Author Topic: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?  (Read 6603 times)

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Offline kalel

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2018, 07:51:39 am »
Is it possible that some of us are better at seeing the flicker than others?

The ones I have seen so far do not flicker at all. The only time I saw visible flicker was from a Chinese night light that had a half-wave rectifier and an inadequate capacitor. But that's quite obvious, low frequency flicker. However, I can see monitor flickering on those that show some.

I can also see the "power on" RED LED flicker on some devices when moving my eyes across (or the finger thing, or seeing through the corner of the eye). However, whatever I try I don't see it on the filament bulbs (I did not see a high sample amount though).

I could try to see the flicker through a phone camera, but I'm not sure how representative that is. Cameras have their own refresh rate, so it will depend on whether or not the light is "in sync".
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 07:53:32 am by kalel »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2018, 02:35:57 pm »
I personally don't like these bulbs.
The only application where I like them is in that golden glass colored retro big bulbs for 1930s retro applications.

For new LED lighting I never would choose:
- HV (110-230V) leds
- E27 bulb replacements (GU10 is ok'ish).

I don't get it if you really really want a lightbulb with its orange glow when dimmed than buy a lightbulb not a ledreplacement.
Or better get in the led century: design your lighting conditions with multiple different lightsources and choose the settings (scenes) for the application, meaning if you have a dinnertable where you study and also like to eat in a romantic atmosphere you need more different lightsources with different colortemperatures and lumens to choose from. With for instance the modern tunable white color led bulbs you can do anything your creativity can imagine.

These filaments is like when in the late 19th century they designed automobiles to replace the horses, they would have put an engine in an iron horse and let it run with four robotised legs instead of integrating it in the carriage. This is so....... not getting what led could do, or just unable to change and stick to what you knew.
 
Take a look at modern light led fixtures, they are pieces of art and have a magnificent lighting pattern.
Yes you have to replace them after 25 years unless you are an electronic engineer and can replace the leds  :)
Throw out your old E27 fixtures (unless they are design and worth considerable amount of money) and join the new century of lighting  :)
 
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Offline kalel

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2018, 02:49:57 pm »
As replacement bulbs are relatively cheap, I'm not sure that expensive fixtures (unless they are cheap too) are more economical. If they really last 15 years, maybe so, but I assume it's not always the case.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2018, 03:25:44 pm »
If "economical" was the only parameter in a lighting decision everyone would buy the very cold white 6500K industrial lamps with a 150Lm/W efficacy.  ;)

I visit people that have modern design leather couches/chairs and cabinets costing thousands of $ , but their lighting fixtures are from the Ikea kind of stores. I can't resist asking why they didn't buy their furniture from the Ikea to match the lighting  ;D
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2018, 07:47:30 pm »
When you buy your lighting with style in mind there is no way you can predict a 25 year life.  Style changes much more quickly than that.  Depending on where you are and how conscious of these things you are things can be horribly outdated in less than a decade.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2018, 08:48:01 pm »
See if you can find the Ecosmart brand. They don't seem to have any flicker. (6.5 W, 810 lumens)

The ones I got are Ecosmart, I was looking at some other lamps when I said Commercial Electric originally.

A lot of people can't see the flicker but I can, I've had people tell me I'm making it up but I'm certainly not, I wish I couldn't see it. I remember back in the day seeing people use CRT monitors set to 60Hz refresh rate and it was like looking into a strobe light, multiple people looked at it and asked me "what flicker?" Some people's eyes must respond more slowly, or their brain is better at tuning it out.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2018, 08:53:31 pm »
As replacement bulbs are relatively cheap, I'm not sure that expensive fixtures (unless they are cheap too) are more economical. If they really last 15 years, maybe so, but I assume it's not always the case.


My house was built in the 1970s so I try to have mostly period correct vintage light fixtures. When I bought the place somebody had tried to update it by putting in some hideous cheap modern looking light fixtures that looked completely out of place. I hate the "Home Depot remodel" look that is so common around here, I don't give a rat's ass about fashion fads, I just want everything to look roughly the same era.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2018, 09:01:02 pm »
I don't get it if you really really want a lightbulb with its orange glow when dimmed than buy a lightbulb not a ledreplacement.
We can't buy traditional lightbulbs any more. The only options that will fit are LED, CFL or halogen.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2018, 09:06:22 pm »
Haha, hard to think of '70s as period vintage, you guys always did have a distorted sense of history  :P  Actually, looking back, I suppose it it a fair while ago.  :(
Chris

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Offline james_s

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2018, 09:10:19 pm »
Haha, hard to think of '70s as period vintage, you guys always did have a distorted sense of history  :P  Actually, looking back, I suppose it it a fair while ago.  :(


The 1970s are as long ago now as the 1940s were when I was born. Time flies.

A lot of the "vintage" computers and video games I'm interested in are from the 80s, that's quite a long time ago now too.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2018, 09:13:28 pm »
Quote
Time flies.

Scarily so, and accelerating!
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2018, 09:20:10 pm »
I don't get it if you really really want a lightbulb with its orange glow when dimmed than buy a lightbulb not a ledreplacement.
We can't buy traditional lightbulbs any more. The only options that will fit are LED, CFL or halogen.
The halogen lightbulb replacements have identical behaviour in color as traditional lightbulbs when dimming.
It is correct that >100W bulbs will no longer be available but that is hardly the bulb you would dim for "mood" light, what many are complaining about.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2018, 09:24:04 pm »
Halogen bulbs are rapidly vanishing here too outside of a few compact quartz capsule types and decorative lamps. The market was never very big for halogen retrofits for standard incandescent, the small improvement in efficiency is not worth the high cost of the lamps, LED bulbs are significantly cheaper now and far more efficient.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2018, 09:27:24 pm »
I forgot to mention that some manufacturers are already integrating red(dish) leds in their led bulbs that start to imitate the warmer mood lighting when dimming.
It will never be perfect eg infinite steps like with a traditional bulb but over time it will come close.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2018, 09:31:55 pm »
I forgot to mention that some manufacturers are already integrating red(dish) leds in their led bulbs that start to imitate the warmer mood lighting when dimming.
It will never be perfect eg infinite steps like with a traditional bulb but over time it will come close.
Citizen make a COB device with red LEDs integrated, which gets warmer at lower currents. Obviously you can't PWM dim it..
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Offline glarsson

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2018, 09:55:40 pm »
The halogen lightbulb replacements have identical behaviour in color as traditional lightbulbs when dimming.
It is correct that >100W bulbs will no longer be available but that is hardly the bulb you would dim for "mood" light, what many are complaining about.
"will no longer be available"? It is 2018 and 100W bulbs were phased out in the EU in 2009!
Timeline:
2009: Clear 100W bulbs and all frosted bulbs phased out.
2010: Clear 75W bulbs phased out.
2010: Clear 60W bulbs phased out.
2010: Clear 50, 25 and 15W bulbs phased out.
2018: Halogen bulbs (energy class C-D) phased out.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2018, 11:33:05 am »
Is it possible that some of us are better at seeing the flicker than others?
Definitely. I get sick from a bright flickering light, while others just stand there, and have no idea what I'm talking about. There was a lot of research for VR, and they concluded, that 90Hz most of the people did not experience sickness. But you are able to detect an LED if it is only on for 1 ms. Human perception is weird.
I think it also changes with age, because people with BMWs and Teslas actively blind you every single night you drive.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2018, 07:55:55 pm »
Those PWM modulated LED tail lights are awful, the flicker is pronounced and extremely distracting. I'm not sure why either, it would have been trivial to use a higher PWM frequency.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2018, 11:20:58 pm »
For those of you looking for info on led lighting flicker, the magic google phrase is the “flicker fusion threshold”. And it turns out that to completely eliminate it even in worst case scenarios (small point light sources heavily dimmed [low duty cycle] while saccading at full speed), it takes a PWM frequency of about 3KHz IIRC. I’ve got another post on here somewhere going into more detail.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 11:51:10 am by tooki »
 

Online Someone

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2018, 01:40:56 am »
Is it possible that some of us are better at seeing the flicker than others?

The ones I have seen so far do not flicker at all. The only time I saw visible flicker was from a Chinese night light that had a half-wave rectifier and an inadequate capacitor. But that's quite obvious, low frequency flicker. However, I can see monitor flickering on those that show some.

I can also see the "power on" RED LED flicker on some devices when moving my eyes across (or the finger thing, or seeing through the corner of the eye). However, whatever I try I don't see it on the filament bulbs (I did not see a high sample amount though).

I could try to see the flicker through a phone camera, but I'm not sure how representative that is. Cameras have their own refresh rate, so it will depend on whether or not the light is "in sync".
As above from tooki there is a wide range of variation from person to person, typical "most people won't see it" depends on many factors and how the source is viewed. Your vision field has varying sensitivities to flicker across it, typically much more sensitive in the peripheral vision. I'll expand on it below but relative motion is also important in flicker perception, for LED lamps viewing in the peripheral vision while turning your head or walking quickly can cause the effect but stopping or looking at it the flicker disappears. For a diffuse light in full field view the upper limit is around 90Hz in extreme cases and 60Hz is not far above average.

Is it possible that some of us are better at seeing the flicker than others?
Definitely. I get sick from a bright flickering light, while others just stand there, and have no idea what I'm talking about. There was a lot of research for VR, and they concluded, that 90Hz most of the people did not experience sickness. But you are able to detect an LED if it is only on for 1 ms. Human perception is weird.
I think it also changes with age, because people with BMWs and Teslas actively blind you every single night you drive.
This research around spatial orientation and motion sickness is less about flicker and more to do with the typical movement speeds of the scene. You don't get motion sickness walking around in a stroboscopic environment but the moving reference of the VR display confuses the brain and does cause motion sickness, pick any threshold and if you move your head/body faster the display rate needs to increase.

Those PWM modulated LED tail lights are awful, the flicker is pronounced and extremely distracting. I'm not sure why either, it would have been trivial to use a higher PWM frequency.
Speed is the key here. The relative motion of the lights in your frame can be very high and/or the pulses can become discontinuous which is extremely distracting. This has been a problem with bicycle lights for a long time as many countries allow flashing/strobing and the only requirement is static visibility at a certain distance, not accurate location in motion. To save power the typical bicycle light uses an extremely short duty cycle with obvious dark periods and on the road it appears as a dot jumping around and is extremely hard to estimate the heading of the vehicle.
 
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Online Nusa

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2018, 02:12:46 am »
Quote
Speed is the key here. The relative motion of the lights in your frame can be very high and/or the pulses can become discontinuous which is extremely distracting. This has been a problem with bicycle lights for a long time as many countries allow flashing/strobing and the only requirement is static visibility at a certain distance, not accurate location in motion. To save power the typical bicycle light uses an extremely short duty cycle with obvious dark periods and on the road it appears as a dot jumping around and is extremely hard to estimate the heading of the vehicle.
To be fair, for the bicycle rider the most important objective is to be seen AT ALL. A strobe is FAR more effective for that than a steady light. The good ones are even effective in daylight conditions.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2018, 10:29:03 am »
In my experience, the duty cycle is also important for flicker, with lower duty cycle being more noticeable.

Speaking as a cyclist, I think being able to see is as or more important than being seen. I've had accidents because the lights I was using weren't bright enough.

To answer the original question. LED filament bulbs are great, but not everyone wants something that has the same appearance and lighting pattern as an incandescent lamp. Flicker wise, not all LED filament bulbs are equal: some are better/worse than others.
 

Offline TheWelly888

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2018, 11:39:22 am »
Do you live under a rock? 100W equivalent LED bulbs have been widely available for several years.

...but not in the filament style, which is the subject of this thread.

There you go:  8)


100W equivalent 1500Lumen 2700K

Unfortunately not yet available - Amazon has the bulb on their website but out of stock with no known delivery date. Hope they become available before Christmas (Which Christmas?)
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Offline hayatepilot

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #98 on: February 06, 2018, 12:10:52 pm »
Do you live under a rock? 100W equivalent LED bulbs have been widely available for several years.

...but not in the filament style, which is the subject of this thread.

There you go:  8)


100W equivalent 1500Lumen 2700K

Unfortunately not yet available - Amazon has the bulb on their website but out of stock with no known delivery date. Hope they become available before Christmas (Which Christmas?)
Where I live they are in stock at the local retailers...
And the german amazon site has them in stock too.
Maybe they are only available in 220V  ???
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 12:13:17 pm by hayatepilot »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Why haven't filament LED bulbs taken over the market?
« Reply #99 on: February 06, 2018, 02:27:55 pm »
Do you live under a rock? 100W equivalent LED bulbs have been widely available for several years.

...but not in the filament style, which is the subject of this thread.

There you go:  8)


100W equivalent 1500Lumen 2700K

Unfortunately not yet available - Amazon has the bulb on their website but out of stock with no known delivery date. Hope they become available before Christmas (Which Christmas?)
Where I live they are in stock at the local retailers...
Which ones?
 


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