Why don't we make [more] use of water wheels?

[coromonadalix]

If it was a good as you say     we dont see them in big quantity ??   here in Canada, water is a treasure, we have barrages and TURBINES, BUT  we dont put tons of wheels in waters  etc ...

some do in small rivers if they are used for them and do make $ profit

some use solar power and have the powergrid systems, they receive invoice rebates thru the electricity provider

we have wind turbines,  we have natural gaz


But no solution is better than the one, studies are made,  locations are studied,  people have their say,  some projects where moved further away form civillians

here we have to protect wild life, sea life like whales  etc ...

you dont hear how wind trubine clap on your head, and we hear them far away,  they create energy, by they create incomfort too



and you barge here thinking hydro power is everything   

[coppice]

If it was a good as you say     we dont see them in big quantity ??   here in Canada, water is a treasure, we have barrages and TURBINES, BUT  we dont put tons of wheels in waters  etc ...

There in Canada you have a lot of hydro-power. You just aren't noticing it.

[coromonadalix]

nah the government is stupid using it  loll   i'm well aware of it   loll

The monopolistic energy provider known as Hydro Quebec is a cash cow for the government   loll

we waste a lot

[Hydro]

If it was a good as you say     we dont see them in big quantity ??   here in Canada, water is a treasure, we have barrages and TURBINES, BUT  we dont put tons of wheels in waters  etc ...

some do in small rivers if they are used for them and do make $ profit

some use solar power and have the powergrid systems, they receive invoice rebates thru the electricity provider

we have wind turbines,  we have natural gaz


But no solution is better than the one, studies are made,  locations are studied,  people have their say,  some projects where moved further away form civillians

here we have to protect wild life, sea life like whales  etc ...

you dont hear how wind trubine clap on your head, and we hear them far away,  they create energy, by they create incomfort too



and you barge here thinking hydro power is everything   

Free-flow hydroelectric power stations are just one solution among many.

There is not a single good solution.
Everyone has their shortcomings.

What surprises you about this?
Did anyone say that for this reason all other energy production should be cancelled?

[tggzzz]

They were all excited for tidal energy. There is place in Scotland that has a rather large one that does quite well but I wouldn't want to be in the water anywhere near it. I suspect it will devastate the fish but as with these things the bad news is kept out of the comments.

Tidal power in inherently niche. Its possibly worth doing in a few select places, but it doesn't scale. Most of the world has only a small tidal range. If you live in a few places, like the UK and the surrounding countries, the continental shelf concentrates the water and you see tides big enough to do some decent generation. No continental shelf, no big tides. Most of the world would require vast areas of infrastructure to generate useful amounts of power from the tides.

Not entirely true. See https://withouthotair.com/c14/page_81.shtml and pages following.

Where does MacKay differ from what I said? It was reading Without The Hot Air that first made me realise just how niche tidal power will always be. Before that I realised that Britain and France had taken the most interest in it, because of the continental shelf, but I didn't realise just how unusual that is. After reading MacKay and looking at some maps it became clear. If you live on the coast where there is no continental shelf, things like the tide going in and out on beaches is quite a weak effect.

You don't need a large tidal range. A large tidal flow is sufficient, e.g. off the Orkney coast.

[coppice]

They were all excited for tidal energy. There is place in Scotland that has a rather large one that does quite well but I wouldn't want to be in the water anywhere near it. I suspect it will devastate the fish but as with these things the bad news is kept out of the comments.

Tidal power in inherently niche. Its possibly worth doing in a few select places, but it doesn't scale. Most of the world has only a small tidal range. If you live in a few places, like the UK and the surrounding countries, the continental shelf concentrates the water and you see tides big enough to do some decent generation. No continental shelf, no big tides. Most of the world would require vast areas of infrastructure to generate useful amounts of power from the tides.

Not entirely true. See https://withouthotair.com/c14/page_81.shtml and pages following.

Where does MacKay differ from what I said? It was reading Without The Hot Air that first made me realise just how niche tidal power will always be. Before that I realised that Britain and France had taken the most interest in it, because of the continental shelf, but I didn't realise just how unusual that is. After reading MacKay and looking at some maps it became clear. If you live on the coast where there is no continental shelf, things like the tide going in and out on beaches is quite a weak effect.

You don't need a large tidal range. A large tidal flow is sufficient, e.g. off the Orkney coast.

That's a continental shelf effect. Without the shelf the flow wouldn't be very strong. I think MacKay actually talks about the Orkneys. Might have been someone else's analysis I read.

[tggzzz]

They were all excited for tidal energy. There is place in Scotland that has a rather large one that does quite well but I wouldn't want to be in the water anywhere near it. I suspect it will devastate the fish but as with these things the bad news is kept out of the comments.

Tidal power in inherently niche. Its possibly worth doing in a few select places, but it doesn't scale. Most of the world has only a small tidal range. If you live in a few places, like the UK and the surrounding countries, the continental shelf concentrates the water and you see tides big enough to do some decent generation. No continental shelf, no big tides. Most of the world would require vast areas of infrastructure to generate useful amounts of power from the tides.

Not entirely true. See https://withouthotair.com/c14/page_81.shtml and pages following.

Where does MacKay differ from what I said? It was reading Without The Hot Air that first made me realise just how niche tidal power will always be. Before that I realised that Britain and France had taken the most interest in it, because of the continental shelf, but I didn't realise just how unusual that is. After reading MacKay and looking at some maps it became clear. If you live on the coast where there is no continental shelf, things like the tide going in and out on beaches is quite a weak effect.

You don't need a large tidal range. A large tidal flow is sufficient, e.g. off the Orkney coast.

That's a continental shelf effect. Without the shelf the flow wouldn't be very strong. I think MacKay actually talks about the Orkneys. Might have been someone else's analysis I read.

It is not a "continental shelf effect" in any meaningful sense of those words. If it was, then all the light blue areas would be usable.

The key requirement is a large flow though a constriction, e.g. the Pentland Firth.

[coppice]

They were all excited for tidal energy. There is place in Scotland that has a rather large one that does quite well but I wouldn't want to be in the water anywhere near it. I suspect it will devastate the fish but as with these things the bad news is kept out of the comments.

Tidal power in inherently niche. Its possibly worth doing in a few select places, but it doesn't scale. Most of the world has only a small tidal range. If you live in a few places, like the UK and the surrounding countries, the continental shelf concentrates the water and you see tides big enough to do some decent generation. No continental shelf, no big tides. Most of the world would require vast areas of infrastructure to generate useful amounts of power from the tides.

Not entirely true. See https://withouthotair.com/c14/page_81.shtml and pages following.

Where does MacKay differ from what I said? It was reading Without The Hot Air that first made me realise just how niche tidal power will always be. Before that I realised that Britain and France had taken the most interest in it, because of the continental shelf, but I didn't realise just how unusual that is. After reading MacKay and looking at some maps it became clear. If you live on the coast where there is no continental shelf, things like the tide going in and out on beaches is quite a weak effect.

You don't need a large tidal range. A large tidal flow is sufficient, e.g. off the Orkney coast.

That's a continental shelf effect. Without the shelf the flow wouldn't be very strong. I think MacKay actually talks about the Orkneys. Might have been someone else's analysis I read.

It is not a "continental shelf effect" in any meaningful sense of those words. If it was, then all the light blue areas would be usable.

The key requirement is a large flow though a constriction, e.g. the Pentland Firth.

Try reading MacKay again. He explains this. To get a strong flow worth tapping you need to seriously constrain the water. You need a horizontal narrowing, and you need a shallow bed. Any of the really light blue parts of the map have the necessary shallow bed. Anywhere amongst those areas which also has a strong horizontal constriction is a good candidate for tidal energy extraction. A horizontal constriction with a deep bed doesn't result in very strong flows, or large high to low tide differences. Look around the world's coastlines and you don't find so many workable places.

[Andy Chee]

The terminology "continental shelf effect" is more commonly associated with distant undersea earthquakes and the magnification of a relatively small water displacement into a tsunami.  Not really the same effect as gravitational ocean tides.

[coppice]

The terminology "continental shelf effect" is more commonly associated with distant undersea earthquakes and the magnification of a relatively small water displacement into a tsunami.  Not really the same effect as gravitational ocean tides.

Its exactly the same thing. Whether the water is disturbed by the moon or an earthquake, you still get the same multiplier effect when that water meets a shallow ocean bed.

[mendip_discovery]

Coppice how about you build one of these in your new place,
https://manxnationalheritage.im/our-sites/laxey-wheel/

Laxey Wheel,

The Great Laxey Wheel (Queeyl Vooar Laksey) is the largest surviving working wheel of its kind in the world. Designed by the Victorian engineer, Robert Casement, the wheel was built in 1854 to pump water from Glen Mooar part of the ‘Great Laxey Mines’ industrial complex.

The impressive 22m (72.5 feet) diameter structure found immediate popularity and has remained one of the Island’s most dramatic tourist attractions for over 150 years.

I that could keep you in energy for a few days. Just think of how much test gear you could have.

Anyway, now I am at a proper computer I found https://somersetrivers.uk/hydropower/ and they show at least 9 places. But I was hoping to see an old skool wheel turning a shaft onto a generator.

[Andy Chee]

The terminology "continental shelf effect" is more commonly associated with distant undersea earthquakes and the magnification of a relatively small water displacement into a tsunami.  Not really the same effect as gravitational ocean tides.

Its exactly the same thing. Whether the water is disturbed by the moon or an earthquake, you still get the same multiplier effect when that water meets a shallow ocean bed.

If that were the case, tidal power wouldn't be limited to specific geographical locations, and you could build an artificial tidal power basin anywhere in the world.

[coppice]

The terminology "continental shelf effect" is more commonly associated with distant undersea earthquakes and the magnification of a relatively small water displacement into a tsunami.  Not really the same effect as gravitational ocean tides.

Its exactly the same thing. Whether the water is disturbed by the moon or an earthquake, you still get the same multiplier effect when that water meets a shallow ocean bed.

If that were the case, tidal power wouldn't be limited to specific geographical locations, and you could build an artificial tidal power basin anywhere in the world.

Huh? That will need some explaining.

[Gyro]

I sometimes wonder if we will ever have a government brave enough to throw some form of tidal barrage across the Bristol Channel. It has the second highest tidal range in the world and depending how far out it is placed, a colossal volume of water on the move. Even an incomplete barrage (leaving a shipping channel) would increase the water flow over turbines greatly on either side, while reducing the inevitable environmental impact.

[EPAIII]

It's more economical to build a few big dams than lots of small water wheels. But it's possible the water wheels would make a comeback where the disadvantages of a dam are problematic.

Your first sentence is it, pure and simple. As for a comeback of smaller ones, I doubt it. Just too much effort for too little return other than here and there where circumstances are downright ideal for them. I had a friend in Iowa who was off the grid. He had his own windmill and batteries for when the wind was not blowing. He had a hard time keeping it running and the wind was not all that constant. So, yes it was problematic.

[Hydro]

[Smokey]

or this guy...

[Hydro]

... and this one

[Hydro]

.... and more...

[rdl]

Seems like a reasonable thing to try in some situations. Surely they can be built to last 10-15 years? They were probably able to do at least that good back in the medieval times.

[coppercone2]

i was trying to imagine a treez post about this but IDK what it would be. Something about sub par pot metal castings MTBF when used as a water wheels maybe

so basically the same thing as the engineers behind the rotor in my old washing machine, that turned into 10lb of zinc crystal.

[Kleinstein]

Water wheels are not especially efficient. For hydro power one usually needs quite some maintainance and care for cleaning and provisions for high water levels. At least the wheel has to withstand a normal high water event, that often come with wood drifting down the rivers.

Hydro power was used in the old times quite abit, but especially small scale hydro was also quick to be replaced once coal power was available.

[SiliconWizard]

Yes, it looks like we're rediscovering old tech thinking this is gonna be a breakthrough.

[soldar]

A friend of mine lives in a new-build estate that has a water wheel along a major river.  The water wheel generates a peak of 200kW. 

A 200 kW water wheel? Where can I see it? What are the dimensions? I find it difficult to believe.

[Hydro]

Yes, it looks like we're rediscovering old tech thinking this is gonna be a breakthrough.

You're right.
We have to return to old technologies, but at a more innovative level

This is probably better than building dams across rivers with all the negative consequences.
Moreover, dams cannot always be built everywhere.
And where it was possible, they have already built it.
And there are fewer and fewer places on the planet where dams could be built. The resource for construction of damage-free dams is being exhausted.
 

A 200 kW water wheel? Where can I see it? What are the dimensions? I find it difficult to believe.

By the way, the power of such a turbine depends on the cube of the flow velocity. Therefore, if the flow speed, for example, increases by 3 times, then the power increases by 27 times !!