Why don't surveillance cameras call the cops when a robbery is in progress?

[madires]

Yes, that feature will added just after the manufacturers managed to write secure firmwares At the moment your security cam is a proncam for some script kiddies and cyber crooks. And AI is over-hyped. Put a sticker on the traffic sign and the AI fails. The last DefCon or BlackHat had a talk about fooling driver assistance systems. It was surprisingly easy.

[CJay]

I've not seen any (in Oz at least) that calls police directly, they'll often call the monitoring centre first, who will then call the client or contracted security (guard) company to ask if they want the police to be called.

Correct. Camera's don't notify Police. Not only would it be unreliable, it wouldn't be able to distinguish between a person who isn't meant to be on-site and a keyholder etc...

Even systems with operators have problems, we used a locker service for delivering parts to mobile techs, one site that hosted a locker has CCTV with operators, a few of our techs have had to explain themselves to the police when the monitoring service has decided they shouldn't be there at 2AM or some other non business hours time.

[BrianHG]

It's already being worked on, but, in a city wide scale.  See insane camera #2 in this video (at 1min,54sec):
https://youtu.be/cm0KJC3b3UQ?t=114

[Bicurico]

Cameras are used to DOCUMENT a crime. After the crime, the footage can be used to help figure out what happend and who did it.

Most of the times however, the resolution, angle, light, etc. is not good enough.

To trigger the presence of a human in unusual hours and hence assuming a robbery is going on, it is simpler to use IR technology. Otherwise existing cheap motorised 360º IP cameras from China will detect significant changes in the video and trigger an alarm with e-mail and attached picture. Just configure it with the local police e-mail and you are set.

The question is: if there is no identified person CALLING the police, these messages will be ignored. You might in fact get a fine for operating such a device without permit!

Regards,
Vitor

[Kilrah]

Currently yes, but the whole subject of this topic is to imagine that through future development a camera could be able to recognise people, and differentiate "normal" behavior from "suspect" behavior.

[ebclr]

suspect" behavior" is a very relative concept

"Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security."
 

Jackson

[Red Squirrel]

Idealy calling cops should normally be up to a human.  That's why NOCs exist, you view alarms and make a proper judgement call. 

Unfortunately there are lot of cases where it does not work that way, especially with copyright.  They automate the hell out of that and anything that is even close to copyrighted material gets your stuff censored off the internet.  Imagine the physical version of that.  Get jumped by cops since you walked by a camera with a cigarette and the system thought it was a gun.

[Bicurico]

If you want to automate suspect behaviour, why not automate prediction of crime?

Using databases and profiling you can ANTECIPATE a crime before it happens and effectively stop the criminal. Don't recall the name of the movie with Tom Cruise that explores this theme.

The question is: do we want to live in such a world?
Do we want to have constant monitoring?
How effective is monitoring to prevent crime? To solve crimes after they happend?

Not an easy subject!

I think it would be easier and cheaper to HELP population to study and educate themselfes, leading them to a prosperous life.

Instead goverments are lowering standards of education, opinion, wages, culture. This ultimately causes crimes to rise.

Wanting to AUTOMATE crime prevention/investigation is ridiculous in this context.

That apart: I say that today's technology would be well suited for automated crime reporting based on behaviour patterns. No big deal in that.

Remember that airports and stadiums have automated person identification systems implemented in the many cameras they have! If a wanted person is filmed, he will be automatically identified and reported!

The future is already here. For good and bad.

Regards,
Vitor

[CJay]

If you want to automate suspect behaviour, why not automate prediction of crime?

Using databases and profiling you can ANTECIPATE a crime before it happens and effectively stop the criminal. Don't recall the name of the movie with Tom Cruise that explores this theme.

No. Absolutely not, that's way too far down the thought crime route.

[james_s]

I think it is perhaps reasonable to anticipate crime and pay extra attention to locations and suspects, but I certainly would never advocate taking action against someone who has not yet actually committed a crime.

[JoeN]

I believe it will exist someday and I hope it will exist someday. But right now it doesn't. Come on JoeN!

Like I said, I got to the real question quickly enough "When will machine vision become advanced enough that this is a possibility?"  Sorry that my title was intentionally meant to be catchy.  It caught you as intended, unfortunately it didn't convince you to read the actual text of the message.   

[JoeN]

OK, so imagine this. This is in USA. Robbery going on, camera warns the police department, they go on the scene, robber pulls out a gun, barricades themselves. Instead of a robbery, and some few thousand dollar damage (oh no, they took the jewelry, that is really really important because it is from gold) , you put police officers at risk, probably damage your house, maybe turn it into a hostage situation, maybe car chase, dead people. Nobody likes that. Besides, what's the point? Insurance will pay anyway.
There was this guy prosecuted just now. Someone was stealing his cucumber from his garden, so he wired up his fence to the 230V, thief died. Justice served, right?

But I know, USA is different. Every life is precious, except if it steps on my property!

"Imagine this."  Imagine that.  Imagine Dragons!  You are not even discussing the technology now, you are discussing police strategy and procedure.  And, in fact, if police are notified of a robbery, most of the time they wait for the perp outside for this very reason.  Your great idea here is to not notify police of a robbery in progress because they might make a mistake or choose a boneheaded strategy.  In general, if someone knows that a robbery is occurring, they notify the police in every civilized country.  Doing that with this sort of technology is not dissimilar to doing it with a hidden button or a citizen spotting a robbery and calling it in.

[xrunner]

Like I said, I got to the real question quickly enough "When will machine vision become advanced enough that this is a possibility?"  Sorry that my title was intentionally meant to be catchy.  It caught you as intended, unfortunately it didn't convince you to read the actual text of the message.   

Alright I'll try again.

So you are asking this -

When will machine vision become advanced enough that this is a possibility? 

My answer is - I do not know.

[JoeN]

My answer is - I do not know.

You and me both!   

[X]

"Imagine this."  Imagine that.  Imagine Dragons!  You are not even discussing the technology now, you are discussing police strategy and procedure.  And, in fact, if police are notified of a robbery, most of the time they wait for the perp outside for this very reason.  Your great idea here is to not notify police of a robbery in progress because they might make a mistake or choose a boneheaded strategy.  In general, if someone knows that a robbery is occurring, they notify the police in every civilized country.  Doing that with this sort of technology is not dissimilar to doing it with a hidden button or a citizen spotting a robbery and calling it in.

Discussing police strategy and procedure is 100% relevant to this discussion as you are discussing the idea of cameras calling the police.

Tech only becomes useful if it makes life easier (and even that is a stretch), and I can only see this making life difficult for both citizens and police. In order for the tech to be useful, it has to be more than just "ooh! aah!" rubbish.

Cameras ("machine vision") is already advanced enough (high resolution), and software exists that can identify individuals within a crowd. It's a matter of the algorithms, and whether or not it is worth it.

[Electro Detective]

Why would cops would want to arrest themselves and associates on a heist, if  'smart' cameras are sending them a live feed? 

I suppose they might want to replay the performance later, and assess options to improve on their speed and technique?   

Hmmm, have I understood this post correctly?   

[ebclr]

I would recommend read 1984, from George Orwell, before even thinking about this anti-liberty idea.

Cameras IA and cops is all you need for a 100% fascist state, us as engineers, must be against this, not looking to make it. It's a no go way

[Halcyon]

Using databases and profiling you can ANTECIPATE a crime before it happens and effectively stop the criminal. Don't recall the name of the movie with Tom Cruise that explores this theme.

Yeh this has been tried, even on a manual level with crime mapping (identifying hot spots/hot times etc...) and at best, it's a stab in the dark. Just because crime has happened in a small defined area in the past, doesn't correlate to increased chances of future crime (of course there are many variables which I won't go into on here).

You may as well get a map, randomly throw a bunch of dots on it and ask Police to patrol those areas, it largely has the same effect.

I remember years ago when I was in the state Police attending calls, I never once came across a crime occurring/about to occur in those so called "hot spot" areas. Not a single one. I did come close one time when a car caught alight due to a faulty starter motor that kept running continuously, however driving a Ford is hardly a crime.

[Brumby]

If you want to automate suspect behaviour, why not automate prediction of crime?

Using databases and profiling you can ANTECIPATE a crime before it happens and effectively stop the criminal. Don't recall the name of the movie with Tom Cruise that explores this theme.

Minority Report

[jpc]

Quote from: Bicurico on Yesterday at 15:28:38

If you want to automate suspect behaviour, why not automate prediction of crime?

This is already being done by many police departments in the US using analytical software allied with a whole lot of other information and traditional police work. It's called hot spot policing and has been made possible, or at least easier, by the use of modern IT hardware and software. They use it to predict where crime is more likely then not and then target patrols accordingly and it has proven quite successful in some places and not so much in others.

Obviously this is nothing like the Tom Cruise film Minority Report where they were using psychics to predict that a particular person was possibly going to commit a murder so they would arrest them before they killed.

[Electro Detective]

Many Youtube videos harp that perhaps 1984 has been around since 1884            

The good news for techies is > don't miss the bus installing and servicing cameras, gotta eat while the conspiracies play out, right?   

Vandals and stream hackers will keep you in work till SHTF in 2084 when paranoid people      will move and live underground in advanced mancaves to get away from.. well, I don't know     whatever it is their medication mixed with lemming mentality conjures up by then. 

The trillions of cameras on the surface will be watching other cameras and vice versa, and eventually out of boredom and competitive desire will resort to targetting innocent robot street cleaners merely going about their business, for thought crimes.   

OT: Anyone with Hollywood contacts want to help me flog this script for the next sc-fi blockbuster ?
There's a generous commission fee in it   
 

[tszaboo]

OK, so imagine this. This is in USA. Robbery going on, camera warns the police department, they go on the scene, robber pulls out a gun, barricades themselves. Instead of a robbery, and some few thousand dollar damage (oh no, they took the jewelry, that is really really important because it is from gold) , you put police officers at risk, probably damage your house, maybe turn it into a hostage situation, maybe car chase, dead people. Nobody likes that. Besides, what's the point? Insurance will pay anyway.
There was this guy prosecuted just now. Someone was stealing his cucumber from his garden, so he wired up his fence to the 230V, thief died. Justice served, right?

But I know, USA is different. Every life is precious, except if it steps on my property!

"Imagine this."  Imagine that.  Imagine Dragons!  You are not even discussing the technology now, you are discussing police strategy and procedure.  And, in fact, if police are notified of a robbery, most of the time they wait for the perp outside for this very reason.  Your great idea here is to not notify police of a robbery in progress because they might make a mistake or choose a boneheaded strategy.  In general, if someone knows that a robbery is occurring, they notify the police in every civilized country.  Doing that with this sort of technology is not dissimilar to doing it with a hidden button or a citizen spotting a robbery and calling it in.

Humans have the ability to decide in moral situations better at the moment than robots. I would let the robbers leave my home before I call the police. What they are taking is just stuff. Sure it is my stuff, but whatever they are taking can be replaced. If they are robbing a bank, sure rob it. I lie on the floor and let the situation go away. Sure in america people think that at the fuel station you need a shotgun under the counter and legally kill everyone who wants to take that 20 bucks in the counter. The rest of the world thinks otherwise.
We are discussing a system which will automatically report a crime in progress. That is one tiny step away from going full Judge Dredd. I suppose the system should also allow the police acess to the cameras. But you know, what? The security system in your house should also report other crimes. For example someone underage smoking marijuana. Live feed to police, so they can arrest him, right away. Or any of the sexual activities that are considered "crimes". I mean, it is just a machine looking, so not spying. You know, if you have a sex toy in Nevada, that is a crime. We should make cameras report ALL crimes, and place it everywhere. And make AIs to analyse or every move, and guide us.
You have nothing to fear. If you are a law obeying citizen.

[CJay]

A utopian attitude perhaps but I hope that one day the world will be fair enough that there isn't a need for robbery and thus make any need for such technology obsolete.

Of course it'll never happen and crimes such as murder, rape, assault etc. will still happen even if there is no need or desire to steal anymore but I can hope can't I?

[CJay]

Yeah, smokecloak is used here too, used to buy from a PC component supplier who had it, apparently it triggered one night when one of the directors brought some Friday night conquest back to the office with the intention of showing them his 'business acumen' on the boardroom table.

[Electro Detective]

More evidence how cheap some  'directors' are   

Good news the prick got smoked out, the lady can find better action elsewhere