Author Topic: Why don't we make [more] use of water wheels?  (Read 13442 times)

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Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2024, 05:03:14 am »
A 200 kW water wheel? Where can I see it? What are the dimensions? I find it difficult to believe.
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2024, 05:06:51 am »
By the way, the power of such a turbine depends on the cube of the flow velocity. Therefore, if the flow speed, for example, increases by 3 times, then the power increases by 27 times !!
In the debate between turbine versus wheel, there was a similar experiment conducted by the British Navy.

Basically two steam ships, HMS Rattler with a propellor, and HMS Alecto with paddle wheels, were tied together stern to stern and had a tug-o-war.

https://www.memorialsinportsmouth.co.uk/dockyard/rattler.htm

Although propulsion seems different to energy generation, the fluid dynamics principles remain the same.
 

Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2024, 05:58:42 am »
Well, actually, here we are talking not only about propellors or paddle wheels, but in general about the use of free-flow turbines.
Here is another option based on the Darrieus-Gorlov rotor.

This is Denver, USA

 

Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2024, 06:12:02 am »
Here is an approximate table of the efficiency of such rotors

 

Offline Smokey

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2024, 06:25:56 am »
I've got it..... (with the help of chatgpt)...

Solar... Freaking... Waterwheels!!

18% efficient solar panels + 85% efficient water wheels = 103% efficiency right!?!?

« Last Edit: January 02, 2024, 06:49:50 am by Smokey »
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2024, 06:30:56 am »
Nice one!
 

Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2024, 10:40:21 am »
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2024, 12:44:59 pm »
A 200 kW water wheel? Where can I see it? What are the dimensions? I find it difficult to believe.


Soldar is right to be skeptical! That picture shows a 1.5kW prototype - iess than 1% of 200kW!
https://halesturbine.blogspot.com/2012/05/tidal-turbine-testing-cancelled-on.html
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Offline soldar

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2024, 04:47:50 pm »
Soldar is right to be skeptical! That picture shows a 1.5kW prototype - iess than 1% of 200kW!
Not only that but to me a turbine is not a water wheel. To me they are completely different things.

This is a water wheel, a very large one
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Laxey_Wheel_08676u.jpg

This is a turbine, a very large one
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Sanxia_Runner04_300.jpg
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Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2024, 07:17:35 am »
Yes, you tripped over the terminology

This is a turbine, also called a "head water turbine".

A free-flow turbine can be a wheel, a propeller, or a helical turbine.
Or like this one
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2024, 10:56:53 am »
This is a total waste of time. Hales Turbine is a guy working out of his home who has produced some papers which he says prove something but the rest of the world seems uninterested. And has produced some prototypes, many years ago, and the world seems uninterested. 

From where I sit it looks like smoke and mirrors. And one of the many schemes to find "investors" and separate them from their money.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2024, 11:01:33 am »
Yes, you tripped over the terminology

This is a turbine, also called a "head water turbine".

A free-flow turbine can be a wheel, a propeller, or a helical turbine.
Or like this one

This exchange reminds me of the "Dave's not here" dialog



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Offline Berni

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2024, 11:37:41 am »
Water wheels are just not very efficient and have other technical challenges.

They still need structures to capture and funnel the flow of water onto them from a height drop, or if you just dip one into a river you are letting most of the water flow past. The rotation you get out of it is pretty slow, so you need to also convert that into something at a faster RPM to be used in a generator. Derbies will float into it and jam stuff..etc

The main advantage you get from using modern turbines is that you feed them over a pipe. This means you can place the turbine in a place low down where it has a lot of height difference from the water surface. So you get a lot of pressure at the turbine inlet, meaning the small blades can produce a lot of force. They also spin faster so they may be directly coupled to generators. This way a fairly compact turbine and generator combo can produce a lot of power. Floating derbies will stay at the surface where they can be either cleaned up or let down stream trough water gates. The dams also tend to simultaneously serve as a way of water control, smoothing out the flow of the river to prevent it from flooding during a sudden burst of heavy rainfall, while saving water for later in dry seasons.

Waterwheels are attractive just because they are simple devices that you can dip into a random river and have it produce power. That is why they were popular in the old days. But now our hunger for power is much bigger and so we need ways that can harness as much power as possible from the rivers that are available, so we need more efficient designs.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2024, 11:41:00 am by Berni »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2024, 11:45:24 am »
If you're going to use a water wheel to power something it must have a scale of 0 to 50 for the output power.
And if anyone sets it to 50 you must immediately yell.. "Not to 50!"

The reason for this I will not go into here, but if you know you know  ;)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2024, 11:47:09 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline Hydro

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« Last Edit: January 03, 2024, 11:58:50 am by Hydro »
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2024, 10:58:38 pm »
Mini Hydro Company Raises $18M to Generate Power in Canals





This just looks like a water channel immersion blender.  Good to know all the fish will be a nice consistent food-processed paste at the bottom.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2024, 01:20:57 am by Smokey »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2024, 01:17:59 am »
Let's make some soup.
 

Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2024, 03:47:45 am »
1. This is an irrigation canal. There is no fish in it.

2. Do you know how the fish passage at a hydroelectric power station works?

3. The rpm of this "blender" is so low that it does not pose a problem for fish.

4. Do you believe that the company raised millions of dollars to make fish soup and cannot take action against it?
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2024, 08:50:40 am »
Maybe it's my eyesight but I fail to see this as a profitable investment ... except for the ones collecting the money.

Those generators in a ditch cannot generate more that a few hundred watts each, at most. I suppose they could have applications in very specific cases but they would have to be very cheap to buy and maintain in order to be competitive with solar panels or other forms of generation.

I just do not see it.
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Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2024, 09:00:09 am »
I haven't seen this before either.
Now I see
 

Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2024, 10:52:50 am »
Maybe it's my eyesight but I fail to see this as a profitable investment ... except for the ones collecting the money.

Those generators in a ditch cannot generate more that a few hundred watts each, at most. I suppose they could have applications in very specific cases but they would have to be very cheap to buy and maintain in order to be competitive with solar panels or other forms of generation.

I just do not see it.
How much will a solar power plant with a capacity of 4 kW and a daily electricity generation of 10 kW*h cost?
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2024, 11:15:28 am »
How much will a solar power plant with a capacity of 4 kW and a daily electricity generation of 10 kW*h cost?
I do not care to even begin to investigate. You can do it if you feel like it.

The difference is that solar is available much more widely than ditches. If you can't get solar you definitely do not have a nearby ditch with running water. The number of people who have a ditch with permanently running water nearby is tiny compared to those who can look up and see the sun shinning.

Solar has a much larger market which makes it cheaper and more widely available. Also no moving parts, no corrosion, much less maintenance.

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Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2024, 11:27:42 am »
How much will a solar power plant with a capacity of 4 kW and a daily electricity generation of 10 kW*h cost?
I do not care to even begin to investigate. You can do it if you feel like it.

The difference is that solar is available much more widely than ditches. If you can't get solar you definitely do not have a nearby ditch with running water. The number of people who have a ditch with permanently running water nearby is tiny compared to those who can look up and see the sun shinning.

Solar has a much larger market which makes it cheaper and more widely available. Also no moving parts, no corrosion, much less maintenance.
No one is saying that by introducing such technologies it is necessary to abolish solar, wind, nuclear, and gas power plants.
This is just an addition and an alternative to them where possible.
And the capacity factor of a solar power plant is 4-5 times less than that of such a hydroelectric station.
And its kWh cost will be several times more expensive.
Not to mention that after a few years the batteries will need to be thrown away and replaced with others. And pay an environmental tax at the same time.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2024, 11:32:13 am by Hydro »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2024, 11:34:08 am »
If you think this is promising you can invest your money in this venture. I think I will hang onto mine for now.
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Offline Hydro

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Re: Why don't we make use of water wheels?
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2024, 11:36:45 am »
Yes, I do it in my own way.
I don't force you to do this.
 


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