Why don't we make [more] use of water wheels?

[Andy Chee]

And the capacity factor of a solar power plant is 4-5 times less than that of such a hydroelectric station.
And its kWh cost will be several times more expensive.

You keep ignoring that there's often a lot more land area for solar panels, compared to rivers and waterways for hydropower.

For example, Ethiopia or Sudan has no water, therefore solar power will always have much more capacity than hydro.

Also the Moon and Mars has no water, so you need to use solar panels (or nuclear).

So be specific about which country has under-developed hydro resources.  Are you talking about Pakistan electric power? Or UK electric power?  Which country???

[Hydro]

You are probably not reading carefully yourself.
I will repeat.

No one is saying that by introducing such technologies it is necessary to abolish solar, wind, nuclear, and gas power plants.
This is just an addition and an alternative to them where possible.

Above are many links to which countries these technologies are being developed.
For example, the USA, the UK, Canada, India, the Netherlands, and many countries in Africa.
This is not a complete list.

[mendip_discovery]

Sorry when I first posted the subject I failed to add in a "more" in the subject.

Where I live we have the plight of solar farms, taking up large areas of arable land becuase the government gave a promise of lots of money for doing it. No crops are grown though some have animals grazing but not seen too much of that myself.

I was just liking the idea that we could keep the wheels turning and generate a few kW of electricity at the same time. The Americans Tourists will love it. I'm not overly fussed over hyper efficient systems just ones that could be used to add to the renewable sources without harming wildlife. Water does have the benefit of in many parts of the UK that it works at night and even in high winds.

[Hydro]

That's it !
The capacity factor of such micropower plants is almost 100%
Have you seen this?

[AVGresponding]

Doesn't work so well in the height of summer when the rivers are low.

Is this some kind of joke, troll, scam, or just colossal naivete? Undershot water wheels are literally the least efficient method of extracting energy from flowing water.

[coppice]

Doesn't work so well in the height of summer when the rivers are low.

Is this some kind of joke, troll, scam, or just colossal naivete? Undershot water wheels are literally the least efficient method of extracting energy from flowing water.

That hasn't stopped them being used since ancient times to irrigate fields. If you have some flow, but no sudden drop these undershot paddle pumps are quick and easy to drop into place where you need them. No infrastructure is required. You just need to anchor them.

[coromonadalix]

the classic 

[Hydro]

the classic

No. This is a classic 

[Canis Dirus Leidy]

Those generators in a ditch cannot generate more that a few hundred watts each, at most. I suppose they could have applications in very specific cases but they would have to be very cheap to buy and maintain

Well, in the "pre Р-63" USSR, such power plants were somewhat popular in rural areas because they could be manufactured by the local machinery and tractors station or vocational school workshop, and the generated power (several kilowatts) was enough for tasks like "lighting of the collective farm stable and cowshed".

[AVGresponding]

Doesn't work so well in the height of summer when the rivers are low.

Is this some kind of joke, troll, scam, or just colossal naivete? Undershot water wheels are literally the least efficient method of extracting energy from flowing water.

That hasn't stopped them being used since ancient times to irrigate fields. If you have some flow, but no sudden drop these undershot paddle pumps are quick and easy to drop into place where you need them. No infrastructure is required. You just need to anchor them.

Fair point. My comment was meant purely and solely in the context of generating power.

[Kleinstein]

A problem with small hydropower is that the power is small and the maintenane (e.g. lubrication, removing debris) costs and often also building costs are relatively high. There is also a rather limtied amout of hydro power.
There are few cases where small hydro like the floating waterwheels work, but this is rare. E.g. the floating wheel to pump water may have a power of some 100-300 W or about the equivalent of 1/3 to 1 solar panels. With the lower power factor for solar one may need 2 to get a similar energy with way less maintenance and better reliability. For pumping water one often does not need battery backup. For irrigation it helps that is is ofen needed most when there it's sunny. A suitable flowing water is also not that common - to slow a flow and it no longer has the power to drive the pump. This makes the solutions specific (adapt the gear and power level) to the location.

Large scale hydro with a significant drop (e.g. at a dam with sufficient hight) can be cost effective, but also this power is limited to only a few places.

[EPAIII]

And if you add a Dutch windmill ......... 200% efficiency!

I've got it..... (with the help of chatgpt)...

Solar... Freaking... Waterwheels!!

18% efficient solar panels + 85% efficient water wheels = 103% efficiency right!?!?

[EPAIII]

I am a pragmatist, plain and simple. If it works, then for gosh sakes, DO IT.

But if it doesn't, then stop wasting my tax money on it. I mean, REALLY!

[mendip_discovery]

I am a pragmatist, plain and simple. If it works, then for gosh sakes, DO IT.

But if it doesn't, then stop wasting my tax money on it. I mean, REALLY!

Lol, if they didn't waste it then what would they spend it on. Thier donors needs some sort of kickback.

When I win the lottery i will build my own water mill and see how it goes.

[Kleinstein]

I just realized how stupid some some of the water wheel powered water pumps are: they need a relatively fast flowing water to work at all. So water at a higher elivation needs to be a available not too far upstream. So a slightly longer hose, a bit upstream would also work, just less spectecular and more reliable.

[Hydro]

I just realized how stupid some some of the water wheel powered water pumps are: they need a relatively fast flowing water to work at all. So water at a higher elivation needs to be a available not too far upstream. So a slightly longer hose, a bit upstream would also work, just less spectecular and more reliable.

Do you think so ?
Does water flow where from and where to ?

[pcprogrammer]

Steve Mould did a video on this type of pump.



He explains it really well. The output is not continuous and won't have much pressure on it.

[tggzzz]

I just realized how stupid some some of the water wheel powered water pumps are: they need a relatively fast flowing water to work at all. So water at a higher elivation needs to be a available not too far upstream. So a slightly longer hose, a bit upstream would also work, just less spectecular and more reliable.

Do you think so ?
Does water flow where from and where to ?

Or you could just use a hydraulic ram; they are well proven in operation. Even in the UK, some were used for mains water supply within my lifetime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram "Priestly's Hydraulic Ram, built in 1890 in Idaho, was a "marvelous" invention, apparently independent, which lifted water 110 feet (34 m) to provide irrigation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly%27s_Hydraulic_Ram

[Hydro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=o9vpVExV1UM

[G7PSK]

I think you will find that in the UK all the water belongs to the local water company or the Crown, if you want to use it even in a water wheel or small turbine the aforesaid will charge you for the pleasure. This alone could make it unaffordable unless there is historical rights for the said use such as a very old water powered mill where the water wheel can be used.
Some years ago I was involved with the restoration of a Victorian era water turbine that operated a saw mill on an estate, the turbine dated from 1863 but had been unused for many years and despite being fed from a man made lake on the estate the lake was fed from a small river.
The amount of paper work and the hoops that had to be jumped through that wee put up by the environment and various other agencies.

[Hydro]

I think you will find that in the UK all the water belongs to the local water company or the Crown, if you want to use it even in a water wheel or small turbine the aforesaid will charge you for the pleasure.

1. We are talking here not only about the UK or Pakistan, but on a more global scale. I think that in many countries there is no such problem or it is solved quite simply.

2. In this case, there are antitrust laws. I don't know how well such laws work in the UK. In Pakistan is not doing well yet, but there are trends for improvement.

3. Even if you pay a tax for water, in any case it may turn out to be more profitable than buying electricity from suppliers.

4. Under all circumstances, it is necessary to increase the energy efficiency of such turbines and their profitability.
And one of the possible ways is probably here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unusual-design-of-a-free-flow-hydropower-station/msg5268390/#msg5268390

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unusual-design-of-a-free-flow-hydropower-station/msg5257110/#msg5257110

It is stated that a method has been invented to increase the efficiency of such turbines from 15-20% to 50%.
I have not yet seen adequate refutations of this.

[Hydro]

http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/

[Hydro]

Some years ago I was involved with the restoration of a Victorian era water turbine that operated a saw mill on an estate, the turbine dated from 1863 but had been unused for many years and despite being fed from a man made lake on the estate the lake was fed from a small river.

G7PSK, is this the wheel you restored?

Edited by gnif: Copyrighted content removed.

[Hydro]

Back in the day the UK we had thousands of water wheels that were used in industry. Why can't we do somthing similar to the small wind farms and use small hydro generation.

Edited by gnif: Copyrighted content removed.

[coppice]

Back in the day the UK we had thousands of water wheels that were used in industry. Why can't we do somthing similar to the small wind farms and use small hydro generation.

Many of those old water wheels only operated for a small part of the year, when flow was high. When the high flow rate coincided with need, like harvest time for grinding wheat, they worked out well and were built. When the high flow rate did not match up with needs, nobody built. Only a few places had a natural continuous flow, usually on the direct outflow of a large lake. Most continuously operating hydro power plants involved a large scale civil engineering job to construct a dam and a lake.