there were already (many) mp3 players on the market)
The only thing that Apple products makes impressive, is the simplicity of the controls and the interface.
This was the main thing Jobs understood extremely well, people want things simple, not convoluted.


Something which seems very difficult to understand for people who are involved in tech.
Especially for engineers and software programmers.

High performance was never what the early Apple computers were known for. They were inexpensive and offered a lot of bang for the buck, and they were well documented, the Apple red book contained complete schematics and theory of operation, they were very hackable.

The 80s Macs were very expensive and I never had one at the time, but looking back they were vastly ahead of IBM clones of the same era, but the clone offered more for the price.
 

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2022, 06:07:57 am »
High performance was never what the early Apple computers were known for. They were inexpensive and offered a lot of bang for the buck, and they were well documented, the Apple red book contained complete schematics and theory of operation, they were very hackable.

The same goes for the TRS-80 from Tandy (Radio Shack), but there was no follow up into the computer market to make it into current day competition. Sure they had the color computers but that is it. Same for commodore, and other brands of the day.

So Apple did something impressive to get where it is today, but to me I have always found it to be overpriced. I don't like paying for just the name, and I know that is over simplifying, but it is seen for other brands too. You pay a premium for the name.

Because the latest iPhone may be a couple of times faster or have more memory then a simple Alcatel one, it is not near as much as the price ratio. But people stand in line for them when the latest is to be released :palm:

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2022, 06:30:16 am »
Quite a few times in this thread you've suggested that people are 'idolizing' the 'big guns', with Jobs in particular being an example. I think you're being overly derogatory, albeit possibly unwittingly, in using that term. For most of us, we don't idolize these people but we recognise and appreciate the contribution they've made to furthering things.

Am I? You can speak for yourself that you are similar to me and do not have this level of idolization for others, but can appreciate what they did for society, and maybe some others you know of, but take a look around and extend it to not just the "big guns", you will see that many people have an overly high level of idolization or addoration. Maybe these are not the correct terms for it, but I can't think of another. Maybe Nominal Animal can word it better.

Let me share some anonymous quotes of recent outings here about a certain person being criticized. To me that shows a bit to much of putting the guy on a pedestal. Or having a severe man crush. Just read the thread it provided these. I have pointed to it somewhere back in this thread. It is not as bad as these quotes make it to be. At least not in my perception.

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You reckon Dave Plummer an “idiot”? He’s anything BUT. The guy is basically a savant. Bit rude, to put it mildly.

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This thread has devolved into an aspie ego-fest. Invest some days in watching Dave’s videos - ALL of them if you wish - and learning about this lovely man. He’s a kind, witty and utterly brilliant man. He’s also a millionaire, and you don’t become a millionaire from being stupid (unless you perform a heist).

Grow up, buffoons.

Quote
The general theme of your reply, is “but then again I don’t know”. Let’s take that and you not knowing anything about Dave P., and making character judgements based on wild speculation and ignorance, and summarise that you just couldn’t resist judging him. This is called “gossip”, and no one likes a gossip.

Quote
A fact that seems to have escaped people here, due to being hyper-obsessed over his electronics theory... he's not claiming that this is an electronics tutorial - the LED is merely a means to and end, where that end is observing pin state.

Also, SINCE it's not an electronics tutorial, maybe he's wise enough to have a pre-leaded LED with inbuilt dropper resistor... but then, I suppose looking at it from a logical perspective like this, doesn't give people the fury they so desire to deride him.

He's no idiot. Only true idiots automatically assume all others are idiots.

Offline james_s

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2022, 06:44:50 am »
Because the latest iPhone may be a couple of times faster or have more memory then a simple Alcatel one, it is not near as much as the price ratio. But people stand in line for them when the latest is to be released :palm:

Both of the iPhones I've owned were the previous year's model on closeout so they were actually quite reasonably priced. I have a handful of Android devices and find the Apple stuff to be much more polished although that's not to say they are without fault. With only two viable choices for smartphone platform it's a matter of picking the one I dislike least. There are a lot of things I don't like about the modern Apple computers too, although the one my employer issued me has worked well, the choice of hardware is far too limited for me to consider spending my own money on. If not for the direction Microsoft has taken Windows I wouldn't even have looked at the Mac. I quite like Windows 7 even to this day but I can't stand any of their newer offerings. This is going a bit off topic though.

Now as far as Jobs, when he was alive I couldn't stand the guy, but after he died Apple really lost their way and product design suffered for a while. iOS 7 had an ugly and inconsistent UI and the latest still has not reached the level of visual polish that the older stuff had. Idiotic design choices like notches in the displays of phones and even laptops Jobs would never have tolerated. He was a jerk, but his obsession and attention to detail showed in the product line. Even still the trackpads on Apple laptops while comically huge, work much better than any other that I've used. I don't know if it's hardware or software that holds the secret sauce but they got it dialed in just right.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 06:49:05 am by james_s »
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2022, 08:33:16 am »

However, if you do become critical about "big guns" –– regardless of whether we are talking about engineers, businessmen, political leaders, religions, nations, ideologies, ideas, or scientists –– be careful of who hears you voicing those criticisms.  Humans are very keen about the brands they care about, and will instinctively stab you in the back and try to destroy you if given half a chance, if they feel you threaten their beloved brands.  I cannot help but voice them out (a personality flaw), and you can see in at least one recent thread how that makes many otherwise rational and intelligent members here react.  So, beware.

As I have said on other occasions, it is perilously easy to make deadly enemies on the Internet by disagreeing with someone's ideas, or suggesting that the "guru" they quote in support of their position just might have "feet of clay".
This even happens on this forum, & when it does, I have tried to just leave the discussion when I detect indignation building in one or more posters----it's sometimes hard, though!
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2022, 09:06:37 am »
Let me share some anonymous quotes of recent outings here about a certain person being criticized. To me that shows a bit to much of putting the guy on a pedestal. Or having a severe man crush. Just read the thread it provided these. I have pointed to it somewhere back in this thread. It is not as bad as these quotes make it to be. At least not in my perception.
To me it was rather a response to unjustified bashing and name calling of a person Nominal Animal had no idea about whatsoever, but respected by other who gave that response. One thing is justified criticism, name calling with no idea about the person is entirely different. IMHO it's calling out BS, rather than being a butthurt fanboy.
 

Offline pcprogrammerTopic starter

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2022, 11:14:03 am »
Ah yes, you are on the pro team in this particular case, but when you examine that thread, you would see that the quotes I gave were not in direct relation to Nominal Animal his statements. It started with a different quote from someone else

Quote
Look on the bright side. If it wasn't for idiots, there'd be no merit in competence.

Which was interpreted as "Oh look he says that my "guru" is an idiot", and yes that can be implied, but is not what is written.

Furthermore it was then a reaction onto what I wrote in reply to one of the quotes, which was misread as being "gossip" and "bashing" the person in question of whom I know nothing about. But read it properly and you would see there is nothing of the kind.

And why the need to defend someone who you most likely also do not know, while the person in question is putting himself in a position to be criticized. That is the risk of being present on the internet. Then you can of course also ask, why the need to criticize, I would say somewhat a matter of principle.

And to me that is all ok, but try to refrain from calling others names, while accusing them of name calling. Should be simple enough.

Offline tooki

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2022, 12:07:23 pm »
Even still the trackpads on Apple laptops while comically huge, work much better than any other that I've used. I don't know if it's hardware or software that holds the secret sauce but they got it dialed in just right.
I’ve said the same thing for years: Apple gets trackpads right. (And has from the start: even in the first PowerBooks with them, they worked well.) I’m pretty sure it’s in the software, because when dual-booting Windows on an Intel Mac, the trackpads don’t work nearly as well as under Mac OS X. (Caveat: I haven’t run Windows on any Intel Mac newer than ~2012. If they’ve improved the trackpad drivers, great!)

Until I actually used a (standard) trackpad on a Windows laptop, I never understood why so many people hated them and always toted a mouse with them. Once I did… ok, yep, got it! I don’t understand how they managed to make them simultaneously too sensitive and not sensitive enough, but they did.

Now, many modern ones (with the multitouch called “Windows Precision Touchpad” support) are far, far better. Not quite as good as Apple’s, but eminently usable. The one in my HP Envy x360 is pretty good. But I tried buying an external Windows Precision compatible trackpad to use at work, and it’s not as nice.

So to expand on where the secret sauce is: much is in the software. But all the same, the hardware has to be right (including the device manufacturer properly tuning the trackpad sensing hardware’s settings for the trackpad surface used). The external one, I suspect, is not properly tuned.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 12:14:40 pm by tooki »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2022, 12:21:12 pm »
Because the latest iPhone may be a couple of times faster or have more memory then a simple Alcatel one, it is not near as much as the price ratio.
Well, the price premium depends on the country. In some countries, Apple products cost _way_ more than e.g. Samsung. But in others, they’re practically the same.

But even if there’s a significant price premium, it can be worth it if you are the kind of person who likes to buy a phone and use it for many years: Apple’s OS support for older phones is second to none. iPhones generally get 5 years of OS updates, and for many years now, without any performance penalty. Android phones rarely get more than 2 years or so. So if you use your phone for 3-5 years, even paying 50% more for the iPhone actually makes it cheaper in the long run. (And for the first 1-2 years of use, you’ve got a phone with a faster SoC than any Android phone in existence.)

If you’re the kind of person who upgrades every year, then the purchase price alone is a much larger factor.

But people stand in line for them when the latest is to be released :palm:
When did you last see that happen in any significant amount? The lines have largely, quietly disappeared, as Apple expanded online preordering (with delivery on launch day), as well as allowing online iPhone reservations. (Both of which they did before COVID, for context.) The lines, while sorta cool as marketing, are a logistical nightmare for the stores, and annoying for most customers.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 12:26:31 pm by tooki »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2022, 04:29:01 pm »
But even if there’s a significant price premium, it can be worth it if you are the kind of person who likes to buy a phone and use it for many years: Apple’s OS support for older phones is second to none. iPhones generally get 5 years of OS updates, and for many years now, without any performance penalty. Android phones rarely get more than 2 years or so. So if you use your phone for 3-5 years, even paying 50% more for the iPhone actually makes it cheaper in the long run. (And for the first 1-2 years of use, you’ve got a phone with a faster SoC than any Android phone in existence.)

I actually wish they would stop updating them as aggressively, my experience has been that they go one upgrade past where they really should have stopped and then performance starts to suck. I also really wish it were possible to roll back, and to tell it to quit bugging me about an update. The vast majority of the time I've owned both iPhones I've had, they have had a permanent red badge on the settings app nagging me of an iOS update. Older versions were worse in that they'd download the gigabyte+ OS update file repeatedly without consent after I'd delete it to free space. I wish the app update pace would slow down too, so many times now I've had apps get ruined by updates that made them worse than they used to be. This culture of easy and rapid updates leads to pointless tinkering. It's easier to implement the latest fads than it is to fix actual bugs. I've been burned a couple of times too by app updates that introduced showstopper bugs which I then had to wait a month or more for a fix because it's impossible to roll back. Generally speaking, I want to buy a device, set it up just the way I want it and then use it for several years without anything changing. I don't want new features, I especially don't want UI changes, I just want my tool to work.
 
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Offline Seekonk

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Re: Why do the big "guns" get more credits for their technical skills?
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2022, 04:39:41 pm »
Many, many years ago at an employment interview I was asked if I understood Windows.  I responded that Bill Gates didn't understand Windows. I didn't get the job, but still believe I gave the correct answer.
 


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