why is the US not Metric

[forrestc]

https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-sleeve-bearings
is the link to the McMaster-Carr directory for Oilite bearings (which is what bfees says he was buying).  They stock many, many sizes of such bearings in both Imperial and Metric sizes.  Most cost under $2.00, quite a few are under $1.00.  Prices on both the metric and imperial follow a similar pattern, with standard sizes having relatively low prices and a few odd ball sizes priced in the range that bfees mentioned.

I posted a similar link.

bfees seems to have picked what he wants to from that post, ignoring the convenient table which shows the SAE/Imperial sizes being around the same price.   

The more I hear from him, the more I recognize all the signs of someone who has bought into a worldview and refuses to consider any evidence to the contrary.  For instance, he believes that SAE bearings cost more than metric ones, yet when provided a link showing that they're roughly the same cost, he ignores the facts.   This happens over and over.

I'm ok with having a reasonable discussion with someone as far as trying to understand what actually is the situation:  The US is not as non-metric as everyone thinks, metric countries are further along, but also not all as metric as everyone thinks.   There are interesting contradictions throughout.  Flight levels are in feet.  Houses in Canada are built in inches, and the standards that they have to comply with are apparently all based on inches, but the actual texts contain the metric equivalents.   I understand road signs in the UK are in miles.   And so on and on.  Yet somehow the US continues to be the only country that isn't metric because we haven't changed everything to metric.   

But bfees seems to not be able to carry on a reasonable discussion in this manner, but instead resorts to dogmatisim.

[SilverSolder]

Another way to look at this issue is to think about what the situation will be like 100 years from now...   will the world have converged more,  continuing the ever accelerating trend we have seen for hundreds of years?  It seems a safe bet...

[Cubdriver]

https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-sleeve-bearings
is the link to the McMaster-Carr directory for Oilite bearings (which is what bfees says he was buying).  They stock many, many sizes of such bearings in both Imperial and Metric sizes.  Most cost under $2.00, quite a few are under $1.00.  Prices on both the metric and imperial follow a similar pattern, with standard sizes having relatively low prices and a few odd ball sizes priced in the range that bfees mentioned.

I posted a similar link.

bfees seems to have picked what he wants to from that post, ignoring the convenient table which shows the SAE/Imperial sizes being around the same price.   

The more I hear from him, the more I recognize all the signs of someone who has bought into a worldview and refuses to consider any evidence to the contrary.  For instance, he believes that SAE bearings cost more than metric ones, yet when provided a link showing that they're roughly the same cost, he ignores the facts.   This happens over and over.

I'm ok with having a reasonable discussion with someone as far as trying to understand what actually is the situation:  The US is not as non-metric as everyone thinks, metric countries are further along, but also not all as metric as everyone thinks.   There are interesting contradictions throughout.  Flight levels are in feet.  Houses in Canada are built in inches, and the standards that they have to comply with are apparently all based on inches, but the actual texts contain the metric equivalents.   I understand road signs in the UK are in miles.   And so on and on.  Yet somehow the US continues to be the only country that isn't metric because we haven't changed everything to metric.   

But bfees seems to not be able to carry on a reasonable discussion in this manner, but instead resorts to dogmatisim.

Not long before you posted your link, I'd actually done a screen cap of part of that very table and drafted a post with it inserted (so that he'd not even need to follow a link) pointing out the very similar prices for similar sizes.  I then decided that I was done feeding the troll - that's all he really is at this point in this thread (at least in my opinion), given that he ignores anything that logically explains the present state of metrification in the US then reiterates his arrogant holier-than-thou talking points about how backwards we all are for not 'seeing the light' and converting everything, now, because reasons.  Every point has been made and remade, only to be brushed off or dismissed as insufficient. Let's just ignore him, and let him yell at nothing.  Eventually he may get tired of no longer getting a rise out of people here, and go away.

-Pat

[KL27x]

  I believed it was true, at least for ball bearings. Just from hearing his complaint, I assumed there was truth to it. I have never actually found an imperial ball bearing in anything, in my own stuff, but now I'm sure it's just because everything I own is designed and in China, Germany, Japan, or US, then made in China or Malaysia for a world market. I suppose the stuff designed to be manufactured and built here would be more likely to use imperial bearings, but that doesn't include a lot of consumer-grade things, in my life experience.

But I'm totally busted. I made up a bunch of crap in a counter argument.   

[tooki]

Yes, let’s take everything that’s non-metric and put it in the trash. That should free up lots of space in museums and older cities. Tear down everything that’s not metric!

Do you see the light?

You haven't. You are perpetuating the problem you are crusading against. You're the one who restored this old drill rather than properly disposing of this imperial garbage. You cling to an old drill that can be replaced for under $20.00. But you want Americans to throw away a lot more.

I would give him respect for fixing an old drill...  I've gone through at least half a dozen china drills (dewalt, milwaukee, and an off brand or two) in the past 10-15 years, meanwhile my 80's black and decker still runs like a champ... It's rather ridiculous!

You missed the point: if not for the US's "backwardness", he would not have been able to repair it at all. He wants to eat his cake and have it, too.

[KL27x]

The more important point, IMO, is he is keeping imperial alive in his own home. He could have replaced that drill with the new, shiny, all-metric drill and not looked back. But that old drill had some value to him, for some reason. Possibly beyond the value of its utility as a tool.

But he expects 350 million people in the US (and how many more in other countries including Canada and UK) to scrap greater things, physical and cultural, in order that his great great grandchildren might own only one set of wrenches and be able to order 300 grams of mac and cheese when they visit the US.

;;;;;;;;;;
Now bsfee's rotation is getting smaller, now that his bearing issue is totally debunked forwards, backwards, upside down. It was fabricated from the start. At least he still has his washing machine screws to complain about.

[nigelwright7557]

For pcb's things are in both in the UK.
An inch is 25.4mm as a rough rule.

[angrybird]

I guess I do not understand his frustration.  Having been a certified master mechanic (USA/ASE) for more than 2 decades and preferring old cars, I've always had both sets of tools and only see it as an advantage... I love fixing old stuff, old stuff is usually imperial, and since the past is the past, there isn't really any point in arguing about changing it 

In my experience, it's only really necessary to have a small subset of imperial tools (certain length sockets/basic hand wrenches and few specialty tools) and everything else is universal.  It doesn't bother me to have stock of both metric and imperial hardware... The more hardware I have, the more I can fix 

[nigelwright7557]

I guess I do not understand his frustration.  Having been a certified master mechanic (USA/ASE) for more than 2 decades and preferring old cars, I've always had both sets of tools and only see it as an advantage... I love fixing old stuff, old stuff is usually imperial, and since the past is the past, there isn't really any point in arguing about changing it 

In my experience, it's only really necessary to have a small subset of imperial tools (certain length sockets/basic hand wrenches and few specialty tools) and everything else is universal.  It doesn't bother me to have stock of both metric and imperial hardware... The more hardware I have, the more I can fix 

In the UK working on older cars also requires a set of Whitworth sockets and spanners too.

[Zero999]

For pcb's things are in both in the UK.
An inch is 25.4mm as a rough rule.

An inch is exactly 25.4mm

I guess I do not understand his frustration.  Having been a certified master mechanic (USA/ASE) for more than 2 decades and preferring old cars, I've always had both sets of tools and only see it as an advantage... I love fixing old stuff, old stuff is usually imperial, and since the past is the past, there isn't really any point in arguing about changing it 

In my experience, it's only really necessary to have a small subset of imperial tools (certain length sockets/basic hand wrenches and few specialty tools) and everything else is universal.  It doesn't bother me to have stock of both metric and imperial hardware... The more hardware I have, the more I can fix 

I can understand how having a wide range of sizes of tools and hardware is fun for a hobbyist/semi-professional, or handy for someone who repairs a wide range of equipment, but it does increase costs in a large organisation, such as a volume manufacturer. Stocking the smallest possible range of parts and tools, optimises efficiency, because less space is required for storage and things can be purchased in larger volume.

[ebastler]

An inch is 25.4mm as a rough rule.

What would the less rough rule be then, in your opinion? ;-)

[angrybird]

I guess I do not understand his frustration.  Having been a certified master mechanic (USA/ASE) for more than 2 decades and preferring old cars, I've always had both sets of tools and only see it as an advantage... I love fixing old stuff, old stuff is usually imperial, and since the past is the past, there isn't really any point in arguing about changing it 

In my experience, it's only really necessary to have a small subset of imperial tools (certain length sockets/basic hand wrenches and few specialty tools) and everything else is universal.  It doesn't bother me to have stock of both metric and imperial hardware... The more hardware I have, the more I can fix 

In the UK working on older cars also requires a set of Whitworth sockets and spanners too.

I have the full set of stahlwille offset ring spanners, these are by far my most favorite hand wrench 

For pcb's things are in both in the UK.
An inch is 25.4mm as a rough rule.

An inch is exactly 25.4mm

I guess I do not understand his frustration.  Having been a certified master mechanic (USA/ASE) for more than 2 decades and preferring old cars, I've always had both sets of tools and only see it as an advantage... I love fixing old stuff, old stuff is usually imperial, and since the past is the past, there isn't really any point in arguing about changing it 

In my experience, it's only really necessary to have a small subset of imperial tools (certain length sockets/basic hand wrenches and few specialty tools) and everything else is universal.  It doesn't bother me to have stock of both metric and imperial hardware... The more hardware I have, the more I can fix 

I can understand how having a wide range of sizes of tools and hardware is fun for a hobbyist/semi-professional, or handy for someone who repairs a wide range of equipment, but it does increase costs in a large organisation, such as a volume manufacturer. Stocking the smallest possible range of parts and tools, optimises efficiency, because less space is required for storage and things can be purchased in larger volume.

True, however large volume manufacturers are usually focused on a product which is either metric -or- imperial, not both, in my experience - would you agree?  Even if you talk about machining, my experience is that a majority of machinists are operating in the metric domain, and resolutions are fine enough that imperial-dimensioned parts can easily be created with a metric setup.  My bridgeport clone is setup w/linuxCNC and imperial dimensioning right now and I have no problem switching to metric, it's all just software vs. the resolution of my encoders which are beyond what is needed to do either.

[vk6zgo]

I guess I do not understand his frustration.  Having been a certified master mechanic (USA/ASE) for more than 2 decades and preferring old cars, I've always had both sets of tools and only see it as an advantage... I love fixing old stuff, old stuff is usually imperial, and since the past is the past, there isn't really any point in arguing about changing it 

In my experience, it's only really necessary to have a small subset of imperial tools (certain length sockets/basic hand wrenches and few specialty tools) and everything else is universal.  It doesn't bother me to have stock of both metric and imperial hardware... The more hardware I have, the more I can fix 

In the UK working on older cars also requires a set of Whitworth sockets and spanners too.

Luxury!
Really old UK cars used BSF bolts, too, & on the starter battery connection some models used the delightful
"Lucas thread"!

[angrybird]

Oh wow I've never worked on anything like that... "Old" to me is 80's and 90's... Stuff older than that is what I call "VERY PREMIUM PRICES" 

[bsfeechannel]

Holy smokes, I had to call the fire department on that one.

LOL.

I guess I do not understand his frustration.

Nah. I'm not frustrated with anything. I even wrote a song. Do you want to hear it? It goes like that:

I got rhythm, I got music
I got metric
Who could ask for anything more?

I love fixing old stuff, old stuff is usually imperial, and since the past is the past, there isn't really any point in arguing about changing it 

You said it all. Imperial is the past. Metric is the future. You are a man of vision.

[KL27x]

I got rhythm, I got music
I got metric
Who could ask for anything more?

Humans wishing to experience this in the intended melody and cadence of Metroid Prime? Copypasta here, and press play.
http://onlinetonegenerator.com/voice-generator.html

This gives it that... timeless quality.

It's not bad, but try this one.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Who needs rhythm? Who needs rhyme? When we have metric and Syrian time.

Bounce. Bounce. Bounce kilometerage. Bounce. Bounce. Bounce kilometerage. Bounce. Bounce. Bounce. Hammer time.

Metric is the future. Miles are the past. Meters are the speed of light, and that's pretty fast.

Now dance.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 

[TimFox]

I may have posted this already, but the best musical setting of the metric system is in “L’enfant et les sortileges” by Ravel.  Of course, it was easy to write, since metric units rhyme in French.  (Libretto by Colette.)

[bsfeechannel]

For instance, he believes that SAE bearings cost more than metric ones, yet when provided a link showing that they're roughly the same cost, he ignores the facts.   This happens over and over.

Nope. I said, but you didn't pay attention, that imperial bearings in the US are more expensive than metric elsewhere, not in the US.

So the McMaster-Carr link is irrelevant because it compares both imperial and metric in the US. But if you want an explanation why metric is more expensive than imperial, it is simple. McMaster-Carr has to maintain a redundant stock, both in metric and the equivalent imperial. Stock costs money. So you pay more for both metric and imperial. But metric is more expensive because it is in more demand than imperial, since imperial is being phased out and metric is now the standard in the industry.

Metricated countries are not subject to this burden. They don't need to maintain redundant stocks of anything. So they can have metric even cheaper than in the US.

You see? When you move from subjective to objective explanations, everything starts to make sense.

The US is not as non-metric as everyone thinks, metric countries are further along, but also not all as metric as everyone thinks.   There are interesting contradictions throughout.  Flight levels are in feet.  Houses in Canada are built in inches, and the standards that they have to comply with are apparently all based on inches, but the actual texts contain the metric equivalents.   I understand road signs in the UK are in miles.   And so on and on.  Yet somehow the US continues to be the only country that isn't metric because we haven't changed everything to metric.

Tu quoque fallacy. Argument rejected.

But bfees seems to not be able to carry on a reasonable discussion in this manner, but instead resorts to dogmatisim.

I follow the inflexible rules of logic. Call it dogmatism if you like.

[boffin]

& on the starter battery connection some models used the delightful "Lucas thread"!

That was the brilliantly engineered thread that always stopped working when it rained, right ?

[DBecker]

& on the starter battery connection some models used the delightful "Lucas thread"!

That was the brilliantly engineered thread that always stopped working when it rained, right ?

Lucas had challenges with metallurgy.  They didn't put any effort into selecting connector alloys or contact configurations.

By comparison Bell Labs had an extensive academic research program.  There were hundreds of variations of just relay contacts, and extensive rules about selecting contact materials and geometries.  The result was wiring and electrical systems that lasted decades when exposed to weather extremes.

[vk6zgo]

& on the starter battery connection some models used the delightful "Lucas thread"!

That was the brilliantly engineered thread that always stopped working when it rained, right ?

No, that would be the solder lug that connected to it, but that's another story!

Most of the Lucas starters  used a so-called "Bendix screw" system to engage with the ring gear.
Oh boy! Did they ever get screwed by Bendix!

The damn thing would jam in contact with the ring gear ----- sometimes you could get it to unjam without removing it, but other times, you had to take the starter out.

As this usually happened when you were not in a nice neat workshop, the Lucas nut on the connecting lead would fall down, bounce around in the"guts" of the engine compartment, & skitter off somewhere in the dirt.

A newbie would just think it was either a Whitworth, BSF, or UNF nut & go sifting through their junkbox, trying one nut after another.
None would work, so it was back to grovelling atound on the ground till you found it.

To add insult to injury, some of their models of starter did use normal UNF threads!
They were like Forrest Gump's "box of chocolates" ----you never knew what you would get!

[vk6zgo]

& on the starter battery connection some models used the delightful "Lucas thread"!

That was the brilliantly engineered thread that always stopped working when it rained, right ?

Lucas had challenges with metallurgy.  They didn't put any effort into selecting connector alloys or contact configurations.

By comparison Bell Labs had an extensive academic research program.  There were hundreds of variations of just relay contacts, and extensive rules about selecting contact materials and geometries.  The result was wiring and electrical systems that lasted decades when exposed to weather extremes.

What I never understood about Lucas was how they could never learn from their competitor's work.
There is a lot of nonsense spoken these days about IP, but unless you make an actual clone, there is very little stopping you incorporating some other manufacturer's good ideas into your own device.

In Oz, for years, most car makers standardised on Bosch Electrical systems, mainly because of the difficulties everybody had with Lucas.
Standardisation worked well for owners-- I could buy a set of points for an older Holden that also fitted my 1972 Renault 12.

Ironically, standardisation should have been a winner for Lucas, as they were OEM suppliers to most of the UK auto industry, but the general crappiness of their products ruined that.

[SilverSolder]

& on the starter battery connection some models used the delightful "Lucas thread"!

That was the brilliantly engineered thread that always stopped working when it rained, right ?

Lucas had challenges with metallurgy.  They didn't put any effort into selecting connector alloys or contact configurations.

By comparison Bell Labs had an extensive academic research program.  There were hundreds of variations of just relay contacts, and extensive rules about selecting contact materials and geometries.  The result was wiring and electrical systems that lasted decades when exposed to weather extremes.

What I never understood about Lucas was how they could never learn from their competitor's work.
There is a lot of nonsense spoken these days about IP, but unless you make an actual clone, there is very little stopping you incorporating some other manufacturer's good ideas into your own device.

In Oz, for years, most car makers standardised on Bosch Electrical systems, mainly because of the difficulties everybody had with Lucas.
Standardisation worked well for owners-- I could buy a set of points for an older Holden that also fitted my 1972 Renault 12.

Ironically, standardisation should have been a winner for Lucas, as they were OEM suppliers to most of the UK auto industry, but the general crappiness of their products ruined that.

I spoke with some retired Lucas people in Britain years ago...   they blamed short sighted management, and an unwillingness to invest.  They felt this was a big part of the downfall of the indigenous British automotive industry in general - an attitude of respect for money, but not enough respect for (or understanding of) real engineering and manufacturing skills.  That's what they told me, and they lived it - so they probably knew.

[SeanB]

Lucas is great quality wise, for the real auto electrical dodgy stuff you need to go to the boot of Europe, and Magnetto Marelli They seem to have a patent on the contact breaker, as all of their products incorporates at least one.

[chickadee]

Lucas is great quality wise, for the real auto electrical dodgy stuff you need to go to the boot of Europe, and Magnetto Marelli They seem to have a patent on the contact breaker, as all of their products incorporates at least one.

They do a lot more than contact breakers, and though I can't speak to their contact breaker (we call them "points" in the USA) quality, their electrical system design seems to be excellent! I work with their Torino location regularly!