Author Topic: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?  (Read 19670 times)

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Offline CirclotronTopic starter

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Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« on: September 18, 2020, 10:49:46 pm »
The 741 might have been a big deal in its day, but things have moved on. Nowadays we have a zillion different op amps to choose from, ranging from similar to vastly improved performance. I can’t remember the last time I saw one in a piece of equipment. And no one with a grip on reality designs them into new products. And even in the case of repairs for old equipment there would surely be modern substitutes available. And get this - I was looking at the TI 741 data sheet and it says the 741 “feature(s) improved performance over industry standards like the LM709.” The LM709 might indeed have been an industry standard fifty years ago but it’s a bit of a stretch to still refer to it as that. We’re in the age of GPUs with 28.3 *billion* transistors. It’s time the 741 was put to bed. It’s fine to read all about it from a historical point of view. That great, but I think school textbooks should stop using it as an example as if it were a mainstream device. But what to replace it with? Over to you.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:51:35 pm by Circlotron »
 

Offline Fixpoint

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2020, 11:12:20 pm »
I don't see any relation between the fact that we have powerful GPUs and that a simple Op-amp is still produced. A GPU has nothing to do with what an Op-amp does.

I don't know all the prices, but I guess the 741 is very cheap? If a company can save even 1 cent per unit in a production run, it will take the deal. After all, the game is not played in terms of performance but in terms of $. For me, the question would become interesting it it turns out that the 741 is actually more expensive than the competition!

And so, I personally don't see any reason why a component should be replaced if it does the job and there is healthy demand, no matter how old it may be. But I'm no expert, maybe someone else here knows the details.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 11:19:19 pm by Fixpoint »
 
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Offline eti

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2020, 11:22:40 pm »
It's still produced because it's still being used.

It's still produced because people want it.

It's still produced because it's not discontinued.

What answer are you seeking?  :)

Next up in open-ended forum question thread titles : "Why are <insert arbitrary choice> discrete ICs still being produced?"

Just because new thing exists, doesn't disqualilfy old thing. NEW world needs to shut up and listen to OLD wisdom more, new world thinks it's "advanced" (yeah, okay then  ;D)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 11:25:23 pm by eti »
 
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Offline CirclotronTopic starter

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2020, 11:24:14 pm »
I don't see any relation between the fact that we have powerful GPUs and that a simple Op-amp is still produced. A GPU has nothing to do with what an Op-amp does.

And so, I personally don't see any reason why a component should be replaced if it does the job and there is healthy demand, no matter how old it may be.
Of course a GPU has nothing to do with an op amp. It was just an example of how ic fabrication technology has moved on. And is there really still a healthy demand for 741s. Where are they all being used?
 

Offline eti

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2020, 11:26:55 pm »
I don't see any relation between the fact that we have powerful GPUs and that a simple Op-amp is still produced. A GPU has nothing to do with what an Op-amp does.

And so, I personally don't see any reason why a component should be replaced if it does the job and there is healthy demand, no matter how old it may be.
Of course a GPU has nothing to do with an op amp. It was just an example of how ic fabrication technology has moved on. And is there really still a healthy demand for 741s. Where are they all being used?

Idea: Write to all the major distributors & manufacturer(s) and ask them who their biggest customers/what their main applications are :)
 
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Offline CirclotronTopic starter

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2020, 11:27:32 pm »
It's still produced because it's not discontinued.
Yep! You got me there.  :)
 
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Offline eti

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2020, 11:29:24 pm »
It's still produced because it's not discontinued.
Yep! You got me there.  :)

 ;D Sorry, I couldn't resist :P
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2020, 11:30:12 pm »
The 741 might have been a big deal in its day, but things have moved on. Nowadays we have a zillion different op amps to choose from, ranging from similar to vastly improved performance. I can’t remember the last time I saw one in a piece of equipment. And no one with a grip on reality designs them into new products. And even in the case of repairs for old equipment there would surely be modern substitutes available. And get this - I was looking at the TI 741 data sheet and it says the 741 “feature(s) improved performance over industry standards like the LM709.” The LM709 might indeed have been an industry standard fifty years ago but it’s a bit of a stretch to still refer to it as that. We’re in the age of GPUs with 28.3 *billion* transistors. It’s time the 741 was put to bed. It’s fine to read all about it from a historical point of view. That great, but I think school textbooks should stop using it as an example as if it were a mainstream device. But what to replace it with? Over to you.

I stopped using it a decade or more ago. My jellybean is the LM358 now, also a methusalem. I dont think the LM741 is run high volumes and a lot of parts on the market are from storage area cleaning activities, but there is always a small spare part and retrofitting market where you want to stay as close to the original. Apart from that: No idea. :)
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2020, 11:39:29 pm »
Three trascendental questions;

1- What is the true meaning of life?
2- Does the universe have a beginning or an end?
3- Who is still buying the 741 anyway?
 
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Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2020, 12:07:58 am »
I was looking at the TI 741 data sheet and it says the 741 “feature(s) improved performance over industry standards like the LM709.”

Where did you see that? I was browsing the 2018's revision of TI datasheet and didn't find any mention of LM709 at all. 

https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slos094g/slos094g.pdf

Quote
It’s time the 741 was put to bed.

I bet my bottom dollar that the 741 of today is not the 741 of yore. It is just a modern op amp that meets or exceeds what is expected of a 741 op amp. Kind of an Edison screw light bulb with LEDs inside.
 

Offline greenpossum

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2020, 12:22:30 am »
Over to you.

I don't know about you but I'm going back to thinking about what to have for lunch. Much more important question.  :=\ :-DD
 


Offline AlfBaz

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2020, 12:29:15 am »
741?
What I want to know is where are all my PUTs :scared:
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2020, 12:54:47 am »
It is quite impossible to find the demand with manufacturers, but you could follow a distrubutor's stock for a while and get a grasp on the demand for the "mass market" - this would still tell very little about the big OEMs demands, but it is a start. If the disty has tens of thousands in stock, there is a reason why they are there.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2020, 01:29:37 am »
I don't know about you but I'm going back to thinking about what to have for lunch. Much more important question.  :=\ :-DD

Maybe that's exactly what he's thinking.



 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2020, 01:46:53 am »
The 741 is one of those products that established a standard in its category. It is like the 6L6 (introduced in 1936), or the 555, 1N4007, 1N4148 or the 7400 and 4000 series. I would not fret they're still around. I'd celebrate their longevity. They managed to survive even in face of "better" options.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2020, 06:02:25 am »
I have seen one ST UA741 in an analog soldering station. At least that's what was written on it ::)
The station was some Atten IIRC.

I'm not sure if they are even cheaper than LM358. I have seen fake 741 with 358 inside :)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2020, 06:07:21 am »
Is the modern 741 still the same as the original 741? Or is it just a modern op-amp die that works in most applications that used a 741?
 

Offline magic

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2020, 06:33:42 am »
Those from reputable manufacturers should be legit. I have never looked at 741, but you can see 5532, 358 and 4558 dice on Zeptobars and they still implement the original topology and ought to meet the original specs. Perhaps with some perks like more consistent offset or less flicker and popcorn noise.

There is also some difference in die size. For example, modern 5532 from TI and ONS are noticably smaller than old-ass Signetics. In fact, Signetics die was too large to fit in SO8 so they offered it in wide SO16 with half of the pins unused, like LM10.

On AliBay all bets are off. I have made a thread on that. Most chips that I tested were 358 or 4558. And, I mean, heavily die-shrunk clones of those, presumably made in China. Never tested if they meet the specs, power output and dissipation would be particularly interesting. Some people reported in the past that fake 5532 behave like a 4558 when watched on a scope, so there is that.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 06:37:57 am by magic »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2020, 07:19:55 am »
For example, if you certified a product, you dont want to re-certify it, because a part is no longer made. so the longer they make it the batter. Sometimes, it doesnt need to be the shiniest part in your circuit, and if the 741 works, you dont want to change it. Sometimes clueless people blindly copy schematics and they end up with 30 year old pars in their brand new device, and spend all the time in the world trying to fix it in software.
It should just say NRND on the datasheet, and keep being produced.
 

Offline temperance

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2020, 10:29:20 am »
Where I work we solely use the metal can version:
https://www.mouser.be/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/LM741H-NOPB?qs=QbsRYf82W3G0muqZ4UBumg%3D%3D

We have them mounted by people wearing pure silk gloves to not have fingerprints on the shiny cans.

For many things you don't need fancy op amps.

Some applications where the LM741 or it's dual version are being used today:
-Current sensing in welding equipment.
-Amplifiers in intercom systems.
-Rectifiers in audio metering circuits.
-Switching power supplies auxiliary functions.
-Military and aerospace.


My favourites are the LM358 and the LM324.

The real question is:
how many pieces do you need? One or two or a few million and what are the requirements. An LM741 or even lower spec op amp will do just fine when all you are asked to do is drive s speaker in an intercom system. Some manufacturers even produce op amps far worse than an LM741 because the industry needs very low cost amplifiers. Examples can be found in the catalogue of NJR.

Companies producing products in quantities usually have an engineer doing nothing else then counting µCents just for fun. This engineer will even look at the tolerance of a 0402 resistor. Just because 20 million 5% resistors are cheaper than a 1% resistor.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2020, 11:21:21 am »
Last time I used two 741's was 35 years ago when someone brought me an audiophile's pre-amplifier for me to fix. I cannot remember the brand, but it was high-end and overpriced. It has poorly designed PCB inside in that it used a discrete component layout with tightly packed vertically mounted PTH resistors all over the place with painted leads to prevent shorts. One channel worked, the other was distorted. Split rails. No schematic available either. I simply scraped the paint off the post-input equalising circuitry on the good channel and measured the gain using a 1kHz sinewave generator. I then laid two 8-pin DIP 741 op amps upside down and wired in a circuit around the pins and potted the 741's in epoxy. I did both channels because the owner might detect a quality difference between the two. The owner said it has never sounded so clear and he was delighted. Makes one wonder why they did use 741's in the first place, other than the "black magic" of using discrete components.

Never needed to use a 741 since. I have used a lot of LM358's since.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2020, 11:28:45 am »
A general note on technology -- older tech of some manner or another will almost never completely go away.

Heh, hm, vacuum tubes, and horses for transportation, are probably two unusually good counterexamples.  They still remain of course, but only at a tiny fraction of their peak glory, and mainly because of enthusiasts willing to bear the cost.  It's fair that some stepping-stone technologies can be fully obsoleted, that's true, enthusiasts notwithstanding. :)

But for everything that exists as a current basis for higher technology, it's never going away, no matter how integrated that higher technology is.  Single BJTs and MOSFETs are still with us, as are op-amps and comparators, CD4000 and 74(LS)/HC logic, and all manner of MCUs from the 8051 (and even 4-bit machines, for that matter) to x86.  Which, heh, x86 itself, I mean... :-DD

(But not so much bit-serial machines, I think?  They were great back in the days of serial memory -- rotating drum or delay line.  Anyone know any current applications?)

Meanwhile, we absolutely have CPUs with stacked Flash and DRAM dies, integrated switching regulators and all manner of peripherals and controllers, to realize insanely powerful SoCs in pocket-sized packages, with short bills of materials -- in a given product, they've displaced a whole host of other components, but they haven't displaced them elsewhere, and I suspect never will. :)

And going further back, it's especially difficult to obsolete anything to do with handling of raw materials -- like ore mining and smelting will always be with us.  The exact manner in which they are done, can vary -- compare electrowinning and refining of copper, to the blast furnace it replaced.  And not that blast furnaces have gone away either, they're still king for iron as far as I know.  Industrial forging is done in a manner and scale hard to imagine from antiquity, but it also strains the imagination to think of some kind of, say, 3D printing process that is able to produce a similar grain structure in as short a time.  (But 3D printing also offers revolutionary opportunities in the design of intricate forms, otherwise-impossible cavities, and the use of difficult or otherwise impossible alloys and tempers, thanks to rapid fusion, directional solidification and powder metallurgy methods.)

Tim
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 11:31:30 am by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline CirclotronTopic starter

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2020, 12:49:53 pm »
Quote from: temperance link=topic=254270.msg3239684#msg3239684
My favourites are the LM358 and the LM324.ors are cheaper than a 1% resistor.
Yep, me too. One advantage the 741 does has over those two is the 741 has it's output transistors biased whereas the 358/324 has the bases of the output transistors simply strapped together. Good recipe for crossover distortion. You can of course add a pulldown resistor to the output, but yeah...
 

Offline magic

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Re: Why is the 741 op amp still produced?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2020, 02:53:52 pm »
Then RC4558 is for you. Even seems to be cheaper on Mouser and it's a dual. Although this one has phase reversal AFAIK...
 


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