why is the US not Metric

[tooki]

Not all metric advocacy is patronizing and sanctimonious. But what's contained in this thread mostly is. It hasn't been the American metrication advocates in this thread who've been patronizing and sanctimonious, it's been the European ones.

The US is the only country that has a metric "advocacy". The other countries don't waste their time discussing the benefits of the metric system, because it has been tried and tested for at least two centuries and it proved beyond any doubt that it is the ideal system for the era we are living.

And that gives you the right to be patronizing and sanctimonious, rude, and ignore actual facts given to you?

In the US people are still ridiculously debating whether to use it or not,

No, actually, they're not. In a given situation, it's almost always crystal clear which system should be used. And it's because of this axiom that the US has been gradually migrating to metric in most things.

And why in EVERY country, there remain things that are NOT metric!!! (It's infuriating how the metric advocates conveniently ignore this truth.)

and the arguments are the most stupid like the one by that guy James Panero, self entitled an "anti-metrite" in the second message of this thread (not to mention Tucker Carlson's opinions who's paid to play retarded).
What is alarming is to see exactly the same ideas, which were just exposed emphatically in that video, being held in the arguments in this thread, with less radical words, but carrying the same spirit. And I'm not talking about rstofer's arguments.

**yawn**

Talking about the metric system with some people in the US is sometimes almost like trying to explain the benefits of electricity to the Amish (some of them reportedly use very limited forms of electricity, by the way).

Oh, please, do try and lecture me about the Amish. Not like I ever a) lived right near the primary region of the US where the Amish live, b) lived in the country the Amish originally emigrated from, or c) did term papers about the Amish. Oh, wait, I have done all three.

Fundamentally the only thing is comes down to is arrogance.  We don't want to switch, why should we switch.

You are confusing arrogance and indifference. You are being arrogant. Americans are, for the most part, indifferent: it simply doesn't matter. We don't care.

And of course, you are continuing to repeat the nonsense about American companies forgoing foreign sales due to refusing to switch. Um, no, everywhere that it matters they HAVE ALREADY switched. 

[bsfeechannel]

Metric certainly doesn't prevent imprecision or confusion.  The metric system you have been touting, the self consistent and easy set of units has NOT been tried and tested for over two centuries.  Although the two basic units, the meter and the kilogram (and the scaling prefixes) are that old, the system is much newer.  The MKS system was introduced in 1889 and SI, the well thought out system was first introduced in 1948.

The metric system has been and will always be a work in progress, once we are constantly improving our knowledge, technology, precision and methods. So the whole history of the system accounts for its present success.

And even today could use some improvement.  The Kelvin and the related Celsius divide freezing and boiling point of water by 100 degrees.  Which may be convenient for something, but it results in a strange quantity for the temperature rise from putting a Joule of energy into a kilogram of water. 0.00263 degrees C.  It would be far more useful to have the metric temperature unit be chosen such that 1 joule into a kg of water resulted in one degree rise.  Call that unit a Degm and it would equal 380 degrees C.  Not necessarily a convenient size for deciding whether to wear a jacket or not, but the scaling prefixes come to the rescue here.  Daily usage would be in milliDegm.  Normal room temperature would be about 780 mDegm.  A day when you would start to think about ice skating would be 718 mDegm.  And for those in desert climates those scorching hot days would be about 850 mDegm.

Why isn't the whole world attacking such a logical improvement?

Temperature units are maintained in the SI because of tradition, but they are unnecessary, since we know that temperature is related to thermal energy, and we already have a unit for that, the Joule.

However, in the metric system this relation is governed by the Boltzmann constant, which is universal. So 1 K =  1.380 649×10⁻²³ K/J · 1 J. Add 273,15 and you have the ubiquitous degree Celsius. As simple as that.

And that gives you the right to be patronizing and sanctimonious, rude, and ignore actual facts given to you?

Solving this problem is simple. Switch to metric and get your sense of humor back.

And why in EVERY country, there remain things that are NOT metric!!! (It's infuriating how the metric advocates conveniently ignore this truth.)

You still don't get it. No one is ignoring the fact that there are a few things non metric out there. What we are rejecting is the use of this fact to justify the imposition, or at least the maintenance, of customary units.

**yawn**

What can I do? Now it's you that are ignoring a fact. So don't complain when you realize that the resistance of the people in the US to metrication is a world-wide object of derision.

Oh, please, do try and lecture me about the Amish.

And, of course, now that you are an expert in the Amish, my argument is invalid.

Um, no, everywhere that it matters they HAVE ALREADY switched.

The US is metricated where metric makes sense, and imperial where imperial doesn't.

[Addicted2AnalogTek]

I haven't been religiously reading this thread, so what I'm about to say may have been said already here. 

In my mind, there's probably a few major reasons why the U.S. hasn't adopted the metric system.

1) On the industrial level, the cost to convert all manufacturing plants to metric would be huge.
2) As a small example, in my field of work (construction), builders would have to replace many of their tools - from cheap things like tape measures to large expensive saws that have imprinted measurements on guide rails, etc.  National Code Enforcement books, which use Imperial measurements, would need to be rewritten as well.
3) On the individual level, Americans seem to like clinging to the ideology that we lead the world nearly everything and must remain different from the rest of the world. "We're the best, so why should we change to be like you?" - that seems to be the mentality.
Also on the individual level, the American people don't want to be bothered with the challenge of having to convert their world into another system of measurement. This seems to fall in line with why most Americans can't be bothered to learn a second language. They're mostly lazy, set in their ways, think they're the best at everything, and have no interest in being compatible with the rest of the world.

The only U.S. entity that has apparently adopted the Metric System is military R&D and manufacturing, which did so to comply with NATO standards.

Personally I prefer the Metric system and exclusively use it when I'm installing tile as it's much more precise. I'm stuck using Imperial for nearly everything else since everyone else in the construction world around me uses it, as do my material suppliers.

[CatalinaWOW]

Metric certainly doesn't prevent imprecision or confusion.  The metric system you have been touting, the self consistent and easy set of units has NOT been tried and tested for over two centuries.  Although the two basic units, the meter and the kilogram (and the scaling prefixes) are that old, the system is much newer.  The MKS system was introduced in 1889 and SI, the well thought out system was first introduced in 1948.

The metric system has been and will always be a work in progress, once we are constantly improving our knowledge, technology, precision and methods. So the whole history of the system accounts for its present success.

And even today could use some improvement.  The Kelvin and the related Celsius divide freezing and boiling point of water by 100 degrees.  Which may be convenient for something, but it results in a strange quantity for the temperature rise from putting a Joule of energy into a kilogram of water. 0.00263 degrees C.  It would be far more useful to have the metric temperature unit be chosen such that 1 joule into a kg of water resulted in one degree rise.  Call that unit a Degm and it would equal 380 degrees C.  Not necessarily a convenient size for deciding whether to wear a jacket or not, but the scaling prefixes come to the rescue here.  Daily usage would be in milliDegm.  Normal room temperature would be about 780 mDegm.  A day when you would start to think about ice skating would be 718 mDegm.  And for those in desert climates those scorching hot days would be about 850 mDegm.

Why isn't the whole world attacking such a logical improvement?

Temperature units are maintained in the SI because of tradition, but they are unnecessary, since we know that temperature is related to thermal energy, and we already have a unit for that, the Joule.

However, in the metric system this relation is governed by the Boltzmann constant, which is universal. So 1 K =  1.380 649×10⁻²³ K/J · 1 J. Add 273,15 and you have the ubiquitous degree Celsius. As simple as that.

And that gives you the right to be patronizing and sanctimonious, rude, and ignore actual facts given to you?

Solving this problem is simple. Switch to metric and get your sense of humor back.

And why in EVERY country, there remain things that are NOT metric!!! (It's infuriating how the metric advocates conveniently ignore this truth.)

You still don't get it. No one is ignoring the fact that there are a few things non metric out there. What we are rejecting is the use of this fact to justify the imposition, or at least the maintenance, of customary units.

**yawn**

What can I do? Now it's you that are ignoring a fact. So don't complain when you realize that the resistance of the people in the US to metrication is a world-wide object of derision.

Oh, please, do try and lecture me about the Amish.

And, of course, now that you are an expert in the Amish, my argument is invalid.

Um, no, everywhere that it matters they HAVE ALREADY switched.

The US is metricated where metric makes sense, and imperial where imperial doesn't.

I repeat - Metric doesn't prevent misunderstanding.  The numeric value for the Boltzman constant is not a number like pi which is independent of units. 

Also, using your own arguments, America is already metric.  In this last quote you wave off a few odd or legacy uses of older units as irrelevant to the status of metrification, which is where the US is today.

Perhaps the real question is why you want to make such uses illegal in the US?

[boffin]

Fundamentally the only thing is comes down to is arrogance.  We don't want to switch, why should we switch.

You are confusing arrogance and indifference. You are being arrogant. Americans are, for the most part, indifferent: it simply doesn't matter. We don't care.

And of course, you are continuing to repeat the nonsense about American companies forgoing foreign sales due to refusing to switch. Um, no, everywhere that it matters they HAVE ALREADY switched. 

No, I'm not confusing them at all.

What you call indifference (why should we bother), is in reality, arrogance (why should we have to change - we're bigger than you).

[tooki]

You are confusing them still. Indifference means “I don’t care”, not ”why bother” (that’s defeatism, not indifference!). Most Americans simply do not care about it either way, and don’t think about it at all.

You all seem to think that Americans spend their days worrying about their endangered system of units and measures, when in fact most people just don’t give a shit. Arrogance is one potential outcome of giving thought to the matter. But people aren’t giving it any thought.

[SilverSolder]

You are confusing them still. Indifference means “I don’t care”, not ”why bother” (that’s defeatism, not indifference!). Most Americans simply do not care about it either way, and don’t think about it at all.

You all seem to think that Americans spend their days worrying about their endangered system of units and measures, when in fact most people just don’t give a shit. Arrogance is one potential outcome of giving thought to the matter. But people aren’t giving it any thought.

Exactly, which is why introducing a change to metric will be easy when the decision finally gets taken. 

For example, all US stock exchanges converted to decimal pricing in 2001 (previously, you had fractional prices like $12 3/32 and so on).

"By bringing the U.S. into conformity with international practices, decimalization should improve the competitiveness of the U.S. markets" was one of the stated reasons for the project (this one from CEO Grasso).

[bsfeechannel]

I repeat - Metric doesn't prevent misunderstanding. The numeric value for the Boltzman constant is not a number like pi which is independent of units.

After 2019, the Boltzmann constant is a fixed universal value, not a measured quantity. It is just a scaling factor between energy in joules and the temperature in kelvins.

But you can lobby the CGPM to alter its value to 299.150762461×10⁻³⁶ CatalinaWOW/J so that you can create an absolute temperature scale that will certainly be named in your honor and 1 CatalinaWOW = 3.342796093 · 10³³ · 299.150762461 · 10⁻³⁶ · 1 J, being 3.342796093 · 10³³ the approximate number of molecules in 1 kg of water.

Also, using your own arguments, America is already metric.  In this last quote you wave off a few odd or legacy uses of older units as irrelevant to the status of metrification, which is where the US is today.

Nope. What I said is that the existence of A FEW things non metric doesn't justify the maintenance or the imposition of imperial units. In the US MOST of the things are imperial and many of them are required so by force of law. So the US is not in the least bit metric.

The US didn't do its homework, so it can't claim the metrication certificate.

Perhaps the real question is why you want to make such uses illegal in the US?

Perhaps the real question is why is there no ground based on reason for the US not to be metric?

[Cubdriver]

Perhaps the real question is why is there no ground based on reason for the US not to be metric?

Read the answers previously provided to you, earlier in this thread.   

[CatalinaWOW]

Bfees, I am glad you recognize that the Boltzman constant is an arbitrary number, chosen by agreement rather than unique physical properties of the universe.

I have no interest in naming rights.  I am quite sure I don't have primacy on this suggestion.  The change would simplify the lives of students and many others, though for most the benefit would be small or non existent.

I doubt the change will be made because the current system works well and change would cause confusion and many other problems.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  Indicating to me that the whole world exhibits common sense on such matters.

[BFX]

US is metric already.

Why they are using some another metrics is only historical, like here in EU we also still using inches for tubes and so.
It's all because of "do not disturb so much" existing system.

But I think one system is better for all of as and metrics is already done.

[KL27x]

Thread has already covered all this. America and Canada still use imperial for construction industry. That's major. Dunno about the rest of civil engineering in Canada, but the US still uses imperial for most of this stuff. City layouts, bridges, buildings. And building materials. This is not just lumber. It includes structural steel what comes out of the extrusion dies and roller press thingies. Plates, beams, rounds, angle iron, et al. No matter what units you use to describe them, we play with different legos.

I think english units are still used in aerospace, here. NASA changed to metric for space missions, for all measurements and instrumentation. But in airplanes, I am pretty sure we still use foot-lbs of thrust to describe the jets engines, feet for the altitude, and imperial fasteners galore. 

[jmelson]

The only U.S. entity that has apparently adopted the Metric System is military R&D and manufacturing, which did so to comply with NATO standards.

The auto industry converted in the 1980's.  The only imperial things on SOME cars are lugnuts and oil drain plugs.  Oh, yes, the tire/wheel measurements are still based on
imperial units, too.

The aviation industry converted about the same time.  Everything on aircraft structure is metric.

The medical industry converted to metric a LONG time ago, and trashed all that drams and grains stuff.

Everything in the grocery store is marked in both metric and imperial measure.  Alcohol all went metric back in the '80s, too.

A lot of other stuff is moving over to metric, a bit at a time.  Sheet metal seems to have moved over to metric measure, although it may be marked in the closest imperial approximation.

Jon

[KL27x]

The only U.S. entity that has apparently adopted the Metric System is military R&D and manufacturing, which did so to comply with NATO standards.

This is misleading. US gov and its contractors use metric, but many of the things are actually made to imperial dimensions. As described in my previous post, it's partly due to the legos we use, here. This has pervaded our vehicles and weapons platforms. So even if the blueprints are in metric, they often describe imperial sizes.

In the US, it is often the case where it is cheaper to buy and use imperial-dimensioned stock materials. And changing to metric dimensions will only increase the cost. It is often cheaper for a machinist to buy the next size up in imperial and mill/turn it down to make it metric, compared to importing the stock pieces in metric. Again, our legos are different. And we decided to keep them, because they work fine and they're already "in everything," and it's not a major problem even if the numbers get weird when you state them in metric. This lego system is very good and very practical and very efficient and very comprehensive. It's just not in metric. It's practical to keep the system and just change the numbers. And it's also practical in some cases to say, the heck with it; let's just use the imperial system of measurement for this particular job or task. Or even an entire construction industry, as the case may be.

The US military adopting metric for navigation/location/targeting is probably mostly for communication/coordination with NATO allies.

[bsfeechannel]

Bfees, I am glad you recognize that the Boltzman constant is an arbitrary number, chosen by agreement rather than unique physical properties of the universe.

Yes. Energy and temperature used to be based on different macroscopic standards. So the Boltzmann constant had to be measured.

Now that the Boltzmann constant is only a scaling factor, temperature in the SI became defined in terms of energy, so that they are now both based on subatomic standards.

US is metric already.

I find 10 km/h too slow for my taste.

The US military adopting metric for navigation/location/targeting is probably mostly for communication/coordination with NATO allies.

When I hear people saying that the military are using metric, this is what comes to my mind.



When they say that they use imperial, I can't avoid this image.

[KL27x]

So you have a thing for men in uniform?

When I think our military is metric, it means they use maps marked in kilometers rather than miles. And they requisition liters of diesel rather than gallons. And they ask for 20mm Molle webbing rather than 3/4".

[SkyMaster]

...
The aviation industry converted about the same time.  Everything on aircraft structure is metric.
...

Are your sure about that one? 

Among other things, all the fasteners, on a North American aircraft, are imperial.

And the planes still fly straight.

 

[bsfeechannel]

Perhaps the real question is why is there no ground based on reason for the US not to be metric?

Read the answers previously provided to you, earlier in this thread.   

What I like about this thread is that when we say the US is imperial, they say it's metric. When we ask why the US is not metric,  they give us tons or "reasons".

The fun is inexhaustible.

So you have a thing for men in uniform?

What men?

[tooki]

Perhaps the real question is why is there no ground based on reason for the US not to be metric?

Read the answers previously provided to you, earlier in this thread.   

What I like about this thread is that when we say the US is imperial, they say it's metric. When we ask why the US is not metric,  they give us tons or "reasons".

The fun is inexhaustible.

No, that’s only the way that someone who is as dense as Nibbler’s turds would see it.

You’ve been given ample explanations why the US has not gone all-metric (which is what you guys all mean when you say “go metric”), and when we remind you that while the US has not gone ALL-metric, it has in fact gone significantly metric, contrary to your claims, then you claim we are being contradictory.

The question is “why is the US not metric?”, and the answer is: a) it already partially is, and b) for reasons given earlier.

With the added comment that NO COUNTRY ON EARTH IS 100% METRIC, so full metrication is a hypocritical demand anyway.

[KL27x]

The real slap in the face is the rest of the now-metric world didn't have the same situation.

At one point in the manufacturing/machining revolution in the mid 1900's, the US was 6% of the world's population and it was producing over 30% of the world's manufactured good. The only other countries to invest so heavily during this time? Those countries all started this revolution in metric from the start. Namely Germany and Japan and France.

BSFEEchannel, your country is most likely one that just signed up for metric during a regime change. Just another country choosing a side. The US is one of those two sides from the start.

[bsfeechannel]

No, that’s only the way that someone who is as dense as Nibbler’s turds would see it.

You’ve been given ample explanations why the US has not gone all-metric (which is what you guys all mean when you say “go metric”), and when we remind you that while the US has not gone ALL-metric, it has in fact gone significantly metric, contrary to your claims, then you claim we are being contradictory.

The question is “why is the US not metric?”, and the answer is: a) it already partially is, and b) for reasons given earlier.

With the added comment that NO COUNTRY ON EARTH IS 100% METRIC, so full metrication is a hypocritical demand anyway.

No, the US has not gone "significantly" metric. That's what this thread is all about. In "significantly" metricated countries, customary units are DEPRECATED. You seem not to understand what this means.

In the US, customary units are EVERYWHERE.

So, is the US metric? Answer: a resounding NO! Why? Because the US betted on the wrong horse. They didn't anticipate the benefits of a universal system of units tailored for a globalized industrial world.

Period.

[KL27x]

So, is the US metric? Answer: a resounding NO! Why? Because the US betted on the wrong horse. They didn't anticipate the benefits of a universal system of units tailored for a globalized industrial world.

Period.

The US entered a period of rapid growth and expansion of its manufacturing capabilities at the time when metric was still a premie what almost died even in France.

The US made every effort to make USC consistent and standard across its borders, and it proceeded to build a universal system of THINGS for manufacturing using the horse what brought it. Who cares what the measuring system is? This is a massive pyramid of physical capital/tooling/instrumentation, inventory, workflow, and marketplace. It makes perfect sense that USC continues to be useful here in light of these "legos" in many/most cases were dimensioned to nice numbers in USC.

Beyond 3rd grade school, we pretty much don't even teach USC in school. Our civil engineers and construction workers mostly learn to work with imperial on the job. USC is useful because of what has already happened, but it is not essential to learn it. If you learn in school to do calculations in just metric, that is good enough.

The odd thing to some of yous is most of us accept to live by imperial. To frame our experience in it. If you moved to the US in say 10th grade, you would no doubt be a stickler and to use only metric in your own head and life as much as possible. 




... That would last a year, tops. Then 99% of you would use imperial. Same way if you like grilled onions on your InNOut Burger, you will eventually start calling it "animal style," mostly because everyone else does it, and the employees seem to enjoy when you say it to them. (And also, you will probably get tired of other customers and/or employees "letting you in on the secret" everytime you ask for grilled onions. You will just get tired of being the odd man out who draws special treatment/attention. I imagine something similar for "that guy" who unnecessarily uses metric in America in situations where it is obviously not more convenient. Like asking the gas station guy to fill your tires to 280 millipascals.) If you live in the US, imperial is practical. Everyone else knows it and uses it. And you would also find that it works fine for almost everything.

We COULD change everything to metric at an enormous cost (and 50 to 100 years or so). We rather use a calculator and 25.4 in the fringe cases where we need to use metric. We would probably be fine with this forever.

[bsfeechannel]

The US entered a period of rapid growth and expansion of its manufacturing capabilities at the time when metric was still a premie what almost died even in France.

The reasons for the US to have chosen imperial instead of metric are irrelevant now. Metric eventually won and imperial lost, as predicted by Laplace.

As for the cost, if properly done, it will have minimal financial impact, as it was shown in this thread, but I don't want to delve into that subject, because that's not my homework to do. The world has done theirs, and we are all glad that the world is metric.

[tooki]

No, the US has not gone "significantly" metric. That's what this thread is all about. In "significantly" metricated countries, customary units are DEPRECATED. You seem not to understand what this means.

In the US, customary units are EVERYWHERE.

So, is the US metric? Answer: a resounding NO! Why? Because the US betted on the wrong horse. They didn't anticipate the benefits of a universal system of units tailored for a globalized industrial world.

Period.

Yes, it has. This has been explained and documented to you ad infinitum in this thread, why won’t it go through your thick skull?

Yes, in USA, customary units are (almost) everywhere — but so is metric. This has been explained to you repeatedly.  My guess is that you haven’t even lived in USA before, maybe not even visited for an extended period. So you’re just guessing at how it works there.

I am American, grew up half in USA and half in Switzerland, and my adult life has also been equally divided. So I have a pretty good idea what it’s like in both systems. Is Europe more metric than USA? Definitely. But USA uses metric a lot. I wouldn’t say “most” yet, but it’s way more than you acknowledge. Pounding your fist and blowing your sphincter won’t make your prejudiced delusions any truer.

P.S. Just to be clear, “significantly” does not imply predominance. It simply means “not negligible” or “meaningful”. And in that sense, the US most definitely has had significant adoption of metric.

As for the cost, if properly done, it will have minimal financial impact, as it was shown in this thread, but I don't want to delve into that subject, because that's not my homework to do. The world has done theirs, and we are all glad that the world is metric.

It’s been laid out for you in excruciating detail that it’s NOT “minimal” cost, it’s actually a horrendous cost, and also adds a lot of risk during transition. Again, stop being so thick.

[KL27x]

As for the cost, if properly done, it will have minimal financial impact, as it was shown in this thread

Tooki is being nice. For you to state this like a fact, you're just a total moron. If it has been "shown in this thread," you can quote it so we can make fun of this conclusion, again.

You're talking about every business involved with selling things listed by dimensions having to change their website to metric. 20x10" air filter? Nope, try again. You're talking about every business carrying inventory of structural/engineering materials and tools and parts to have to carry double the number of items. Think steel supply as an example, which is a warehouse of 100's of tons of pieces parts in 100's of sizes. Now they have to carry double the number of unique items. And they will have to increase their pricing to cover the extra labor and retail space. For just the next 100 years, because of all the $billions in stuff which still needs the old parts. We haven't even gotten to extra hassle and costs of individual home owners. Or road signs.

This will require massive coordination, which itself costs time and $$$$$$. And it will still have ongoing cost/inefficiencies/redundancies for 100 years, even if there are some individual "winners" who make more money during this mess.