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| why is the US not Metric |
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| vk6zgo:
--- Quote from: KL27x on November 24, 2019, 07:52:34 pm ---Pretty much. Any furniture grade wood shop will joint and plane practically every hardwood they use. Plywood is made in metric countries to metric spec, but even then it can vary a little batch to batch. So we basically just deal with the fact it's not really 3/4" plywood whenever that matters. Because our 3/4" hardwood boards are actually 3/4". But dowels or metal rounds/tubes? With plywood, you can just cut the slot smaller. Dowels have to fit the hole. Our drill bits being imperial, so follows the material. If the construction industry changed, this would be felt in the machining industry and in engineering/design. Then I think you wait until some years later to change the media, so's when they report it in C with gusts of wind up to kmh (with imperial subtitles), it is not rejected. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; For some reason I woke up with the idea that some people don't intuitively understand what "economy of scale" means as applied to the car industry. Every modern manufacturer has a sophisticated inventory control. When a regional distributor orders 4 red Camrys, a Toyota employee doesn't walk through a warehouse full of Camry's, go to the imperial section, find the "red" row, and drive 4 of these over to the boat. Each car has been ordered before production even starts, and it's the distributors' job to predict and/or influence the future by keeping the order queue filled with the cars that will create the biggest profit based on the figures from all of the dealers. They are tasked with matching supply to demand, ordering the right cars, and getting them to the right place. Maybe the Camry in Rosewine Red with interior S817 and body trim R173 is killing it in the Soutwest; let's get some to our other showrooms; and the memo goes out to the local dealers that this is now in the pipeline to get their salepeople pumped up to move these cars, which they can tell their customers "Gary has sold X of these last month in Texas, and the factory can't keep up; they're very popular." Even when the factory ships these identically kitted 4 red Camrys to the regional distributor, they are not all the same. Each has a unique ID and is a unique order and is handled as such. And they might tailor many of the other options to better suit local market demand, depending where the car is headed to. A large number of factory options, of which there could be dozens, and most of which are way more "permanent" than speed and mileage indicators, are easily managed this way. If you counted all the permutations of a factory Camry, the actual different number of ways to order one could be hundreds of thousands or maybe millions. So this is the only practical way to do it, anyway. When the regional distributor orders their 4 Camrys and ships them out to the local dealers, say 1 of those dealers doesn't manage to sell his red Camry, but a dealer over in Australia wants this exact red Camry. What the cost of imperial is to this situation is that instead of trucking a Camry across the country, putting it on a cargo ship, sailing it over to Australia, clearing customs, and getting it over to the dealer, and dealing with any other country specific changes that have to be done after it arrives? They have to do all that plus change a couple things for mile to km thing. And increasingly today, that would be done by plugging a widget into the ECM and pressing a button. Changing over the car might be an incredibly boring or tedious part of that job, but compare that to: "Ted? Do me a solid and go change all the road signs in America. Come and see me when you're done. I need to speak with you before you go home." --- End quote --- You were the one who was agonising over how much it would cost to change speedos, until I pointed out you didn't have to do that at all, unless US motorist are really dumb. A major problem with your Camry example is that the Oz Camry would be RHD (in Oz & most countries where we drive on the left, the acronym refers to the side the driver sits on). Secondly, it would need to meet Australian Design Rules, which, although similar to US ones, differ in a few important details. Following the end of car making in Australia, it would probably be produced in Thailand, or, perhaps Indonesia, or maybe, even Japan itself, but would be very unlikely to be from the USA, so the dealer in Oz can't get "this exact Red Camry". As it would be designed from scratch for a RHD country, a likely destination could be Australia, New Zealand, India, Sri Lanka, or South Africa, all of which are Metric countries, there would be no conversion cost. If you were making cars in the USA using all non-Metric parts then having to pull them apart, change everything to Metric & send them to Oz, it would be costly, but nobody except you is talking about cars. In the case of the road signs, because, as you were at pains to point out, US citizens are well educated, & able to work seamlessly in both Metric & Customary measures, a longish changeover period would not matter, so ten years sounds reasonable. Of course, if you leave it all to "Ted", it may take a Century or more. By the way, nobody rejoiced or held parades when we Metricated, we just did it! If you really want complexity, try measuring stuff in Imperial, then pricing it out in "Pounds, Shillings, & Pence". |
| Doom-the-Squirrel:
I notice that many fasteners on vehicles are metric. For example, on Cummins engines, you use all metric (at least in my experiences). Would be nice for the US to go metric. Much easier to convert things along the scale. |
| KL27x:
--- Quote from: vk6zgo on November 25, 2019, 03:36:37 am ---You were the one who was agonising over how much it would cost to change speedos, until I pointed out you didn't have to do that at all, unless US motorist are really dumb. --- End quote --- I think the cost for car companies to provide these imperial variants is trivial. And that is why America having imperial road signs and buying cars tohat display miles and degrees F does not cost the world's auto industry anything significant. Did you think I was complaining about the cost for American car owners to change their speedometers after the Great Day arrives? No, that was not my point, at all. --- Quote ---A major problem with your Camry example is that the Oz Camry would be RHD (in Oz & most countries where we drive on the left, the acronym refers to the side the driver sits on). Secondly, it would need to meet Australian Design Rules, which, although similar to US ones, differ in a few important details. Following the end of car making in Australia, it would probably be produced in Thailand, or, perhaps Indonesia, or maybe, even Japan itself, but would be very unlikely to be from the USA, so the dealer in Oz can't get "this exact Red Camry". As it would be designed from scratch for a RHD country, a likely destination could be Australia, New Zealand, India, Sri Lanka, or South Africa, all of which are Metric countries, there would be no conversion cost. --- End quote --- It sounds like people drive on the left hand side of the road in Australia? That's news to me. I first starting typing UK as the example, but I realized they drive left side. Australia, too? Ok, you guys are the ones putting real extra costs/inefficiencies onto the car industry. But yeah, if the car needs too many changes to even be moved to a different market, then the problem of changing meters is even smaller, or you could even say it is nonexistent, now. --- Quote ---Of course, if you leave it all to "Ted", it may take a Century or more. --- End quote --- This (changing road signs) is the kind of project where you can very clearly see the beginning. And if you are a politician, you can confidently state where it will end. But then it doesn't. My point was that Ted could conceivably update the ECM on a cargo hold's worth of cars in a day, even though he might not like it. --- Quote ---If you were making cars in the USA using all non-Metric parts then having to pull them apart, change everything to Metric & send them to Oz, it would be costly, but nobody except you is talking about cars. --- End quote --- This is also news to me. I must be reading a different thread? :-// I suppose the existence of imperial causes a lot of grief in the ruler industry? And maybe all the extra ink wasted in printing labels with metric and imperial on them? Why is America's continued use of imperial spoiling your soup if not for the auto industry? Is this really just about the imperial screw in bsfeechannel's blender? --- Quote ---In the case of the road signs, because, as you were at pains to point out, US citizens are well educated, & able to work seamlessly in both Metric & Customary measures, a longish changeover period would not matter, so ten years sounds reasonable. --- End quote --- Sure. EZ peezy. 10 years to change all our road signs. You have no idea how much highway we have in America. And you don't seem to understand that UK is still not done with their plan made in 1980's? --- Quote ---By the way, nobody rejoiced or held parades when we Metricated, we just did it! --- End quote --- Well, that makes it sound so much more appealing. You get to pat yourSELF on the back? Jolly good job on that. You guys have that part down. If I would be half that happy with myself, I'm ready to vote for Metric America. |
| vk6zgo:
--- Quote from: KL27x on November 25, 2019, 05:24:40 am --- --- Quote from: vk6zgo on November 25, 2019, 03:36:37 am ---You were the one who was agonising over how much it would cost to change speedos, until I pointed out you didn't have to do that at all, unless US motorist are really dumb. --- End quote --- I promise you are mistaken. Quite the opposite, my belief is that it is trivial. You might have misinterpreted one of my posts, and that is understandable because I am sometimes low-key sarcastic. I said something to the effect that changing speedo might double the cost of a Peugot, and that was a joke. And it's not to suggest that Peugots are not well-engineered; it's a reference to the fact they are very economical and small compared to what dominates in the American market for w/e the reasons. --- End quote --- Some posts ago, you were worried about the costs of changing speedos on the existing fleet of vehicles. I pointed out it was not necessary, as Americans are smart enough to learn the important equivalent speeds & interpolate the rest, just as Bruce & Sheila did back in the 1970s. You have since changed your ground slightly. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---A major problem with your Camry example is that the Oz Camry would be RHD (in Oz & most countries where we drive on the left, the acronym refers to the side the driver sits on). Secondly, it would need to meet Australian Design Rules, which, although similar to US ones, differ in a few important details. Following the end of car making in Australia, it would probably be produced in Thailand, or, perhaps Indonesia, or maybe, even Japan itself, but would be very unlikely to be from the USA, so the dealer in Oz can't get "this exact Red Camry". As it would be designed from scratch for a RHD country, a likely destination could be Australia, New Zealand, India, Sri Lanka, or South Africa, all of which are Metric countries, there would be no conversion cost. --- End quote --- It sounds like people drive on the left hand side of the road in Australia? That's news to me. (I first used UK as the example, but I realized they drive left side. Australia, too? Ok, you guys are the ones putting real extra costs onto the car industry). But yeah, if the car needs too many changes to even be moved to a different market, then the problem of changing meters is even smaller or you could even say it is nonexistent. --- End quote --- Yep! So does Japan, which made it convenient in the early days of Japanese car sales to Australia, before ADRs came about. Later, several Japanese companies built cars in this country. Later still, Toyota, & several other companies decided it was cheaper to have RHD cars built in a LHD SE Asian country, rather than Japan. There is no extra cost, as the factories are set up from the start to produce distinct versions for different markets. No meter changing involved. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---Of course, if you leave it all to "Ted", it may take a Century or more. --- End quote --- This (changing road signs) is the kind of project where you can very clearly see the beginning. And if you are a politician, you can confidently state where it will end. But then it doesn't. My point was that Ted could conceivably update the ECM on a cargo hold's worth of cars in a day, even though he might not like it. --- End quote --- My point is that Ted doesn't need to. --- Quote ---If you were making cars in the USA using all non-Metric parts then having to pull them apart, change everything to Metric & send them to Oz, it would be costly, but nobody except you is talking about cars. --- End quote --- --- Quote ---This is also news to me. I must be reading a different thread? :-// --- End quote --- OK, maybe a bit of hyperbole, but you are quite at home with that, aren't you? The fact remains that you were one of the first to bring up cars & roadsigns , & have been pushing that barrow pretty hard ever since. --- Quote ---I suppose the existence of imperial causes a lot of grief in the ruler industry? And maybe all the extra ink wasted in printing labels with metric and imperial on them? What was your argument, again? I can't remember which angle you were playing in this thread, but I do seem to recall that America's continued use of imperial was spoiling your soup. Maybe you can refresh my memory as to your reasons? --- End quote --- Nah! it doesn't bother me------ you must be thinking of six other people. --- Quote ---In the case of the road signs, because, as you were at pains to point out, US citizens are well educated, & able to work seamlessly in both Metric & Customary measures, a longish changeover period would not matter, so ten years sounds reasonable. --- End quote --- --- Quote ---Sure. EZ peezy. 10 years to change all our road signs. You have no idea how much highway we have in America. And you don't seem to understand that UK is still not done with their plan made in 1980's? --- End quote --- I googled, & you have approx 7.5 times the length of road we have, whilst at the same time, you have nearly 13 times our population. It seems to me that your workforce could do it "standing on their heads"! The USA used to be the "can do" country. The UK have their own reasons, unfathomable to me. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---By the way, nobody rejoiced or held parades when we Metricated, we just did it! --- End quote --- Well, that makes it sound so much more appealing. You get to pat yourSELF on the back? Jolly good job on that. You guys have that part down. --- End quote --- It was pretty much a "nothingburger"-------- nobody was thrilled enough to pat themselves on the back. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---If you really want complexity, try measuring stuff in Imperial, then pricing it out in "Pounds, Shillings, & Pence". --- End quote --- Projecting your own country's previous problems onto modern day USA is lots of fun, it seems. If this is not your intent, then I'm also not being a condescending smart-ass and you are just inferring something that is not there. :) --- End quote --- Not my intention at all -----in fact, a bit out of context. It was just to point out that the situation when I was a kid was more nightmarish than you could imagine with your rationalised "imperial" system, & of course, Decimal Currency virtually since the inception of the USA. We had only gone to Decimal Currency 8 years before Metrication. --- Quote --- --- Quote from: Doom-the-Squirrel on November 25, 2019, 04:07:22 am ---I notice that many fasteners on vehicles are metric. For example, on Cummins engines, you use all metric (at least in my experiences). --- End quote --- Yeah. Someone else has already mentioned this. I can't remember the year, but the American auto industry has been completely metric in design stage and fasteners since the early 90's at least. I have only ever owned metric wrenches, myself. --- End quote --- |
| KL27x:
--- Quote from: vk6zgo on November 25, 2019, 07:39:48 am ---Some posts ago, you were worried about the costs of changing speedos on the existing fleet of vehicles. I pointed out it was not necessary, as Americans are smart enough to learn the important equivalent speeds & interpolate the rest, just as Bruce & Sheila did back in the 1970s. You have since changed your ground slightly. --- End quote --- I don't remember doing that. If I did, my bad. I recall making the case that the costs to the auto industry to make imperial cars for America are trivial. --- Quote ---Yep! So does Japan, which made it convenient in the early days of Japanese car sales to Australia, before ADRs came about. Later, several Japanese companies built cars in this country. Later still, Toyota, & several other companies decided it was cheaper to have RHD cars built in a LHD SE Asian country, rather than Japan. There is no extra cost, as the factories are set up from the start to produce distinct versions for different markets. No meter changing involved. --- End quote --- Perfect! Cars with steering column on the other side add zero cost to the world. I will agree with this statement... for now; cuz not really; it means Toyota dealers in UK can't trade cars with Toyota dealers in France, about 20 miles away, so it reduces the flexibility in distribution.* The company also has to design the left-handed version and machine and mold different parts and come up with different assembly procedures. But lessay I agree it is zero cost by whatever stipulations you are adding in order to be able to say that with a straight face. So... I ask you this question. Under these same stipulations, making cars with miles on the dial for the American market costs the car companies about how much, do you think? Ball park figure? Rough guess? Left-hand car costs nothing. Changing km to miles costs what? The drain that America is leaching from society is...? --- Quote ---My point is that Ted doesn't need to. --- End quote --- Right. Ted can change a bunch of cars from imperial to metric readout and back in a day. But we don't need to hire just Ted. We can pay a huge workforce to change our road signs over the course, by your estimate, of 10 years. So that is a bonus? --- Quote ---The fact remains that you were one of the first to bring up cars & roadsigns , & have been pushing that barrow pretty hard ever since. --- End quote --- Yes, the fact remains I am still trying to find out the first actual reason that Americans' usage of imperial could possibly adversely affect the lives of some of the participants in this thread, as has been repeatedly suggested. And? Does this really basically come down to tools and fasteners? If Americans kept the road signs and the imperial car gauges, that would be totally ok, right? We could still use imperial amongst ourselves. We just need to change the tools and screws of the smaller businesses that might do any export to avoid bsfeechannel's fridge problem? Because the major export industries are all completely metric, already, pretty much? --- Quote ---I googled, & you have approx 7.5 times the length of road we have, whilst at the same time, you have nearly 13 times our population. It seems to me that your workforce could do it "standing on their heads"! The USA used to be the "can do" country. The UK have their own reasons, unfathomable to me. --- End quote --- It's probably a lot like our reasons. First world problems are more important to us, now. This keeps us from having to do sweaty manual labor under a hot sun for 12 hour stretches, far out on the road away from home. Unless people pay us a crapload of taxpayer money. :) This is basically called a union. And finishing the job on schedule only means the paychecks stop sooner. This job will give a huge boost to our meth and prostitution industries. "Can do" country sounds nice. But it's awful hard to impress people anymore after you've been credited with winning world wars. It's all downhill from there. :) Yeah, sorry about the quip re: the pence. I must have erased that while you were replying. I figured I might be reading too much into it. Cheers. If this is just an America-bashing club, that's cool. I mean, I could maybe try to do a little better. *This would be like living in Ohio and the car with the color and options you want is in Kentucky. But you can't get it. In America, not only the dealer can have the car brought to his location, you can try to get a better price by calling up the dealer in Kentucky. If he will go cheaper, you can buy it from him and then drive down there with a friend to pick it up. Esp now, I doubt UK/France would work like the latter. But, at least before Brexit, I assume the reasons for being part of the EU would include ability of Toyota to do something like the former fairly easily, if not for the left-hand thing. Being part of the same economic trading block, or w/e you guys call the EU, you'd think this would facilitate the connection between supply and demand in this kind of way. |
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