why is the US not Metric

[KL27x]

I disagree that arrogance is a valid reason. It's not arrogance, it's size/scale.

France created metric because they didn't have any standard. "In France alone, it was estimated at that time that at least 250,000 different units of weights and measures were in use during the Ancien Régime." They also converted to metric during a revolution. So they had a complete mess of different standards, they had the power to simply kill tens of thousands of dissident voices. When the new regime takes property and business away from the old regime and hands it to the winning side, "here ya go, all this is now yours, but please use metric." That is easy; and they still had a massive backlash. We can't just kill and take stuff away from people in a peaceful transition. We have to pay these people. 

This spread through the EU, and it makes sense. There were similar problems in some of those countries. The French metric system was the first standard to gain enough traction (through blood) for all these other little countries to be able to agree... ok, let's all use that. And Europe has highly connected, relatively small countries with a lot of trade and travel. If half the continent uses metric, and there are 10 other countries left that had an actual standard to begin with, they are now the odd man out. When you can ride your horse through 3-4 different measuring systems in a day, that can cause problems.

There is no logical reason for the US to ever change to metric. This is like expecting US to change language to Spanish. It costs money to change to metric. All of the imperial standards are defined and derived from metric, and we have calculators, so there's almost no reason to do that or for anyone in or outside of the US to care.

Road signs. Car odometers. Gas station pumps. Measuring equipment. Mill beds. Lathe gearing for cutting threads. Websites and product descriptions. US is big enough where it doesn't make sense to change all this stuff. Why bother? After you have done all that, what did you achieve that makes you so happy?

And this doesn't even include the mess of special interest groups/industries that are unequally affected and are now in line to receive compensation for their greater burden/cost. I'm sure nothing will go wrong, there.

[tooki]

Not sure if you were commenting on my comment, but when I said “arrogance”, I was giving it as the explanation why people attack the US over its lack of metrication, but expressly rejecting it as a valid reason.

[soldar]

I disagree that arrogance is a valid reason.

France created metric because they didn't have any standard. "In France alone, it was estimated at that time that at least 250,000 different units of weights and measures were in use during the Ancien Régime." They also converted to metric during a revolution. This spread through the EU, and it makes sense. There were similar problems in some of those countries. And Europe has highly connected, relatively small countries with a lot of trade and travel. If half the continent uses metric, and there are 10 other countries left that had an actual standard to begin with, they are now the odd man out. When you can ride your horse through 3-4 different measuring systems in a day, that can cause problems.

There is no logical reason for the US to ever change to metric. This is like expecting US to change language to Spanish. It costs money to change to metric. All of the imperial standards are defined and derived from metric, and we have calculators, so there's almost no reason to do that or for anyone in or outside of the US to care.

Road signs. Car odometers. Gas station pumps. Measuring equipment. Mill beds. Lathe gearing for cutting threads. Websites and product descriptions. US is big enough where it doesn't make sense to change all this stuff. Why bother? After you have done all that, what did you achieve that makes you so happy?

Now America is the odd man out and the world is smaller and more connected by trade than it ever was. Any American industrial manufacturer using American units is at a disadvantage with a competitor using metric units. American companies that want to remain competitive in the world will have to go metric. they are, in fact, already going metric. And this means having two standards and that costs money. Which means being less competitive.

People, companies, countries, become wealthy not by sticking to the past but by adapting to the future.

America is big but it is part of the world and cannot shut itself from the world without suffering serious damage. Believing otherwise is seriously arrogant and seriously ignorant.

[KL27x]

^By that argument we should all adopt the Spanish language and use one currency.

America's trade problems have little to nothing to do with units of measurement, IMO.

Now America is the odd man out

We know that, and we're fine with doing conversions to do business with other nations. We will buy Chinese steel by the ton or metric ton or however else you want to measure stuff.

[tooki]

Now America is the odd man out and the world is smaller and more connected by trade than it ever was. Any American industrial manufacturer using American units is at a disadvantage with a competitor using metric units. American companies that want to remain competitive in the world will have to go metric. they are, in fact, already going metric. And this means having two standards and that costs money. Which means being less competitive.

People, companies, countries, become wealthy not by sticking to the past but by adapting to the future.

America is big but it is part of the world and cannot shut itself from the world without suffering serious damage. Believing otherwise is seriously arrogant and seriously ignorant.

And as people have said in this thread umpteen times: everywhere it makes sense to switch, USA has switched, or is in the process. Not every industry, and not every company, imports or exports. But the ones that do are mostly moving to metric, because it makes sense for them.

What is arrogant is for metric fans to think that metric is ALWAYS what makes sense. It’s not. For many items, the US market is so huge that the Chinese factories need dedicated production lines anyway, so setting them up to make US-unit products incurs no significant cost. (And they likely did it decades ago.) Or the customary units have to be maintained for compatibility. For example, we couldn’t just change the screws used to attach the cover plates to wall switches and outlets, because of compatibility. But since we don’t export those to metric countries anyway, there is literally zero incentive to change them to metric. (Even in Central America, which uses NEMA outlets and 120V, they don’t use US brands of switches, they have their own. So US companies aren’t selling to them, whether made in USA or China.)

^By that argument we should all adopt the Spanish language and use one currency.

America's trade problems have little to nothing to do with units of measurement, IMO.

Absolutely.

[KL27x]

What we should be doing is teaching simple math and how to do a basic conversion. When an American buys a product from EU or China that is expressed in metric, some of us have to do a conversion to make sense of it. But if we are shopping for the best price, we will do it. The dummies that can't, well that's their problem.

everywhere it makes sense to switch, USA has switched, or is in the process.

This. People in America use metric when is makes their life easier and/or reduces their costs. They don't pay extra in order to be "compliant" to one standard or another for no other reason other than to make someone on the internet happy. Americans are already fine with grams and liters and mL. But the cost to change over everything by government mandate would be stupidly expensive. And we already teach our kids both systems, not just imperial. We don't do physics in horsepowers and inches.

Which, come to think of it, how does EU express a car's power? In kW?

[bsfeechannel]

This is like expecting US to change language to Spanish.

Well, the languages spoken where the US is now changed to English, didn't they? Anything can happen.

It costs money to change to metric.

What buggers people are statements like that. If less affluent countries could afford the change why can't the "largest economy" in the world?

There's no logic in that.

All of the imperial standards are defined and derived from metric, and we have calculators, so there's almost no reason to do that or for anyone in or outside of the US to care.

That argument is even more logically troublesome. If in fact the system is already metric, why convert to imperial just to have to convert it back to metric? Just because people want to have fun with their calculators?

To someone outside the US, and I guess, to many inside, this doesn't make sense at all.

I guess people are not expecting or trying to convince the US to go metric. What questions like the one posted by the OP are trying to do is to solve those contradictions. And up to now they were not resolved.

[Black Phoenix]

Which, come to think of it, how does EU express a car's power? In kW?

Yup, at least in the Portuguese Vehicle Identification Document that as I know is a European Document Standard for that use, the power of the car is expressed in kW but in ads on even during normal conversation the power of a motor is expressed in CV.

[vk6zgo]

What we should be doing is teaching simple math and how to do a basic conversion. When an American buys a product from EU or China that is expressed in metric, some of us have to do a conversion to make sense of it. But if we are shopping for the best price, we will do it. The dummies that can't, well that's their problem.

everywhere it makes sense to switch, USA has switched, or is in the process.

This. People in America use metric when is makes their life easier and/or reduces their costs. They don't pay extra in order to be "compliant" to one standard or another for no other reason other than to make someone on the internet happy. Americans are already fine with grams and liters and mL. But the cost to change over everything by government mandate would be stupidly expensive. And we already teach our kids both systems, not just imperial. We don't do physics in horsepowers and inches.

Which, come to think of it, how does EU express a car's power? In kW?

Yes  so does every Metric country!

Businesses in the USA already pay extra to be "compliant" with a lot of other standards, most of which are measured in Metric terms by their very nature, & indeed, some originated in that country.
Apart from the "biggie", which is retooling, there is no "extra" payment.

"Extra cost for compliance" implies an ongoing payment.
Unless the component already has to comply to some standard, such as the necessity for "high tension" bolts, at its simplest, or for aviation components at its most rigid & hence, complex, it usually doesn't matter.

An 8mm mild steel bolt is an 8mm mild steel bolt, not a whit different from its Imperial (or "customary") friend sitting on the next tray.

And this does happen, India turns out Imperial standard nuts & bolts & the tools to assemble them, by the shipload, so the nuts n' bolts section of Bunnings in Australia typically has more "Whitworth" bolts than Metric. (this in a country that went Metric in the 1970s)

And it desn't matter much in most cases---- If you need to bolt a coulple of pieces of wood together, who cares!

[KL27x]

Never knew that. Per google "cheval vapeur" translates to "horsepower." But 1 cheval vapeur = 0.98592325737265 horsepower. Or 735.2028464127880626 watts. I wonder if this is derived in some way from metric. 

I suppose stating power in kW would make your car look 25% weaker compared to horsepower. But when you use CV? Instant 1.4% increase in number of units vs horsepower.

In the 1800's the average person didn't know how to do math or use an abacus. And riding your horse to the nearest guy with a victorian mechanical calculator might take awhile. We don't need to worry about this, anymore. Anyone can buy scales and measuring equipment accurate to 0.1% for a pittance. And we have caluculators and the internet rather than having to look up conversions in a library. We don't have the trust and communication issues that different standards caused in the 1800's.

[vk6zgo]

my fathers shed had.
imperial AF, metric & whitworth spanners

What! No BSF?
Special points will also be issued for BA.
I could include "Lucas threads" & BSP, but they are thread types  so don't directly count!

that made under the bonnet work interesting.

and then there is today's television sizes
that started out in Imperial then went metric then back to using imperial. 

Yes, but the Metric units were the dreaded "black sheep" of the Metric System----cm!!

The Metrication Board would turn over in their collective grave!

[Black Phoenix]

Never knew that. Per google "cheval vapeur" translates to "horsepower." But 1 cheval vapeur = 0.98592325737265 horsepower. Or 735.2028464127880626 watts. I wonder if this is derived in some way from metric. 

I suppose stating power in kW would make your car look 25% weaker compared to horsepower. But when you use CV? Instant 1.4% increase in number of units vs horsepower.

In the 1800's the average person didn't know how to do math or use an abacus. And riding your horse to the nearest guy with a victorian mechanical calculator might take awhile. We don't need to worry about this, anymore.

Example from BMW Portuguese Website:



There you also see the l/100km fuel consumption and the g/km related with the CO2 emissions.

[KL27x]

Now I'm wondering about recipes. In america, we add a half cup of chopped celery, a teaspoon of vinegar, and a pinch of salt. In EU, you would add 100mL of chopped celery, 5mL vinegar, and 2 grams of salt?

[bsfeechannel]

Now I'm wondering about recipes. In america, we add a half cup of chopped celery, a teaspoon of vinegar, and a pinch of salt. In EU, you would add 100mL of chopped celery, 5mL vinegar, and 2 grams of salt?

I think we're talking about units used in industrial and commercial environments. Units used in recipes are essentially informal. But when necessary they are given in metric:

[KL27x]

Units used in recipes are essentially informal.

But a cup and a teaspoon at least are actual units of measurement, here. Not so sure of a pinch, though.

But when necessary they are given in metric

Same over here! So the problem has already been solved and we can all stop worrying about it!

I think the important thing is that where it's important, people use.... units. It doesn't matter what they are, as long as they are using them. When a pilot calculates how many "fuels" he needs to travel "distance," he needs to use units. Lb's, kg's, liters, w/e, so long as he is using units. If he memorizes 200 distances per fuels, and goes by that, he's an idiot. It's an education problem when that gets screwed up. 

[VK3DRB]

As an American abroad, I get shit from everyone: Americans in USA calling me “eurotrash” (I’m not), British people smugly declaring that Americans don’t speak English (we do), locals complaining about foreigners, and everyone ragging on us about metric. (And until Brexit and AfD showed Europeans that xenophobic right wing paranoia is on their doorstep, we also got Europeans attacking us for our dumb politicians that I, like nearly all Americans abroad, decidedly did not vote for.) I’m tired of it, so I call people out on it, mmkay?

Oddly enough, even though Americans spell words differently to to Australians and English, I have found American engineers on average are generally much better than Aussie engineers with spelling. I lived and worked in the USA over many years, and the difference was quite noticeable. I suspect it is due to a better education in that domain. The dumb US politicians as you say pale into insignificance compared to the pompous British politicians, who are providing plenty of free entertainment for the rest of the world as they turn their crumbling empire into a democratic laughing stock. 

In any case, the imperial system should be retired world-wide. One country, two systems does not work. There is no reason to keep two systems, other than mentally unstable conspiracy theorists living in fear that it is part of the Illuminati's New World Order .

And we should all speak Esperanto . Ĝis (la) revido!

[Simon]

I think the best way to have uniform measurement systems is each industry gradually converts which may already be happening. American spelling from what I have seen simplifies spelling like programme = program which is probably why they are better at spelling.

[soldar]

Years ago I was visiting a family in California and they were measuring the windows for blinds.  The whole family was around the kitchen table trying to solve problems such as:  Window width is 4' 11" and 1/16. We want to leave 3/8" clearance on each side. What blind width do we need to order?

It was fun watching the whole family giving their opinions and guesses. And this for a whole set of different windows and measurements.

These are probably a good representation of Americans who do not want to change to metric because "we are already familiar with the American system".

They probably think that if the system they are familiar with is so difficult, just imagine having to learn a new, foreign, system!

[mansaxel]

Which, come to think of it, how does EU express a car's power? In kW?

"Sufficient" 

More seriously, we have a lot of legacy. My house, built in 1971, has UNC fasteners. TV's are marketed in inches (But the spec sheets are all metric). Carpenters officially have converted, but there is lots of casual talk about 2" by 4" still. Pipes are the BSPT dimensions, but officially, they are labeled with something loosely representing metric.

I have Whitworth, UN AF, BA and metric sockets and threading tools in my workshop. Because my lathe is old enough that even if it was built in Sweden, it's all Whitworth. And my swimming pool is UNC, as is my neighbours boat engine. The RF connectors I use are 3/8" UNF (CB whips and such) or 5/8" UNEF (N connectors and shielded banana plugs, but the flats for tightening them are metric!). Et cetera.

USA would do good to migrate. But it will be a lot of pain, take some time, and the insane right will complain as we saw in the Fox "News" clip upthread (because it gives nods and votes from the ignorant).  Still, I think the outcome will be better for all. Eventually.

[Simon]

a lot of tool based items are still imperial. For example we still sell timber in inches when it comes to fence posts but we can easily approximate to units of 25mm as with a fence post no one cares about 2mm. Most timber is sold in mm and often these are just imperial conversions like 19mm which is 0.75". Lots of tubing we buy at work is marked in mm but is simply inch equivalents. So we buy 19mm tube but it is actually 19.05mm.

I expect in time as old designs die out and are replaced by metric designs with new metric tooling replacing old imperial tooling things will change.

[rsjsouza]

Years ago I was visiting a family in California and they were measuring the windows for blinds.  The whole family was around the kitchen table trying to solve problems such as:  Window width is 4' 11" and 1/16. We want to leave 3/8" clearance on each side. What blind width do we need to order?

That's exactly the crap I had to adjust when I moved here but, as an engineer, that was a great mental exercise.

Things I still have trouble are with volumes and weight. Too many units depending on what you are doing (spoons, fl oz, pints, quarts, gallons, etc.). Add metric to the mix when you have a baby and the mess is complete!

Temperatures are fine, since I quickly learned the ranges where I needed a short sleeve, a long sleeve, a jacket, a coat, etc. That is the kind of resolution necessary for me. Ah, and the meat temperature on the grill. But the indicator is dual standard anyways.

[bsfeechannel]

Years ago I was visiting a family in California and they were measuring the windows for blinds.  The whole family was around the kitchen table trying to solve problems such as:  Window width is 4' 11" and 1/16. We want to leave 3/8" clearance on each side. What blind width do we need to order?

It was fun watching the whole family giving their opinions and guesses. And this for a whole set of different windows and measurements.

These are probably a good representation of Americans who do not want to change to metric because "we are already familiar with the American system".

They probably think that if the system they are familiar with is so difficult, just imagine having to learn a new, foreign, system!

4' 11" and 1/16 is exactly 1.5 m. 3/8" is approximately 10 cm. Piece of cake: 1.7 m - wide minimum blind.

They don't understand that each of those units are in a different numeric base and you have to convert from one base to another to make sense of the calculations.

Inches to a foot are in base 12. Each fraction of an inch is in the base determined by their denominator. So 1/2 is in base 2. 1/4 is in base 4, 1/8 is in base 8, and so on and so forth. And all of that has to be converted to base 10 in the end. And we're not even talking about the conversion to yards, miles and other deprecated units.

Metricated people don't have that problem. Everything is in the same numeric base. It's less one operation you have to take for each unit. Less margin for errors.

Hands down, metric is a superior well thought-out measuring system. Any five-year old kid can see that. I hope the next generations see the value of metrication and relegate this imperial rubbish to where it belongs: the museum.

[Simon]

Years ago I was visiting a family in California and they were measuring the windows for blinds.  The whole family was around the kitchen table trying to solve problems such as:  Window width is 4' 11" and 1/16. We want to leave 3/8" clearance on each side. What blind width do we need to order?

It was fun watching the whole family giving their opinions and guesses. And this for a whole set of different windows and measurements.

These are probably a good representation of Americans who do not want to change to metric because "we are already familiar with the American system".

They probably think that if the system they are familiar with is so difficult, just imagine having to learn a new, foreign, system!

4' 11" and 1/16 is exactly 1.5 m. 3/8" is approximately 10 cm. Piece of cake: 1.7 m - wide minimum blind.

They don't understand that each of those units are in a different numeric base and you have to convert from one base to another to make sense of the calculations.

erm. Well now 3/8" is 10 mm not 10 cm. 1.5 m = 1500 mm, they wanted 10 mm clearance not added so that is 1500 - 10 x 2 = 1480mm

[Simon]

In fact to be more precise 4' 11" is 1.499 m

[bsfeechannel]

But when necessary they are given in metric

Same over here! So the problem has already been solved and we can all stop worrying about it!

I don't think so. When necessary, in the US units are also officially given in imperial, which, today, is just an odd way to count the SI units. As I showed in the previous post, imperial is not even consistent within itself.

As a curiosity, I roamed the net looking for cake recipes all over the world last night, and noted their ingredients.

Chinese
預備食材 Ingredients
4人份 4 servings
   
    奶油（融化）65g Cream
    香蕉2根（壓成蓉） Bananas
    糖60g Sugar
    蛋1只 Egg
    低筋麵粉150g Flour
    泡打粉1茶匙 Baking powder (1 teaspoon)
    鹽半茶匙 Salt (half a teaspoon)

Arab
المكونات: 6 / 8 من الأشخاص
300 ز الطحين
300 ز السكر
البيض 3
300 مل من الحليب
1 ج. إلى ج. من مسحوق الخبز
3 إلى 4 قطرات من مستخلص الفانيليا

Ingredients: 6/8 persons
300 g flour
300 g sugar
Eggs 3
300 ml of milk
1 of baking powder
3 to 4 drops of vanilla extract

Russian
Яйца - 4 шт.
Мука - 120 г
Сахар - 120 г + сахар для крема
Сахар ванильный - 1 ч.л.
Разрыхлитель - 1 ч.л.
Какао-порошок - 1,5 ст.л.
Бананы крупные - 3 шт.
Сметана (20% жирности и более) - 1 большая банка

Eggs - 4
Flour - 120 g
Sugar - 120 g + sugar for cream
Vanilla Sugar - 1 tsp
Baking powder - 1 tsp
Cocoa powder - 1.5 tbsp.
Large bananas - 3 pcs.
Sour cream (20% fat and more) - 1 large jar

Hindi
मैदा_Flour – 250 ग्राम,
कंडेंस्‍ड मिल्‍क_Condensed milk – 200 ग्राम,
शक्कर_Sugar – 100 ग्राम (पिसी हुई),
मक्खन/घी_Butter/Ghee – 100 ग्राम, दूध-200 ग्राम,
कोको पाउडर_Cocoa powder- 50 ग्राम,
अखरोट_Walnut – 02 छोटे चम्मच (महीन कतरा हुआ),
बादाम_Almond – 02छोटे चम्मच (महीन-महीन कतर लें),
काजू_Cashew – 02 छोटे चम्मच (महीन कतर लें),
बेकिंग पाउडर_Baking powder – एक छोटा चम्मच,
बेकिंग सोडा_Baking soda – 1/2 छोटा चम्मच,
नमक_Salt – 1/4 छोटा चम्मच।

Flour - 250 grams,
     Condensed milk - 200 grams,
     Sugar - 100 grams (grounded),
     Butter - 100 grams, milk - 200 grams,
     Cocoa powder- 50 grams,
     Walnuts  - 02 teaspoons (finely chopped),
     Almond - 02 teaspoons (take finely chopped),
     Cashew - 02 teaspoons (finely chopped),
     Baking powder - a small spoon,
     Baking soda 1/2 tsp
     Salt 1/4 tsp.

So, ballpark measures are given in spoons, cups, pinches, etc. The rest is in metric. No one uses pounds, ounces, pints, or whatever.